Re: Walk, no, run to an independent tech....

Well, we've had a pretty good run. Almost 48k miles of permagrin, plenty of good memories on two continents. Just ordered a new set of snow tires, had a new battery put in, etc. but now I fear our days together are numbered.

The check engine light came on two days ago, steady orange, dealer let me come in today to have that looked at, along with the annual service. Apparently, the CEL was prompted by a stuck vario-cam actuator message. They also noted some leakage around the chain tensioner/cam covers, wonder if the engine timing belt is about to go too. When they pulled the oil filter, it was speckled with lots of little green plastic/rubber bits, "Festo Green" if you know what I mean. They didn't know what the rubber is from, speculate it could be part of the variocam business going wonky. Repair bill estimate at $4200... yeah, I could go independent, etc. but just the parts are $1700.

So, I am a bit depressed, bummed, etc. but then in the scope of things (like Mike Fockes post re: the Marine in Afghanistan) what am I complaining about? It's a car, it's been fun, and it's likely the last Porsche for the time being since I actually need a station wagon to transport the four of us. E-class wagons seem like the only choice for tall folk in the front that still allow rear passengers enough leg room.

Anyhow, has anyone else dealt with a stuck Vario-Cam actuator? What options did you consider? How did your path turn out? This is a 2001 base boxster... whose resale value now is likely well below the cost of the extras inside her (full leathers, etc.) Speaking of which, if I were to trade her in, would it be wiser to sell the hard top and summer or winter tires separately? The summer tires (on the original Turbo-look 18" rims) have maybe 1k of wear.. while the winter rims (16") have worn down tires on them. Decisions...

Call me a skeptic, but absent any drivability problems, I would get a second opinion. Dealers have a way of fabricating issues, especially when business is slow. Go to your local Pep Boys or Autozone and buy a cheap $40 OBDII code reader and read off the code yourself, and post here. You may not need to spend all that money.

Oh, and regarding that oil leak they say you have...don't necessarily believe that either...dealer once told me I had an RMS leak, and it turned out to be a small leak from the oil fill tube instead.

Good advise and observations... an indie analysis will be telling.

Dealers, and others , have made a fortune calling any slight oil leak an RMS failure. Remove them, and abusive drivers, and there still is a problem. Just not one of epic proportions that those who profit from it (and some of those who suffer from something) would have you believe.

My elderly parents took one of their old Benzes to the dealer, and my mom asked if it mattered that she saw surface rust on the cat converters on the car...service advisor told her that it was $4k to order new converters. She called me, and then I called the service advisor to ask him why does my mom need to replace a catalytic converter when they work properly and pass inspection. He then said, "well, she doesn't need to replace them, but she said they were rusty...um...we'll take that off the work order then." You gotta love honest people/dealers like that. NOT!

these cars don't have timing belts. They have chains. And if i'm right the chain guides are not green plastic, they are orange plastic. So my BS alarm is ringing. I don't doubt something is wrong, but this does not sound right.

Now, if variocam stuck the car might run poorly, but variocam does not move the cams into the range of interference. And to the best of my knowledge, none of the mechanism is plastic.



Grant

You need to seriously talk to a couple of quality independents. We recently had a very similar episode where the dealer told the owner around $4-5K to fix the exact same issue on a 2000 base car. When all was said and done, the job was completed for less than $1500, all in (new actuator assembly, actuator chain ramps and an oil change). Sometimes I have no idea where the dealers get off with these quotes…..

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

... get a referral from you local PCA members, etc. You'll be glad you did!

>> wonder if the engine timing belt is about to go too
Ummm... perhaps a quick reading of any decent technical menu will calm your fears (hint: chains, not belts).

... I have made an appointment with Automotive Engineering in Lexington, MA. What I want them to do (and I'll be paying for their time) is to look over the fault codes, the filter, and the engine and then give me a second opinion. If anything else, if I can keep her running for several more months as her replacement is being built, a more nominal investment into her makes sense. Otherwise, I'll have to go the used route, which is not the end of the world either but it's nice to have the time to find the car one really wants...

Still deciding whether it makes sense to keep IE as a summer car (garaged in ME during the winter) or to cut the umbilical cord. She can't depreciate much further and perhaps in Maine she would get the extended drives that seem to be better for the engine than the commuting that I have been doing here... only 4k miles per year...

Quote
jlegelis
... get a referral from you local PCA members, etc. You'll be glad you did!

>> wonder if the engine timing belt is about to go too
Ummm... perhaps a quick reading of any decent technical menu will calm your fears (hint: chains, not belts).

+1; at these prices another opinion from an indy is well worth your time. The best opinion would be from someone well acquainted with the M96 engine.

seal.

Too late for you perhaps but when something is believed to be worth tearing into the oil filter for the oil filter housing's oil should be poured into a clean drain pan for examination. What one is looking for is not only big bits but some metal sheen that can -- if the IMS bearing going bad -- that can be from the balls and bearing races.


However, there are a couple of things that suggest it may not be a going bad IMS bearing. One is you didn't not report any noise from that area. Were the bearing bad enough to have lost its bearing seal material I would think the bearing would be noisy.

Two is the the stuck VarioCam actuator code. A going bad IMS bearing would not normally -- under any reasonable scenario I can think of -- cause a stuck actuator. One possible unreasonable scenario would be if the IMS bearing bits (seal, race, fine metal particles) have found a way into the clean oil pressure side and have fouled oen or both actuators.

