Re: Help with offer

This past week I test drove a Artic Silver 2002 Boxster S at a used car dealership in WMass. It felt zippy, responsive, smooth idol & shits, plus quiet over bumps. The asking price is $11,999 and it has 133642 miles on it. The seller had most, if not all, of the service records which we went over and demonstrated the car appears to have been well cared for. Per Carfax it is a 2 owner car and was in a front end collision when it was about a year old. The seller admitted the car had two strikes against it, the high mileage and all the 17" tires need to be replaced. It comes with a 2nd set of 18" Porsche rims (who's mounted tires also need to be replaced) and a matching hard top which looks really good on this car. The only other major features are the Litronic headlights and aero kit. Based on Kelley BB's definitions the overall condition is close to good but falls into fair on a few items (i.e. tires bad, due for 120K service, see more below).

I had a PPI performed at a local Porsche dealership and they found the compression/leakdown is within tolerance, redline history was stated as "really good", however the RMS shows oil seepage, as well as the right cylinder head. They quoted me $2200 to fix those two issues, $600 for the 120K service (which was not done) & $150 to fix one bent rim. There were a few other minor items but not sure they are worth mentioning, mostly about imperfections that one would expect of a car with this many miles (i.e. pits on windshield, imperfections on paint, wheel scratches, etc). When the seller picked the car up he was provided with a copy of the PPI report.

So what do you all think? According to Carfax the vehicle was offered for sale on 12-12-11. I'm looking for advise of an offer. Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2012 05:21PM by sonicworld. (view changes)

So just show the PPI to the seller and use it to negotiate a better purchase price.
When you get a better price, invest it in retrofitting the IMS bearing, gasket and other.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

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Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Retrofitting the IMS bearing requires a 3rd party part or is this done by PORSCHE? Is the IMS bearing located in the same area as the RMS? If so one could kill 3 birds with one stone as I hear many folks also try to time the clutch replacement along with replacing the RMS.

... you must first remove the transmission, the clutch and the flywheel.
So, when putting it back together, most people opt to put a new clutch.
Some Porsche dealers have been known to retrofit the LNE bearing, but not all, so check.
I would suggest having a shop that has done multiple retrofits, as it can be delicate.
The RMS is just above the IMS bearing and only costs $20, so replace that as well.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I go to www.cars.com and look for Boxsters with 100k+ miles. I see some amazing asking prices but one of the Ss is as low as $9k asking with 135k miles.

So if we say that is an average car, I look at your deal this way. I see the hardtop as worth $1200-1500 and a big plus in your area, the Litronics as adding $3-400. 4 tires and a rim costing $800-$1300 in negative value. Extra wheels needing tires add $400 to the value if straight and a plus in your area for snows if you will drive it all the time (could be more value depending on what condition and model the wheels are - I assumed turbo and maybe not Porsche parts). You already know the maintenance costs you'll pay immediately and that assumes nothing else is found for a while. I assume you have storage space. You don't say what condition the top is in and it may be hard to determine safely depending on the weather.

I can't see paying over $10k for the car.

Thanks for the response.

The 18" turbo look wheels are OEM, not sure about the 17's" (which are being used as the winter set). I looked at the 18's and they appear to be in better shape but as they were not on the car for the inspection I have no way of knowing if any are bent. They took the hard top off during the PPI to inspect the soft top which was found to be in excellent condition including the rear window.

I was thinking around $10K as well but wasn't sure. I really like the car and didn't want to turn the seller off. But on the other hand can walk away if it means overpaying. Should I initially offer him less or just simply state in light of the PPI findings I can't see paying more than $10K?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2012 07:21PM by sonicworld. (view changes)

My success (bought two Boxsters..one at $2k less than asking...one at $4k less) was when I presented multiple comparables in printed form and told the seller frankly how I came up with the offer figure I did. On the car where the PPI was done, the mechanic had gone over the PPI with the owner separately from my review. I'd go on to say that, with me, it was a cash sale today, no warranties or financing and the seller could be done with the deal today. If the seller is truly motivated to sell, as opposed to trying to squeeze the last dollar out of the process, they see an exit strategy that costs them no more time. If they are willing to wait to get their price, then you move on and look for a motivated seller.

