Re: Top relay question...

$4,800 including a very nice car cover owners manual and windblocker! ....Couldn't pass it up and decided to take a chance!
2 owner, 117K miles, needs top work but basically looks pretty good. Some receipt for recent maintenance in the last year including oil/filter changes, new tires, front pad and rotors, water pump, thermostat and coolant flush, serpentine belt and all rollers. No paintwork, dents or dings and wheels are rash free. All power options work except cruise. Nice cold A/C.

The top will present a challenge as it is not working at all at the moment. Windows do drop when top is unlatched and parking brake light comes on, just no movement from the top. Local indy that looked at the car prior to the PO putting it up for sale noted that it needed a top controller module but I think he was referring to the top relay as he quoted $160 for the part. I haven't taken a look at the issue in any detail at this point.

After a good wash, I a clay bar to the car and am quite pleased at how it looks. This weekend I'll get out the polish and wax.
Other items needing attention is a worn shift boot (ordered new one today)
Rear trunk lifts are worn out and do no support the trunk.
Odometer backlight needs replacing.
Clutch pedal squeaks
Windows work but are noticeably slower than my other 2000 Boxster S
I'm sure I'll discover a few more items but the car runs great and exhibited now weird noises or rattles.

Will post a pics shortly.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Sounds like a fun deal.

Make it more fun by fixing the top:

Before springing for a new double module (a/k/a top relay), first verify that

1) the V-levers haven't "over-rotated" so that they have effectively "pretzeled" themselves, and

2) Test the electric motor that is just forward of the third brake light by a) applying 12V directly to it, and b) smacking it sharply with a small, dense mallet or little hammer (this may dislodge corrosion or that proverbial "dead spot" and may get it spinning again.

When you press the "top open" button, do the headlights dim or is there a sort of "dip" in the brightness of the overhead light, etc... If so, then it's probably the pretzel scenario, or a problem with the resistance in the electric motor.

After all of that,

3) pull off the double module, verify that it has the correct little symbol on it (square black box on the surface that you can see when it's in the relay tray, or small triangle black symbol) Only one is correct, but it's worth checking.

4) Since yours is a '98, a) verify whether you still have the original smooth-sided drive cables (they run from each side of the electric motor out to each of the two transmissions, and b), if so, pull off each one of these cables in turn from where each is inserted into the side of the electric motor (first pull straight up on the upside-down U-Clip that holds them in place against the output flange of the electric motor, then pull that end of the cable straight outboard. Now check to see whether you have the required 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of the inner "speedometer-type" cable (inside the outer vinyl sheath). If you don't, it's because the outer sheath has stretched, effectively making it impossible for the electric motor to drive the cables.

5) Verify that all four mechanical connections (2 for the canvas and frame assembly and 2 for the clamshell) are intact and connected to their respective steel balls ( canvas: plastic ball cup under the B-Pillar large black metal knuckle, and Clamshell (one connection to the black "hydraulic" pushrod and one onto the body-colored support arm that holds the clamshell in position from the face surface UNDER the clamshell.

Good Luck!

Regards, Maurice.

Maurice,
Thanks for the information on the top. I've spent the last day or two searching the posts about tops seen your numerous posts in the past helping folks tsort out their top issues. I've been fortunate with my 2000 in that other than the parking brake switch going bad (I bypassed it anyway), I've had no top problems. I'm sure I'll have some questions in dealing with the 98...

Off the top of my head...
1. The PO stated that the top had always worked well and last year the latch switch went bad. He had the switch replaced and all was well. Recently, when the top quit again, he thought he might have a bad switch again but apparently it is more than that. The windows will drop when you unlatch but that's about it. The PO said the top was going up and down just fine prior to the current problem. Again, the indy he took his car to stated that the relay was bad.

1. I've read that the relay from my 2000 is not compatible with the 1998. Any other way to troubleshoot the relay prior to purchasing another?
2. Have folks had more issues with the top controller or the top relay? It looks like the controller is big bucks compared to the relay.
3. I remember that the Boxster went through a top upgrade back in 99 and Porsche stopped producing parts for the earlier cars...hopefully I'll be able to avoid having top upgrade the expensive bits.
4. What is the preferred lubrication for the cables and mechanical bits?