Absent any scary noises from the engine IIRC with the engine running at idle the tech can using the Porsche System Tester 2 (PST2) command each actuator to activate then deactivate and from the other readings know if the actuators are really working.

In fact he can read the two camshaft position sensors and from this know if one or both actuators are in the wrong phase: active when it should be inactive or vice versa.

Added: Forgot to mentione one or both camshaft position sensors may be bad too. If a sensor is bad it can signal the actuator is stuck in one position or the other when of course it is not. There are tests to eliminate the camshaft position sensors from the list of suspects.

Sincerely,

MarcW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 05:23PM by MarcW. (view changes)

The seals are black......





“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2010 05:29PM by JFP in PA. (view changes)

seals in the Boxster engines. Maybe it was with one or more cam chain tensioner pistons? I know the guides are black or dark caramel colored composite material.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

with caps consisting of some material with a green with a touch of blue color.

I have no color pics of the various cam chain tensioner pistons/assemblies nor of the VarioCam actuators.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

a camchain tensioner piston assembly. Here's a high res pic that at the left margin shows what I believe to be a camchain tensioner piston assembly and you can see the green colored o-ring.



Sincerely,

MarcW.

...but I hope you already knew that?

The shade of green looks right and if the Variocam system is on the fritz then there might be a strong correlation. Thanks again.

Besides the ones you pointed out, there are also similar seals on the oil cooler and a couple other locations. But, at least in my experience, because of how and where they are located, these rarely come loose and show up in the oil without some major mechanical disaster befalling the engine first; I've never seen them in the oil or pan on an engine still capable of running..................

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

...on my last oil change. Engine still running fine.

The o-rings are usually not the issue; sealants used on some engines (cam covers, etc.) were green in color after prolonged exposure to hot oil; some were an amber/brown. Flakes of these sealants come off the "squeeze out” and end up in the oil. Their presence is both harmless and meaningless. Black bits can be from the IMS, but also the chain tensioner paddle wear pads. The presence of these bits is not overly concerning, unless they are large, flat sections (from the IMS), or are accompanied by oil with an obviously metallic sheen, or you find granular bits that a magnet can pick up; that is trouble.................

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

But he is a professional -- so I will keep my mouth shut.

That siad, I get green bits in my oil filter all the time. FWIW...

The car is at the shop, I left her with the filter there for inspection. I hear more news on Monday.

Assuming the cost is not in the $4k+ range, I will likely continue to enjoy her until the flying carpet arrives, then keep her as a summer car in Maine - mum has a garage - as she can't really depreciate any further (The Kelley value is 13-14k, i.e. less than 1/2 I spent for the options (sigh)). Summer coverage (insurance) should be quite reasonable given the value of the car and so on. Thanks again, everyone, I really appreciated the words of encouragement.

new Cayman S the filter was nasty looking -- I've posted pics of this in the past -- with bits of stuff and the oil was laden with fine metal particles. The 1st oil change done at 750 miles and the 2nd one around 600 miles later (a bit concerned and eager to see what was what). At this 2nd oil change I found no debris/trash/etc in the filter, just the tiniest hint of metal sheen in the oil.

A new engine can shed lots of stuff, dirt, metal swarf, bits of sealant, but at some point this should drop off to near nothing if not nothing. If one is seeing this stuff at every oil change I'm not saying it is a sign of pending doom but it is out of character.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

I checked on my pet program and the variocam actuator part 99660590200 is common to all early boxsters. If so we have two from an early 2.5 . I can get you a price if you wish > I work for a independent Porsche parts supplier here in Canada. I recall a local shop doing an L&N bearing , a clutch and new tensioners slippers on a 3.2 and the bill was less than your quote. One upside to this repair is the motors we have seen that have had the tensioner slippers replaced have seemingly gained some of the zip the car had when new. I also remember having a lap top hooked up in my car checking a problem and I remember the verio cams both advancing around 4500rpm and the amount was 24% (these figures are what I recall from a brief drive a year ago) I may be out on the specs but I do remember watching both operating> . You need a special tool to lock the cams in place while you remove the tensioner. Marc is correct I recall seeing green rubber in the top ends somewhere.

Once again, many thanks to those who replied with their wisdom, I really appreciated the many good suggestions, tips, and the encouragement to go a different route than I originally intended. Irrrational Exuberance is currently in the final stages of getting rebuilt. At the very least, I intend to keep her as a summer car.

In the meantime, several additional issues were addressed... for one, the (plastic?) guides that the timing chains ride in were quite worn and ready to go. Both sets had to be replaced. Besides getting the variocam actuator assembly replaced, I also opted to replace the IMS bearing with the L&N set. The clutch was only 50% worn, so we left that as is. Additionally, some of the components in the front suspension that were worn. Other bits and bobs (brackets for the muffler assembly, etc.) that looked loose, gone, etc. were also replaced. In other words, a much bigger job than 'just' the Vario-Cam actuator but the end cost is not much higher than the original dealer quote for just the VarioCam actuator.

Naturally, Justin also discovered that I had mounted the front tires on the respective wrong sides (hang head in shame). In my defense, I had noticed it too - but only the next day after I had mounted them on the car. Considering that I was about to replace the entire set of tires (Pilot Alpines) I decided to drive to the dealership with reversed front tires anyway. Just another reason not to mount 'directional' tires after dark (I had mounted my wife's car tires first and it was pretty cold).

Anyhow, I will get details on Monday. But I have a feeling I also discovered a new place to get my car worked on. Many thanks to everyone again and Merry Christmas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/25/2010 08:18AM by Constantin. (view changes)