This is a lower priced car which (to me) limits the demographics who would be interested in the car. The extra wheels and hardtop imply that someone will need storage and not everyone in the traditional demographic for this priced car has that much storage. (Though I guess they can do what a friend does, he keeps his very limited edition Harley in the dining room. Probably because the garage has the vintage Ferrari he is rebuilding in it along with 3 other cars and bikes.)

Thanks, I like your strategy but I have not been able to find any comparibles that illustrate a lower price for a high mileage Boxster S except for the one you refered to earlier which has a salvage title. And I agree with you that this car does indeed have a limited demographic due to that mileage.

I spoke with the seller today and offered him $10K. He said no thanks, he'll keep it. The best he would offer me is $11K but he keeps one set of the turbo rims (I can pick which ever set I prefer, the 17 or 18 inch). I do want the hard top as it gives the car a unique look and storage is not an issue. He did indicate that the RMS seal had already been replaced per the maintenance records but I explained that it depends when it was done as with this many miles it could need to be replaced again as there were signs of seepage. He stated that since the PPI was done by a new car dealer they are holding this car to new car standards and seepage is normal and does not indicate a problem.

I did not accept his offer but indicated I would do more research and get back to him tomorrow.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 01:06PM by sonicworld. (view changes)

Quote
sonicworld
Thanks, I like your strategy but I have not been able to find any comparibles that illustrate a lower price for a high mileage Boxster S except for the one you refered to earlier which has a salvage title. And I agree with you that this car does indeed have a limited demographic due to that mileage.

I spoke with the seller today and offered him $10K. He said no thanks, he'll keep it. The best he would offer me is $11K but he keeps one set of the turbo rims (I can pick which ever set I prefer, the 17 or 18 inch). I do want the hard top as it gives the car a unique look and storage is not an issue. He did indicate that the RMS seal had already been replaced per the maintenance records but I explained that it depends when it was done as with this many miles it could need to be replaced again as there were signs of seepage. He stated that since the PPI was done by a new car dealer they are holding this car to new car standards and seepage is normal and does not indicate a problem.

I did not accept his offer but indicated I would do more research and get back to him tomorrow.

25K miles and has remained leak free since this is not always the case.

Another leaking RMS is not that much of a biggie -- though it does give you some reason to lower your offer price and of course your highest price.

But the leak may be the IMS end plate and its bolts. When my 02's RMS was replaced the IMS end plate and its 3 bolts were replaced with upgraded end plate (3-ribbed seal vs. the old end plate's single skinny o-ring) and 3 micro-sealed bolts to prevent oil from seeping past the threads and out around the bolt heads.

So, if you do end up with the car and budget for the RMS budget for a new IMS end plate/ and bolts, too.

As for having the LN IMS bearing retro-fitted I can't help you there. You'l have to make up your mind on this. Chances are the seller will argue the original IMS bearing has held up this long and he's not going to want to offer you any break on the price to reflect the considerable cost this retrofit entails.

'course, if you go into that area for the RMS and end plate that's the labor right there.

In your car's case if the head is leaking I'd give the car a miss.

If the camshaft cover or a spark tube is leaking that might be ok. If the leak is clearly identified as being from a spark plug tube or even a camshaft cove, that's ok.

If a head gasket is leaking... I'd walk away from the car.

The driver's side camshaft cover on my 02 is leaking a tiny bit. Last oil/filter service the tech pointed it out to me. We both looked the leak over and honestly it doesn't look that bad. No oil was or since has hit the ground. We confirmed no oil was getting anywhere it shouldn't get or on anything it shouldn't get on so we talked and he agreed to clean the area and this next 5K mile service (due now) we'll take a look at the leak.

Unless the leak has gotten worse I'm going to let it go.

While the compression/leak down test came back ok, I like to actually let the engine run long enough that the DME can flag anything it finds. So I think you ought to visit the car again and be sure you experience the car during a thorough test ride and then experience the car during a test drive. The route should cover 15 miles and allow the seller to demo the car in all reasonable driving situations. After the test ride take the car out as the driver and drive the car over the same route and the same way.

For price all I can suggest is that if the car's in reasonable shape for its age/miles the car's worth somewhere starting at low book (wholesale) on up to as high as someone is willing to pay for the car.

Remember:

Price is not fact only an opinion.

You can always raise your offer.

There is always another car.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Since your are asking for help, here's my .02 worth.

How one defines a 'good deal' is very personal. For some, it is sqteering every last dime your direction without regard for anything else. For otheres, it is the completion of a transaction within a desired time frame, putting more value on schedule than contract price.

I've always tried to adhere to the following. A good deal is one where both parties shake hands and walk away satisfied their individual decisions.

I do not spend much time trying to explain my offer to a seller by outlining all of the items on the car that I may be concerned about. Once I have an idea of what 'things' may cost, and I have decided to submit an offer, I do so knowing that my offer is fair and reasonable. I also let the seller know I am able to complete the transaction that day. I cannot and will not worry about how a seller 'feels' about my offer.

You and the seller are currently $1000 apart. For all of the gnashing of teeth, either hold your ground, letting the seller know that you will continue to search but if he reconsiders your offer, he's welcome to contact you. You could also simply call and offer to split the difference. You may find that you were not $1000 apart after all!

As a seller, I've never been insulted by an offer. The offer either was not real, was not informed or was a reasonable place to start negotiations.

Best of luck and I hope you get your car (which ever one it ends up being!)

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

If he's willing to take $11K, he should be willing to take $10.5K.
That $500 could pay for a new set of tires or the 120K service if you're not handy.Also, Look for an Indy to do that if you can find one.

2002S with over 131 K miles, asking $12K. Look around, I think you'll find the right one at your price.
[boston.craigslist.org]

Thanks for checking. It has the same asking price, I believe Mike was suggesting finding ones with lower asking prices as an arbitration tool.

www.autotrader.com

any distance from your zip code

Porsche

Boxster

2000 to 2003

up to $11k

I find about 5 on the first page that are Ss that fit that description. And not all are salvage.

Now it may be that in your neck of the woods, cars are more expensive. And you may value the hardtop more in your area than it is in others and they are starting to get hard to come by. No longer made and in demand for track use.

It isn't the world's worst thing to pay a bit more for a car that is the right car and on which you have a PPI that tells you what you need done.

My second car I spent about $2200 on within a week of purchase based on the PPI for a major service and a complete brake job and whatever..I don't recall it all. But, maybe as a result, it was dead on reliable for the next 5-6 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 07:11PM by mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC. (view changes)

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I did purchase the car in question and have nothing but good news to report!

While I did not get the car for $10K as some suggested I do feel I got a decent deal. And to think I originally was going to offer the seller full price, your support gave me the courage to obtain the car for much less. While I did review the maintenance records before purchase I was able to go through them more thoroughly and leisurely once the car was purchased. In 2011 the previous owner had replaced the water pump, brakes, the RMS and clutch. Adding up to thousands of dollars. Many of the picky items that surfaced during the PPI turned out to be false alarms (i.e. the emergency brake reportedly did not work, but it checked out fine when I tested it, not to mention the tech who, just today, performed the annual MA safety inspection).





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2012 06:23PM by sonicworld. (view changes)

Sounds like you're happy with the deal.

Now there are just two more things to do.

1. Take some pictures of your car and post them here - to make it official.

2. Most important!!! Take it out for a nice long drive and ENJOY.

Congratulations--have fun with it.

Thanks guys!