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Quote
dghii
Maurice,
Thanks for the information on the top. I've spent the last day or two searching the posts about tops seen your numerous posts in the past helping folks tsort out their top issues. I've been fortunate with my 2000 in that other than the parking brake switch going bad (I bypassed it anyway), I've had no top problems. I'm sure I'll have some questions in dealing with the 98...

Off the top of my head...
1. The PO stated that the top had always worked well and last year the latch switch went bad. He had the switch replaced and all was well. Recently, when the top quit again, he thought he might have a bad switch again but apparently it is more than that. The windows will drop when you unlatch but that's about it. The PO said the top was going up and down just fine prior to the current problem. Again, the indy he took his car to stated that the relay was bad.

Note that there are TWO microswitches inside the latch assembly and that one of them causes the windows to drop the requisite 4 inches and the other "allows power to flow to the electric motor". I'll look for something I wrote up on that specific issue and post it as soon as I take care more of Hurricane Irene's wrath outside in my driveway...

1. I've read that the relay from my 2000 is not compatible with the 1998. Any other way to troubleshoot the relay prior to purchasing another?

In a pinch, IIRC you can pop in your B Version relay just to see if the top STARTS to move. It not "compatible" because the A version relies on the B-Pillar microswitch and the black lever microswitch (on top of the electric motor forward of the third brake light) and an "after-running time" to go through its two cycles and to cut power to the electric motor at just the right time (s).
Electronic troubleshooting is not my forte but you can get some useful information that I posted in the article on Mike Focke's website, with the help of Stefan and Disraeli, IIRC....Look at the last few pages of the part III PDF and you will see the differences, and even the functions and terminals translated from German to English. It makes sense after a while... a long while..

2. Have folks had more issues with the top controller or the top relay? It looks like the controller is big bucks compared to the relay.

What is a "top controller"? Are you referring to the immobiliser under the seat???
3. I remember that the Boxster went through a top upgrade back in 99 and Porsche stopped producing parts for the earlier cars...hopefully I'll be able to avoid having top upgrade the expensive bits.

You can definitely make the A Version work reliably and flawlessly, but it also takes a lot more maintenance and being aware of funny noises, etc.... genrrally being attuned to the top.


4. What is the preferred lubrication for the cables and mechanical bits?

For the cables, use Speedometer cable lube and squirt it in patiently between the inner metal cable and the outer vinyl sheath, then use white lithium grease on the gears that are visible when you take off the little black plastic cover at the point where the cable "enters" the rear of the transmission i.e, at the worm gear....

I am reasonable sure that we'll get it sorted out completely and not spoil the great deal you got!

Regards, Maurice.

Can the convertible top relay out of my 2000 Boxster be used to troubleshoot the top on my 1998? I know they are different part numbers but wasn't sure what the difference is in the two relays.

Oh yeah, the passenger side cable on my 2000 gave up the ghost this weekend. Looks like its broke in the motor end. I got the clam shell and top disconnected and got the top up so no real worries,

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

IIRC, the top motor will energize even with the wrong double relay (depending on where in the open/close cycle the top is at the time that you try it).

I know that it will not work correctly all the way through the cycle, for obvious reasons, as stated in my earlier post, here: In a pinch, IIRC you can pop in your B Version relay just to see if the top STARTS to move. It's not "compatible" because the A version relies on the B-Pillar microswitch and the black lever microswitch (on top of the electric motor forward of the third brake light) and an "after-running time" to go through its two cycles and to cut power to the electric motor at just the right time (s).
Electronic troubleshooting is not my forte but you can get some useful information that I posted in the article on Mike Focke's website, with the help of Stefan and Disraeli, IIRC....Look at the last few pages of the part III PDF and you will see the differences, and even the functions and terminals translated from German to English.
It makes sense after a while... a long while..

Here is the link to that article...go to the very bottom of the page at the link, to the "part III PDF" and take a look at the last two pages...[sites.google.com]

You can also see side by side photos of the A Version and the B Version relay and the layout of the male spades on each of the two double relays....The numbers of the spades sticking out of the relays correspond to specific positions.

Regards, Maurice.

Thank you.
I ordered a the correct relay from Suncoast yesterday for cheaper than I saw it on ebay or from the dismantlers! I may try my 'B' relay tonight.

Also ordered new cables for my 2000 Boxster as the passenger side cable failed this weekend...like I didn't have enough on my plate right now!

No damage on the 2000 and I was able to get the rods disconnected and the top up without any real issue.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

... a good year for the Boxster.
$4,800 is a great price for a car in the condition you describe.
Happy Bpxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

and the image link has to be accessible to all (i.e. not require a login).

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Looks like a well spent $4800! Enjoy.

This is my clay bar as I started on the hood of the car! This bar will be toast by the time I finish with this Boxster

Ive never used clay, mostly a bit nervous about doing damage, but i see how much it removed.

Grant

out and off the surface, where they get embedded into the clay bar, etc... You can actually FEEL and HEAR the little impurities when they are still on the surface as the the clay bar (with a little squirt of the lubrication/spray) is pulled along over the surface you are trying to clay...

Try it, you'll like it.

Regards, Maurice.

I've used Mothers and Megquires and like both for general cleaning. The kit costs just under $20 and basically consists of the bar, detail spray and maybe an add on like a microfiber towel or small bottle of wax. You can buy additional spray detailer as needed. Don't be afraid of the bar! You will not damage your paint in any way and once you use it, you won't believe the difference in the 'feel' of your paint. BTW, it only takes about 45 minutes for me to clay bar the Boxster, so its not a big time commitment.


Here are basic steps I follow:
1. Wash car with dawn dishwashing detergent to strip off old wax.
2. Dry car
3. Spray the detailer on a small section of your car ( say 2ft by 2ft) and then rub the section with clay. No need to rub hard. The clay bar will sound abrasive when you start and then get quieter as you pull the contaminants from the paint. Mist with spray as needed to keep the clay bar from dragging.
4. Wipe area dry with clean microfiber towel and move on to the next area until car is complete.
5. OPTIONAL, Wash/dry car
6. Apply your favorite polish.
7. Apply your favorite wax.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

As far as detergents go, I've found Woolite or generic equivalents better at cutting brake residue from wheels than Dawn, which has the reputation. I assume then, that the wool washes are better at cutting wax, too.

Appreciate the reinforcement.

My car really need some TLC. tracks are not paint-friendly.

Grant

I finally got around to driving the new Boxster this last weekend and registered the car yesterday. After a few runs in the car I suspected that the ignition switch was suspect. On one trip around the 'hood I noticed that the AC and fan were not working although the climate control display and buttons were operational. Next time or two I started the car and the AC was back to normal. Yesterday morning at one point I started the car and the radio was inoperable. Next time I started or two I started it and the radio was back in business. I ordered an ignition switch from the local NAPA and got it in today.

While awaiting the switch, I looked at the top relay situation, which the indy had told me was bad. I found no relay installed. I called the PO and he didn't know what had happened to it and didn't know it was missing. The Indy may have it. I got the relay out of my 2000 Boxster (just to see if I could get any movement) and installed it to see what might work....nothing....no window drop or anything. I ordered the correct relay from Suncoast ~$95+shipping, which showed up tonight as well.

Tonight I installed the ignition switch and after verifying its operation, I wondered if it might be the reason the top quit working on the previous owner. I got the new relay, installed it and....drum roll please...down goes the top!

I plan to try the relay out my 2000 Boxster again just to move the top to determine if my problem was actually just the ignition switch.

I've got a black top and frame assembly on order to do a simple swap. No glass window or anything but appears to be in very nice shape.
Will post pics of the work as I go along.

BTW, the car runs great! Only problem is my 16 year old is driving my 2000S as he sold his Jeep Wednesday....



dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Wow --what a steal of a car; amazing what $4800 and a bit of elbow grease can do to bring a car with a few miles on it back to life.

The absence of that yellowing/cracked window when the "new" top is in place will have you thinking you just got a new Box. It had that effect on me when I replaced my original, slashed plastic windowed top with a new canvas and vinyl window strip down.

Keep up the good work!

Regards, Maurice.

The Gulf Coast is getting a lot of rain from TS Lee so I'm taking the opportunity to work on the car a bit. I started by using a headlight restoration kit and polished the headlights. I'll post the process and results in a separate thread.

I pulled the instrument panel apart to verify a bad light bulb. Of course, I had no spares on hand but I took the opportunity to clean the area out and then put it back together while I wait on my order.

I put the top in service condition to take a look at the engine....very dirty, including the worst looking air filter I've ever seen! How the car ran well is beyond me!


I went ahead and cut out the old back window as it was...well look for yourself! I have a new top on the way.

I pretty much spent the rest of the afternoon cleaning interior cracks and crevasses, door jambs, the inside of the trunks and the underside of the clam shell. I finished the day with a wash job. I plan to start the paint cleaning process today with a cleaner, polish and finishing wax.



dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Hard to imagine a filter looking that bad with all the other work the previous owner had done.
A look inside the TB might in order to go along with the new filter.

The PO had receipts for some things in the last year and a half (brakes, tires, water pump and three oil changes) but that was about it. I've never seen an air filter that dirty in any vehicle! I had to use a screw driver to get out the gunk that was caked in the crevasses and then sprayed it with brake cleaner and blew it dry. It only has to last about a week until my parts come in.

I do plan to do clean out the TB, along with cleaning the MAF. I would have cleaned the MAF yesterday but, for the life of me could not find the security torx bit I needed for the screws. How frustrating.

I placed an order with AutohauzAz last night for new air, cabin and fuel filters, new lifts for the rear trunk, instrument bulbs and spark plugs. I plan to inspect the plug tubes before I decide to order them but I figure that I'll order from Suncoast, along with a couple of liters of gear oil.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Your list of things to do should cover just about everything that needs to be replaced at that mileage.

Regarding the air filter-it almost makes you wonder if the PO or their mechanic didn't know where the air filter element was so it didn't get changed; looks like it's been in there for 10's of thousands of miles.

I'm not familiar with the shop that did the water pump, brakes and a couple of the earlier oil changes as they are across town from me. The shop that performed the last oil change is very reputable and were the ones that told me, prior to me buying the car, that the appeared to be behind on maintenance. They also offered to look it over for me (not a real PPI) prior to purchase at no cost. I guess I just took a chance and bought it anyway.

Since the oil and coolant are up to date, I figure flushing the brake/clutch fluiid and changing the gear oil will complete the fluids.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

I picked up a used top and frame off of a 2001 Boxster from a source in Los Angeles (not a distmantler) and installed it last night on my 98 Box. Removing the top and frame is as easy as everyone has said...even for me! Of course, I it did take me a little longer than the pro's but I really had no problems.

My new top bolted on easily. The two screws on each side were a little tough to get at. The screws lined up just fine but it was a tough getting enough torque on them to tighten them up completely. I connected the two push rods and was ready to call it a night.

Thanks again to Maurice and others who've taken the time to write up such excellent information and instructions.

Then I became an idiot.

I knew I didn't have the 'B-pillar' limit switch connected but decided to make sure the top would move, knowing I didn't want to go too far, but that's exactly what I did. I 'just' wanted to put my top up from the service position. As I sat in the drivers seat admiring my good work I heard the pop of my top transmissions moving past the last tooth. Crap. I spent the rest of last night and most of today beating myself up for being such a goof.

After work this afternoon, I got out to the car and disconnected the two top cables from the motor and connected them one at a time to my drill to see if I could get the worm gear to engage the half moon gear in the transmission. Luckily, both engaged without too much of a fuss and I was able to get the clam shell open enough to know that things were ok. I reconnected the B pillar switch and finished adjusting both transmissions, using the drill on one cable at a time until both sides were balanced. My top works just fine now and the light goes out as it should both in the up and down positions.

During my work, I had the opportunity to inspect my cables and rod ends and lube the mechanical parts with white lithium grease.

After attempting to clean the back window of the top, I am less than pleased with my purchase. There are spots that I cannot identify on the plastic window. I have tried clay, Meguires PlasticX, and even a little "goof off' but am unable to remove the spots. I am currently attempting to contact the seller to resolve the issue, but that will another story.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

picked up a used top and frame off of a 2001 Boxster from a source in Los Angeles (not a distmantler) and installed it last night on my 98 Box. Removing the top and frame is as easy as everyone has said...even for me! Of course, I it did take me a little longer than the pro's but I really had no problems.

My new top bolted on easily. The two screws on each side were a little tough to get at. The screws lined up just fine but it was a tough getting enough torque on them to tighten them up completely. I connected the two push rods and was ready to call it a night.

Thanks again to Maurice and others who've taken the time to write up such excellent information and instructions.

Then I became an idiot.

I knew I didn't have the 'B-pillar' limit switch connected but decided to make sure the top would move, knowing I didn't want to go too far, but that's exactly what I did. I 'just' wanted to put my top up from the service position. As I sat in the drivers seat admiring my good work I heard the pop of my top transmissions moving past the last tooth. Crap. I spent the rest of last night and most of today beating myself up for being such a goof.

After work this afternoon, I got out to the car and disconnected the two top cables from the motor and connected them one at a time to my drill to see if I could get the worm gear to engage the half moon gear in the transmission. Luckily, both engaged without too much of a fuss and I was able to get the clam shell open enough to know that things were ok. I reconnected the B pillar switch and finished adjusting both transmissions, using the drill on one cable at a time until both sides were balanced. My top works just fine now and the light goes out as it should both in the up and down positions.

During my work, I had the opportunity to inspect my cables and rod ends and lube the mechanical parts with white lithium grease.

After attempting to clean the back window of the top, I am less than pleased with my purchase. There are spots that I cannot identify on the plastic window. I have tried clay, Meguires PlasticX, and even a little "goof off' but am unable to remove the spots. I am currently attempting to contact the seller to resolve the issue, but that will another story.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

How much was the used top and frame?

I am still negotiating with the seller due my dissatisfaction with the condition of the rear window so I'd rather not discuss specifics.

The tops and frames I've seen online (with soft window) have ranged from $300 to $800. Mine was around the middle, inculding shipping from LA to Florida.

I figured a new top without a frame was going to run around $300 to $350 and I would be installing (and most likely scrrewing it up). The write ups I've seen online say to figure +/- 12 hours for the install so the premium for a top/frame install was worth it to me.

Installing the top and frame took me about 2 hours, including removing the old top etc. There was nothing hard or tricky, just had a little tight access to a couple of the screws on both sides.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Got some parts in and spent part of the day at the Auto Hobby Shop. I planned to attack the front motor mount, fuel filter, plugs and r/r the gear oil. The only rack available was a drive on so I ditched the gear box oil task as I didn't want to remove the cross braces and plate with the car on the ground.

I did the mount first and found the task to be very easy. The numerous instructions available online are spot on. Things are tight but really the R/R is an easy task, at least on a lift!

Fuel filter was no biggie.

Spark plugs took me a little longer that it did on my other Boxster as the plugs I removed may have been the original from 1998. They were Beru double tip plugs and although old, looked like they could have stayed in service for much longer. Thing is, I could hardly get them out! I cracked the ceramic part on three of the plugs trying to get them out! No issue with installing the Bosch replacements.

I took the opportunity to really clean the inside of my rear wheels while I had them off. If you haven't used 'Magic Erasers" you are missing an incredible cleaning product. Try them on your wheels and you will not be disappointed.

Now back to the mount. What a difference the new mount makes with this car! I had the vibration at 2500 rpm and kind of notchy shifting which is what alerted me to the idea that the mount was toast.
My car had other characteristics that replacing the mount solved including a rough idle and sloppy clutch feel. When I purchased the car, the idle felt rough and I had a tough time starting from a standing start. Given the lack of service history I knew my symptoms could be the result of a few different things. After owning the car for a few weeks, I realized that I did not have rough idle..my tach was rock steady. What I felt was drive line vibration. Now the vibration is gone and the car feels like my 2000s. Shifting improved as expected but the clutch take up is much smoother. I cannot express just how much of a difference replacing the mount has made in the enjoyment of driving the car. Well worth the investment and time if you are on the fence.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Just to wrap up this thread, I sold the 98 Boxster today to a coworker who could not wait for me to finish this project. He saw the car when I first got it and started driving it to work and mentioned he would be interested in the car when I completed my work on the car.

I purchased the car with some recent receipts (see earlier posts) and ended up spending about $1,100 on repairs and maintenance. The lions share ($650) of expenses went toward a used top/frame and top control relay. The rest of my expenses were for plugs, filters and a new front motor mount. I also flushed hydraulics and replaced the ignition switch. I had I've driven the car daily for the last month, including some day trips. The car runs great and feels very nice on the road.

I'm very pleased with how the car came out and I hope it will be enjoyed for some time!

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles