Re: Called the Porsche dealer about this 05 S and...

I'm trying to think rationally about buying what would be my 4th Boxster. Although I briefly owned a 987S I sold it before registering it and only put 3 miles on it (long story) and now want another Boxster. Of course money plays into this so here is the short version. I'm looking for fun factor and bang for the buck. Not looking to break the bank for a new S. So I have found a 2002 S with 36K miles asking $19200 and a 05 S 20K miles for 28K. So my question is can the 987 really be worth $10K more for a fair weather fun car? I'll look to drive it daily in nice weather and will have the top down as much as possible. Both cars have heated seats so I am willing to put the top down on sub par days. I'm OK with the plastic window because the top will be down. Both cars have non upgraded IMS issues to worry about. Any thoughts? Lastly, I do not think the 02 S is worth $19K whereas the $28K for the 05 S seems like a decent price.

Thanks!!

When I read the last sentence in your post, it looks like you've already answered your own question. If both cars look as if they're in about the same shape and a PPI checks both of them to be in good shape, I would probably come to the same conclusion that you did.

All things being equal, I would go for the newest car that you can afford. As far as styling - interior and exterior look, it's personal choice.

Good luck with your purchase. I'll be looking for pictures of your new ride.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

…i'd probably go for the 986 and try to get the price a bit lower.
my reasoning being that if you're going to only use it in fair weather, it's really just for pleasure and i think you'll get pretty much the same pleasure out of either of these two. there's no arguing that the newer car is better but how much better? what can you do with the &10k that you save?

--
MY 2000 S, Ocean Blue, Metropol Blue, Savanah Beige.
Bought June 2000 - Sold May 2010

Both cars' performance >> exceeds any of our abilities to drive them on the street. Both are a world of fun. Both can break.

One's vastly cheaper.

Caveat: i always go for the car i think has been treated and maintained better. 10k difference in miles is noise. 5 years marginal abuse is huge.

Grant

1st, From SeaNile's own post, he already preferes the 05 (read his last sentence), so he'd probably keep kicking himself later.

2nd. Since he wants to drive it topless even in cool weather with the heated seats, the glass rear window won't need "chopping" and also, there wouldn't be the worry about the rear window cracking or stitching coming loose. (I enjoy driving mine topless in cool weather, down to the freezing mark, too.)

3rd Everyone mentions $10K price difference. My math says there's only $8,800 difference and you never know how much closer you can get with a bit of bargaining.

4th The 05 is 16K miles further away from the first major service.

5th Hard to say what the conditions of the tires is between the two. This could also be part of the cost factor

Tha's my reasoning, as long as the cars are pretty equal in how they've been cared for and maintained. I'd want a PPI done before making a final decision.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2010 08:56AM by Guenter in Ontario. (view changes)

.. that pre-03 the windows were plastic.

the "like" part tends, on cars fundamentally so similar, and IMO, to disappear when they are not being directly compared.
Yea, the 987 is nicer in many ways when you go back and forth. But i never notice long term. Permagriin from the essential goodness washes out all the noise.

grant

I traded my 2002S this time last year (actually Nov. 2009) and Kelly Blue Book was lower than $20K even for sale, not trade value. Plus, going into winter, you can do much better. Even if it has a boat load of options, those don't really come into factor in resale. I'd check kbb.com to see what they think a 2002 S is worth. I'd say probably in the $16K range.

... $19K for an 02S seems quite high.
You can do much better in South Florida.
Probably $2,500 to $3,000 less.
I've been doing a ton of PPIs this month.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Philadelphia suburbs. The 02 S is local whereas the 05 S in in KY.

First, I will reiterate what everyone else on the Board has said - $19K for an '02 S is high. There is a 2000 with 46K miles for sale on this Board right now with the owner asking $16,000. So you can probably get the 986 S that you want for $15 - $17K. That being said, $28K for a 987 S is actually a pretty decent price. I would put in the following calculus:

1) Performance - in terms of power, acceleration, handling, the 987S is an all-around better car than the 986 (and before people get offended, I drive a 986 and have driven both at the limit - the 987 is just newer and more updated)

2) What you use the car for - However, even though the 987 is a better performer, for street driving it makes no difference. If you are going to take the car to the track and drive it at 8/10ths, then the extra power and handling of the 987 is worth it, but on the street I run away from 987s in my 2.5L 986 all the time, so unless you are going to the track the extra performance won't really matter

3) Styling - this is a matter of personal preference. I prefer the 986 styling because it is more spartan and looks like a 1950s Sporstcar. The 987 has been updated and looks much more modern - I think the front end looks a lot like the Ferrari F430 - and is a very beautiful car as well, but is too "large" for my preferences. Totally a matter of personal preference.

4) Mileage - given my reading of various IMS posts (and bear in mind, IMS failures are much rarer than reading board posts would lead you to believe - probably below 1%) the common factor seems to be that they are older, lower mileage cars that are out of warranty. Don't buy a car that has been abused, but make sure it has been used enough for any warranty issues to pop up in the warranty period.

5) Depreciation - If you look at P-Cars, they don't depreciate to $0 like normal cars. Each car seems to hit a depreciation "base" and it doesn't go below that. For example, a clean NA 944 from the 80s will still sell for $4 - $7K, while a clean 944 Turbo will sell for $9 - $12K. I think the base 986s seem to be settling in the $8 - $10K range for a clean car, and the 986 S will probably settle in the $13 - $15K range. The 987 S, once it is older will probably settle in a little higher than that (maybe $14 - $17K) since it is widely considered to be a better car. So, assuming you don't put a ridiculous amount of miles on a 986 S or abuse the car, if you get it for around $16K, you can probably sell it in three years for only $2 - 3K less than you paid for it. I suspect the depreciation on the 987 will be higher over the next 2-3 years as more used ones come on the market and the car gets older. If you factor this in, the effective price differential between the cars is at least $15K, probably more.

So, I guess I would
1) Styling - do you have a preference?
2) How important are the limits of performance and handling to you?
3) I think the 987 is widely held to be a better car than the 986 (not trolling here, just sharing conventional wisdom) but is the difference worth $15K to you?

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2010 09:22AM by Red_Lightnin!. (view changes)

I have no problem admitting that I drive like an old man. Everyone makes fun of me, my son, wife, friends, etc., so I will not be exploring the limits of either of the cars. I'm just looking for fun, top down reliable car. The 02 S for 16-17 seems fair and a relatively easy purchase. The 05 S for $28K or so makes me think more about resale, the initial outlay of money and the fact that the new Boxster style will be out soon. If money wasn't an object I would obviously like the newer 987 car with the larger engine, more modern interior, etc. My only concern, if it can be called one, is will I regret not getting a 987?? What is the worst thing that can happen....buy the 986 and then get a 987 in a year or so. I can live with that. I think, pretty sure I can....

I think that's right, Sean. If you get a 986 S for a good price ($15 - 16K) you can probably sell it in a year for $14-$15K and go buy a 987 if you decide you really want it, and the depreciation rate on the 987 is much higher now than on the 986, so the reduction in 987 price will probably be more than the depreciation on the 986.

You should look at the one for sale on this Board in Annapolis. Full Disclosure - I don't know the seller or the car, so you should have it checked out - but it looks like a nice car.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

the reviews of the '05 987 when it came out and figure if all those improvements were enough to justify my buying the more expensive car. Once I'd settled that in my mind, I'd try not to focus on one car (unless it is just the perfect location/color/option/condition) and look at several examples if they are available where you live. I think there is some wiggle room in both those prices. They match asking prices but few cars sell at asking these days, especially in the winter months.

I drive a 986..have for 5+ years. I've driven a 987 only for test drives, not lived with one. My impressions: the 987 was roomier, more comfortable, safer (roll bar relationship to headrest), had modern switch gear, superior instrument display visibility, superior digital speedometer visibility/placement. My big negative, the lack of a spare tire. The 987 was clearly superior to me, but not enough different for me to buy one.

I've often said I can get enough fun for a lesser price by buying at the price points I do (my 2 Boxsters each had me as the 3rd owner).

Here are the differences/improvements for the '05 models I recorded from articles at the time of the reviews.

2005 Base (almost totally new model)

2.7Litre 240 HP

5 speed manual transmission, Tiptronic optional

Variable ratio power steering

Stiffer chassis, wider wheel alignment

Bigger brakes

Head airbags

PSM standard

17” wheels standard (18”, 19” optional)

Improved headlights

More cockpit room

Better positioned roll bars



2005 S model

3.2Litre 280 HP

New 6 speed manual transmission, Tiptronic 5 speed optional

Bigger brakes even than prior S models (Ceramic brakes CBBS option)

PSM Standard (PASM active suspension optional)

18” wheels standard, 19” optional

Sports chrono package option

ferrari profit money you said ya got

LOL. Not looking to spend that much on a car this time. I did make out quite well on the 360 but not interested in tying up that much $$$ in a car again. I am all over the place on this purchase....thinking of an 07 350Z Roadster (no one likes that choice), 350SLK, 986 or 987 S. If the weather cooperates I will go and check out the 02 S either today, Sat or Monday.

It has the worst of all possible worlds. No road feel, soft handling, can't get a manual tranny. And I don't know if you have sat in one, but the interior is very cramped - makes a Boxster interior feel like a Cadillac.

I think M-B makes great touring sedans, and for regular driving and comfort, they are hard to beat. But IMHO they haven't made a decent sportscar since 1955.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

Despite all the quantitive analysis, go with what moves you. You will have the car for a long period of time, and the 986's already look a little "dated" when compared to newer cars (my impression, the 986 is more curvy, less angular than the 987, looks like an early 00 car). In 5 years, that will be even more of an issue for you. I personally like the 986, and drove a few prior to buying my 05 987. However, in the end, I went with the more current look, and very glad I did.

I think the 987 is a beautiful car, but that the 986 is the more timeless design. I think that the very simplistic, fluid styling and almost total lack of styling gimmicks makes it a beautiful timeless design, just like the E-type, an Austin-Healey 3000, or an Alfa Romeo Spyder. I agree that the 987 is much more current, but I think it has a lot more trim and styling gimmicks (like the two-tone louvers on the side vents, the LED strip marker lamps, the bigger bumpers) and I actually think in 20 years the 987 will look more "dated" than the 986. But will have to agree to disagree and to discuss over a beer in 2030.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

I agree with you on the side vents looking a little out of place on the 987's. I called Eric at Bumper Plugs and replaced mine with body color (black) Cayman vents. They blend in much better.

I don't like the interior on the 987. Looks like and Audi to me. The 987 is to fat looking and has those awful gashes on the side. The 2002's have the look of the original boxster prototype. 2003 on 986's have that fish mouth look to the front end. The 02S should be plenty of car. I have seen them at a lower price than this on.

and it's been a great car. Now 40,000 miles without any major issues. Am having the IMS upgraded next month, the AOS replaced as a precaution, and the clutch inspected since the transmission will be out anyway. Both of your considered cars are probably worth having......if it were my decision, I'd go with the '02 and do some preventative maintenance just for the peace of mind.

03 S, 38K miles asking 21,900. Two owner, well documented history, previous Pcar owner and looking for get a 911. Blk/blk with the usual options.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

At the right price, I'd take the an 02 S because it has a spare and IT DOES NOT have the variable ratio steering. The single thing I didn't like day one on my 06 Club Coupe and still don't, is the variable ratio steering. The net effect is, older cars without it turn with less total steering input and have better feel.

I also like the 02 styling which was the last year for what is essentially the original boxster styling.

$19,200 is too rich for an O2, however.

Current Porsche: PCA Club Coupe 2 of 50

Past: 02 986 S

01 996 Turbo

00 Millenium Coupe

99 996 C2

99 Boxster

Agreed; our old '99' boxster had a steering feel that was so well connected it was unreal.
Our '06' is a great car--many improvements--but steering does feel a bit less connected.

Caution on the maintenance required to keep the black looking good. When it does, great.

I'd prefer '03 over '02 just for styling and usability touches. But that is a personal choice..


02-03 differences

2003 Base (Significant refresh)

2.7Litre engine 228 HP

5 speed manual transmission, Tiptronic 5 speed optional

Lockable glove box.

Improved cup holders.

Bose digital audio system option.

Base model gets same suspension as 2002 S model.

Glass rear window (heated) standard.

Grey/White turn signals replace the prior years yellow/orange ones.

Larger air intakes.

Side air intakes body colored.

Altered rear air spoiler.

Different front and rear bumpers.

Redesigned and lighter wheels.

Tweaked exhaust

Center vents smaller

CDR-23 uses MOST audio bus

Standard in-dash CD player

Optional PCM II using MOST

Switches horizontal

Revised console (between seats)



2003 S model

3.2Litre engine 258 HP

6 speed manual transmission, Tiptronic 5 speed optional

new anti-roll bars.

They say a good 2003 Boxster S should be worth $18300 on the low side and $24500 on the high side.

The 03 S at $21900 isn't terrible but I don't get the feeling the owner will come down much. Might go and look at the 02 S tomorrow and if not Monday for sure. As much as I agree with the 05 being an improved car, I think $17,500-18K is a decent deal for a fun car whereas $28K for the 05 is just a bit too much for me at this point.

For your info the price mentioned in the November Excellence for a 2005 Boxster S was 21,100 low and 28,300 high. Good luck in your search.

Norm

An 05 S for $21K or so would be a great deal. Least expensive one, which is not always the best, with under 50K miles is advertised for $26750. Prices seem to me all over the place, the asking prices that is. Wonder what they are really selling for. Here is my quick rundown and associated prices from the sellers: 05 S 20K miles,...$33500, 05 S 20K miles....$27500, 04 S 25K miles...$27K, 03 S 38K miles..$20,500,...recently advertised 06 S 47K miles, $26750....02 S 35K miles asking $19200.

I'll go and look at the 02 S on Monday as it has the options I want. Seems that we all agree the prices are hi for all the cars yet the sellers are not coming down much. I think the 02 S should be in the upper 16's to low 17's (depending on tires, etc) yet at 19200 I have a feeling they won't come down $2K.

Looked at the 02 S today, it was freezing outside and the car had a nice layer of salt on it so I did not get a chance to really check it out. I did notice the exhaust did not look like the stock one. Here is a link to the ad showing the rear and exhaust.

[www.cars.com]

But unless that car has $5-6K of cash in the boot, it is way over priced....................

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

I am thinking it is worth in the $15K range. Doubt they will let it go for 15K but I could quickly see there are a few small scratches that may help in getting the price down. Last service was the 30K service back in 07.

But a car that has not been serviced in nearly 4 years is a giant red caution flag. In that amount of time, the brake fluid alone should have been changed twice, much less the oil and filters……………..

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2010 05:55PM by JFP in PA. (view changes)

Keep looking! 1) Car is overpriced, 2) Four years without maintenance is trouble -to JFP's point, the brake fluid alone should have been changed. The tires could have dry rot, and who knows what could be wrong with it. Further, I believe very firmly that these are cars that were made to be DRIVEN - and when they are not stuff starts to go wrong with them.

There are a LOT of 986 S cars out there - you should take your time and find the right car at the right price, with a realistic and motivated seller who understands that the value of a car is not what you think it is but what someone is willing to pay for it.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

Out of curiosity I called the dealer to see what kind of history they have on the car. They are at $18,000 for the car but as of now can't provide any history other than what I found out by calling Porsche. Best line of the night from the salaesman "with a car like this you have to believe the owner took very good care of the car and had all the work done". Yea, well if that is the case prove it to me! They went through the CarFax line by line telling me about the registeration but not a thing on service, etc.

and pay as much money for the car as possible.

Tell him you'll believe the car was well-taken care of if the dealer will over a 2 year, 24K mile bumper to bumper (patterned after the 'new' CPO) warranty. IOWs, when the dealer believes it...

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Somehow the following dealer statement doesn't give me much peace of mind:

"At Porter Chevrolet we have nothing to hide, no number games to play, only a professional sales team striving to exceed your automotive expectations while providing a pleasant and hassle-free experience."

Saying it doesn't make it so. In fact, the opposite is more likely.

Bill

Dealer with the 02 S called me today and let me know that they have made contact with the previous owner who will be dropping off all of the service records soon. Once the dealer gets the records, whatever records there may be, they will call me and I can get a look at things. Of course the salesman has to get his dig in "good thing we reached out to the owner for the records because we now have several interested parties in the car and they also asked for the records." Personally, I don't care if it's just me or 100 other people checking out the car. That makes no difference and will not influence my decision. Sometimes they just say the dumbest things.....

Quote
SeaNile
Dealer with the 02 S called me today and let me know that they have made contact with the previous owner who will be dropping off all of the service records soon. Once the dealer gets the records, whatever records there may be, they will call me and I can get a look at things. Of course the salesman has to get his dig in "good thing we reached out to the owner for the records because we now have several interested parties in the car and they also asked for the records." Personally, I don't care if it's just me or 100 other people checking out the car. That makes no difference and will not influence my decision. Sometimes they just say the dumbest things.....

Just don't let liking it cause you to skimp on due diligence or turn a blind eye to something that should have you walk away. First and foremost remember there is always another car.

Unless I catch the dealer in some outright lie or just feel I don't want to do business with the dealer -- 'bad vibrations' (rare but it has happened) -- if I have pin-pointed what I believe to be a good car as long as I can find -- and I do try -- no reason to reject the car my goal is to get the car, not to improve the dealer's customer service relationship.

Getting the right car for you at the right price for you, that should be your goal. Although to say it again as long as you feel comfortable with the process. Shopping for and buying a new or used Porsche should be a fun experience. Intense and with a few lows and highs with the ultimate high (and to some extent the ultimate low) culminating with buying the car. Sure, the high is buying the car you've found to be the right car for you. But the low is letdown knowning there'll be no more shopping, thinking about which Porsche examples you want or don't want, weighing all the options, choices, etc.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

There are a few things I do like about the car. Ideally an 03 with glass window would be nice but so would a low mile 05 S 987 but I don't think that is happening. Here is what I like so far....color combo. Every previous Boxster of mine has been blk/blk so I do like the blk.tan combo. I think 36K miles is about right too, we will see about the records and what they show. The other interesting thing about this car in the price. As much as we have discussed the car being over priced, if you search for an 02 with under 40K miles they are all $19K and up, goto a nice 03 and they are low 20's and the 04's are mid 20's. So if this 02 has good records and can be bought for low 18's it really might be an OK deal. Only immediate issue is the usual IMS thing.

Switching gears here for a second. As the family was sitting around having dinner tonight the subject of a 3rd car came up. The usual cars were mentioned, the Audi TT, Boxster, SLK, etc and most everyone agreed (without my mentioning the car at all) that the best bang for the buck, most reliable car out there that would give the best reliability is the 350Z convertible. I had to laugh because I have been considering a 350Z convert. As much as I love the Boxster S, for under 20K I am looking an an 02 Boxster S and for the same money could probably get at least an 06 and maybe even an 07 350Z roadster loaded with 6sp. Maybe I should go and at least test drive a Z??

Merry Christmas!!

next car is before you make up your mind not after.

I've never driven a 350Z 370Z, never even been in one. While I don't dislike the car it really does nothing for me and I don't follow the car to really stay up on it in case I want to buy one.

However, I have read a few reviews and long term test reports. The car comes in for high praise in some areas. IIRC one complaint was the exhaust noise. While initially quite exhilarating after living with it a while the long term tester got tired of it, especially on longer trips.

But test drive one and give it a longish drive too to make sure you like the car.

Oh, Merry Christmas right back at you! And a Happy New Year!

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Drove about 40 minutes to a dealer that had an 06 350Z convert with 6sp on the lot. I got there, pulled up to it, walked around and just couldn't bring myself to get in the car. Maybe it was the color, or not the best example of the car but I did not like this particular car. To be fair, I do like the Boxster cars better, but am trying to be practical as i need a dependable fair weather DD. My other 2 Boxsters were awesome, no issues at all but now I loose sleep over the IMS thing. So all things being equal it would probably be an 01/02 maybe 03 S or an 07 350z with warranty and under 20K miles. I keep going back to the phrase "bang for the buck" and what can I buy, use for 2+ years and not really have to worry about the car (IMS, RMS, etc). Practicality and reliability goes to the 350Z but I am not sure I like it. In fact, other than my brother the other people involved in the discussion (wife, 6yr old son, neighbors, etc) can't stop laughing when I mention the Z, they think it is for teenagers, is "ricey" and I should have zits in order to drive the car. Too funny but I understand the stereotype of the Z.

who bought the Z and then rather quickly transitioned to a Mustang to chime in. Maybe he can give you his opinion.

If you are wanting practicality and 2 year residual value, I'm not sure a Boxster is what I'd pick. I did use is as a dd but with a backup for several years successfully and it was more fun than a Dodge Grand Caravan (effectively the previous car I was driving...don't ask).

How to you value the feeling of enjoyment versus the residual value of a Civic?

"SUBSTITUT", iirc.

Never heard from Dennis as to why he got rid of it and got a Mustang in its place, although he had no more IMS worries.

Regards, Maurice.

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

It'll be a fair weather DD and probably get about 6-12K miles per year. I've got a back up car (Ford Explorer) but hope to only use it when it rains or I need to carry lots of things for my job. I don't want to use my back up car when it's June, 75 and sunny and my fun car is in the shop. I do think it is fair to say, most Boxster owners do not have issues. it's just us on these forums who are more educated about these cars than the general public. After all, I put about 80K miles on two Boxsters and had no issues other than replacing an alternator.

...I thought my ears were ringing. The 350Z was an enjoyable car and had no issues, but the Bullitt has been on my mind since it's inception and actually since the first '01 were produced. When a particular '08 Bullitt crossed my path for the 3rd time I knew it might be fate.

I'm enjoying it and will drive it to Palm Desert CA this winter, two weeks from now in fact.

[home.comcast.net]

I completely agree!

It all depends on the price. At a low enough price, the reward may outweigh the risk. Maybe appropriate only to those who don't mind risk...can afford it financially and emotionally. And I say that not to put others down but to say that you should understand that different people are in different situations and there isn't a one size fits all.

Dealers seldom have service records of any work done outside the dealership network. Trade in a car, leave the records in the glove compartment and the dealer's car-prep folks will throw them away as part of the clean-up for resale process. Lots of paper could be misinterpreted as lots of trouble as opposed to meticulous service.

Maybe ask the dealer to put you in touch with the prior owner and ask him/her what the service history is. I've done it like that before.

I just have a feeling no service records will be found, which i am OK with if the price is right. The issue becomes the $18,000 which they say is their bottom line price. I might be OK with 18K if the car is perfect with a detailed history. $18K for a gamble of a 2002 car with no records is insane to me.

I'm in wintery Philadelphia and am in no rush as the car wouldn't really be driven till the harsh winter weather passes. Sure I would like a nice example of a 986 S for mid teens but maybe waiting this out and shopping around will discover other options. The 05 987 S with 20K miles, one owner with records for $28,450 seems reasonable but I'm not ready to pull the trigger on that car yet. Although it will probably be gone when I am ready to buy I can only hope the new year and a few more months will have the prices come down even more. Sure the weather will be nicer but the cars will be a year older, etc.

John

Compare to this price [philadelphia.craigslist.org] the '02's pricing may sound reasonable to him.

But show him this ad [raleigh.craigslist.org] ($15k asking for an S). Say that is what you have to judge against. When I bought my first, I had 5 low ball priced printouts of ads I took to convince the seller that my -$3k offer was good. It worked.

I was surprised as big an area as Philly didn't have many more private sale Boxsters on Craigslist..only 2.

Good luck.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

Quote
SeaNile
I just have a feeling no service records will be found, which i am OK with if the price is right. The issue becomes the $18,000 which they say is their bottom line price. I might be OK with 18K if the car is perfect with a detailed history. $18K for a gamble of a 2002 car with no records is insane to me.

I'm in wintery Philadelphia and am in no rush as the car wouldn't really be driven till the harsh winter weather passes. Sure I would like a nice example of a 986 S for mid teens but maybe waiting this out and shopping around will discover other options. The 05 987 S with 20K miles, one owner with records for $28,450 seems reasonable but I'm not ready to pull the trigger on that car yet. Although it will probably be gone when I am ready to buy I can only hope the new year and a few more months will have the prices come down even more. Sure the weather will be nicer but the cars will be a year older, etc.

John

As for servicing... Call PCNA customer service and with the VIN customer service can tell you to which dealer the car originally sold.

You can call this dealer's service department with the VIN and the service department may be able/willing to tell you want services the car at the dealer.

If there are other dealers in the area you call them too and see what you can learn about the car's service, at least after it was first sold.

Get a CarFax report and see if you can learn where the car spent some of the intervening years. Call Porsche dealers in those areas and see what you can learn about the car's servicing.

I always advise someone doing this to avoid asking anything about the owners of the car due to the dealer -- some anyhow (depends I guess on the state and privacy laws) -- wanting to avoid privacy issues.

Also, I avoid asking whoever I speak with putting anything in writing or faxing me copies of any work or service records. Again privacy issues and I don't want to lose out on valuable info about the car because the dealer's rep clams up. There is time cost to this and well at the dealer's end. I just want the info and am prepared to jot down what I'm told over the phone.

Some have experienced just the opposite above, in that the dealer divulges quite a bit of info and can even mail or fax service record info.

Even if you learn every detail of the car's early history this doesn't eliminate the fact the car's had lousy service in the last 4 years. That is after a while after so many years and miles later, what servicing a car had early on counts for less than what servicing the car has had recently and of course as best you can judge what the car's condition is.

Is this lousy service of the last 4 years a worry? Some. At least you need to adjust the price (your offer) on what it will cost you to bring the car's servicing up to snuff. Get quotes from a local Porsche dealer and use those numbers, even if you can do or even all the work yourself.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I called the Porsche dealer who has serviced the car, last service was at 30K miles but did not specifically say it received the 30K service. Only mention of being brought in to check CV boot in 07. No other detailed service is mentioned.

The private party 02/03S cars are actually more expensive than what the dealers are asking. The two cars I am talking about have a very detailed service history with the owner having the records. The 02 S with 41K miles is $20,500 and the 03 S is $21,900.

Maybe I just hold off a few months, get a 987 CPO S and spend a bit more. I think an 02/03 S for 16500-17000 is a decent deal but if more than that I feel more comfortable spending 30K for a 987 CPO.

Quote
SeaNile
I called the Porsche dealer who has serviced the car, last service was at 30K miles but did not specifically say it received the 30K service. Only mention of being brought in to check CV boot in 07. No other detailed service is mentioned.

The private party 02/03S cars are actually more expensive than what the dealers are asking. The two cars I am talking about have a very detailed service history with the owner having the records. The 02 S with 41K miles is $20,500 and the 03 S is $21,900.

Maybe I just hold off a few months, get a 987 CPO S and spend a bit more. I think an 02/03 S for 16500-17000 is a decent deal but if more than that I feel more comfortable spending 30K for a 987 CPO.

any servicing.

The owner brought the car in for a specific problem and that's that. And that ain't good, in my book. I mean it is nice to know the owner was concerned about the CV boots enough to have these checked out by the dealer but with no other signs of any servicing... And I can assume (correctly I hope) that if the owner was capable of doing his own servicing he was certainly capable of inspecting the car's CV boots. I do every time I'm under my cars during an oil change. I am not prepared to replace them myself -- I'll leave that for the dealer's service department -- but I can look them over well enough to know they need replacing.

The cars with the better service history -- all other things being equal -- I think are better cars, assuming as best you can tell their condition is good. A car can receive good servicing and still be a poor car to own.

I'm not current on Boxster market prices, but remember as I mentioned I believe already price is not fact only an opinion. The seller is certainy entitled to his opinion. But so are you. The car's actual value is probably somewhere between the seller's price and what you think the car's worth (to state the obvious). But my point is that don't let the asking price scare you away. Arm yourself with good market valuation info and find lots of cars that fall into the model years you are considering and use this and whatever else you can to justify offering a lower amount for the car.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

because I was listening to a financial analysis of CarMax's quarterly results the other day. The average spread between cost and selling price was $2,100.

I have this notion I could beat that easy if I was patient and it would almost buy an IMS.

If you want the most "bang for the buck" I suggest an 01 - 03 BASE 986. I read some bigshot at PCA (North America President?) drives a base 03 986 because he didn't think there was much difference with the S.

I'm stuck on getting an S. I had a base once and all I could think about is my next one being an S. I'll say it once again, I drive slowly and do not push the car yet the S is for me. I'm still searching ebay/car.com/autotrader/porsche sites for cars. Nothing new in the past few weeks really.

You don't drive fast and you still want the S. Hmmm... You could still buy a base and purchase the "S" sticker for $10 and stick it on your trunk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2010 12:35AM by boxsterd. (view changes)

[orlando.craigslist.org] is another well priced example. For the difference you could stop by Cleveland GA on the way back and get your IMSR done.

I've been searching craigslist as well. As much as I think the dealer asking $18750 for the 02 S with 35K miles is a bit high, according to the online cars it is actually reasonably priced. I do think we need to be fair in comparing cars. For me, there is a huge difference between years, especially between a 00/01/02 and especially 03 with glass window. Sure there are lower priced cars out there but they are usually 1-2 years older with significantly more miles on them.

As much as well all agree an 02 S with under 45K miles should be $16000 or so, they certainly are not advertised for so and the sellers are not coming down. A few examples, the one I looked at..02 S 35K miles for $18750, 02 S 41K miles for $20,000 and an 03 S 0K miles $21,900. I think they are all slightly overpriced but they are not coming down on their asking price. Makes the 05 S with 19K miles for $28,400 seem reasonable.

The Boxster S cars for $17000 and under tend to be 2000 or 2001 cars with 60K miles or so.

I'll grant you the '03-04 has advantages. But when you are talking price, you have to use the "it doesn't matter" to me tactic and show em what you claim to consider comparables. If it works and they adjust their thinking because of the competition, you win. Doesn't, you go on to the next car. And it won't if they have an inflated notion of what their car is worth...some people are like that. Doesn't mean their car is actually better, just their psychological type.

Took me weeks to negotiate my second Boxster purchase, 15 minutes the first. In the end, I had a number and was prepared to walk away..and did. You gotta ignore the cost to get to that other state and bring the car back, the convenience of the one in front of you, the model year differences, etc. It has to all be about the money...unless your heart says it isn't.

Good luck.

PS...don't ignore Craigslist though I'm shocked at how few Boxsters are advertised now in your area. Not a single 987! Even comparably small Raleigh has many more. I use [www.rideslist.com] to get a quick scan. It isn't real time but it enables you to pick a brand and city and even model and get a quick peek. Maybe after Xmas people will list their cars again.

Even expanding the search a bit using www.cars.com advanced search within 100 miles of Philly I find few private sellers though there is a $23.5 2004 in NY that looks nice...CPO claimed...car buff claimed.

Received a call from the dealer with the 02 S this am, the good news is they now have the complete service records of the car and it seems to be very well cared for. I still need to actually see the records and go over them,.. Now the bad news....while clearing out the lot the snowplow hit the car and the hood is pretty banged up. Sounds like the truck backed up and hit the car with the salt spreader hanging off the back of the truck. And here I thought I was about to get a break with a well cared for 986. Wonder who will do the repair, will the paint match, will this show up on CarFax and ultimately will this affect the sale price and then the resale price as well??

negligible if any impact on resale (but you should use as negotiating tool ) as earlier Boxster #s are sadly already very low... Dealer will fix or have their preferred body shop fix and there shouldn't be any paint match issues if they do it right. I'd say there's a 99.999999999% chance it'll never show up on CarFax - most stuff (aside from title xfers) does not. Incidentally, if/when something does show on a CarFax, you should run like he!! from said car as it had to be really REALLY bad for the CarFax to catch wind...

Good luck

as super buys - especially for daily drivers - since plenty of great cars are out there for ~ $16k

Stopped at two book stores today and they only had the Dec issue of Excellence mag. The marketplace section was on the 928.

John

Quote
SeaNile
Received a call from the dealer with the 02 S this am, the good news is they now have the complete service records of the car and it seems to be very well cared for. I still need to actually see the records and go over them,.. Now the bad news....while clearing out the lot the snowplow hit the car and the hood is pretty banged up. Sounds like the truck backed up and hit the car with the salt spreader hanging off the back of the truck. And here I thought I was about to get a break with a well cared for 986. Wonder who will do the repair, will the paint match, will this show up on CarFax and ultimately will this affect the sale price and then the resale price as well??

The dealer might be tempted to skimp to avoid eating into its profits.

Here in CA if a car repaired the body shop has to provide a lifetime warranty on its work for as long as you own the car.

I do not know where you are but even in CA, any body/paint warranty on that car might vanish the moment the dealer hands you the keys. Then you are reliant upon the dealer standing behind the body shop it chose for the work to make things right. And I can tell you chances are you'll have to take the car back at least once to have a bit of paint dullness (the paint shrinks as it dries and the area turns dull) removed. Or you can have to take the car back more if based upon your inspection or that of another body shop owner (see below) poor body or paint work found that has to be corrected.

Repairs might or might now show up on CARFAX. But if you buy the car you know about the repairs and should disclose them when (if) you sell the car.

If you think you still want the car get *before* and after pics, as many as you can take. You want to show the extent of the damage, that the damage was only superficial so when (if) you go to sell the car you have pics to back up your claim the car suffered only minor damage and there's no justification for having to discount the car due to any paint/body work or repair.

Of course if you want the car it needs to be on the condition that the car passes a very thorough inspection of the body/paint work. Another body shop owner, one who has no business ties to either the Porsche dealer and the body shop doing the work should be used for this inspection. Be sure now that you are aware that many owners of Porsche dealers also own other car dealerships (for instance I know of one Porsche dealership owner that owns 5 other car dealerships) so you want to be sure this 2nd body shop you choose isn't one that is used by one of the other dealerships under the Porsche owner's dealership family.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Good idea on asking for pictures of the damage.

I will buy the new issue of Excellence as soon as it comes out.

I am concerned about the dealership and how much money they want to invest in the car for the repair. They are asking $18700 for the car and I am sure to fix a hood and paint is a few thousand. At this point they have lost all of their profit on the car. Guess I will see how the damage looks, what the service records show, how the repair turns out and of course the price.

On one hand, these lot accidents happen all the time (well often enough). Cost of doing business. If the snow plow a contractor then the contractor's insurance company is on the hook.

Trouble can arise if the snow plow contractor's insurance company is unaware of what it costs to fix even 'minor' body damage to a Porsche or is aware but unwilling to foot the bill for a proper repair.

If the insurance company has a business 'partnership' with the body shop it can use this to push for substandard repairs to keep its costs down.

But if someone else is on the hook for paying for the repairs I would have to believe the dealer's going to push for a proper repair and would resist the at fault party's insurance company farming this repair out to Joe's Bait and Body Shop or using its influence to cause the body shop to cut corners.

If the at fault party is an employee of the dealership... the dealership almost certainly has insurance to cover things like this but will the dealer be willing to file a claim? The dealer's deductible might be nearly what the repair costs. Thus the dealer is facing a few thousand dollars in out of pocket repairs vs. a higher insurance premium at renewal time (and maybe the higher premium never resets to its lower prior level)...

If the dealer decides to pay for this repair out of pocket there is the concern the dealer will be looking to minimize costs. But the dealer has at its disposal legitimate ways to do this and without compromising the integrity of the repairs. Plus these costs arising from this are probably deductible business expenses so that lessens the pain to the dealer.

Regardless, the accident makes this used car buy a more complex deal now.

You have to rely upon the dealer doing the right thing and standing behind the body shop's work. The body shop probably relies upon no small part of its business from this dealer so the dealer has some leverage there. And this works to your advantage. But you know how quickly you can go from a favorite customer to a pain in the *ss (at least from the dealer's point of view) after the ink is dry on the car purchase contract.

I'd have to have something in writing that clearly spells out what warranty there is on this body/paint work and how long it runs, is is transferable. etc.

Even with the warranty in writing, the deal is still way more complex that most used car deals. You of course are a very interested party in the outcome of the car's repairs but since you are not the owner you have little input into these repairs.

I'd be tempted to give this vehicle a miss.

There's always another vehicle. And available under much less complicated circumstances.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

That is exactly what I am thinking. Someone backed into my 2nd S and barely left a crease in the front of the hood by the lip. I took it to the best place around (lots of exotics in lot) and $5,000 later my hood was as good as new. Good thing I didn't have to pay for it! My point is I really doubt the dealer will take it to a high end place because of the price and the shrinking profit margin. Wonder if they will want to "dump" this car with the new year and the repair?

unless it was a dealership employee w/ a plow on his personal pick-up trying to earn an extra $50 clearing the lot. More likely it was a legit plowing contractor who hit it. Needless to say, this isn't rock chip damage they are just trying to cover up using Dr. Colorchip until the 3rd car wash by the new owner. In all likelihood, they will have this repair done properly by a certified shop (hint: if the car is 'fixed' in a day you should be suspect of the paint work...). A property claim will probably be submitted for this by the plowing contractor and trust me, the dealership will milk the claim to have it fixed properly (particularly w/ month and year end closing in fast). I guess if you really want to try for a 'bargain' (where is Abe?), why not check out the maintenance records first. If they look sound, make them a low-ball offer on the car "as is" (w/ regards to the hood). Then get it fixed by the high end shop of your choice or just put a CF hood on.

Having said all that, and as the Excellence article sites, there is no shortage of good early S model Boxsters out there. Why fret more over this one, just cross it off and keep looking. Incidentally, your "karma" w/ this one isn't off to a good start ...

Dealer may collect from the plowing contractor. So dealer may not be taking the total hit.

And maybe you could insist as part of the deal on a new hood and a complete front end respray in a way that doesn't show on the CarFax.

By the way, if I had a complete picture record before repairs and write-up of the damage and parts used to fix, I wouldn't be that put off buying a multi-owner car at the right price if the owner had it fixed right and it looked brand new. These aren't collector few-made cars.

Dealer's financial reporting for the year may end Friday so you may never have leverage like you have now.

Just called about the car. They do have all service records, car was very well maintained by Porsche dealerships, damage is not fixed yet from the snowplow and there is a deposit on the car. We will see if the deposit and deal goes through since the car has damage. If the deal goes through no big deal. Part of the fun for me is the thrill of the chase!

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Dealer may collect from the plowing contractor. So dealer may not be taking the total hit.

And maybe you could insist as part of the deal on a new hood and a complete front end respray in a way that doesn't show on the CarFax.

By the way, if I had a complete picture record before repairs and write-up of the damage and parts used to fix, I wouldn't be that put off buying a multi-owner car at the right price if the owner had it fixed right and it looked brand new. These aren't collector few-made cars.

Dealer's financial reporting for the year may end Friday so you may never have leverage like you have now.

My experience with Porsche dealership service is almost 100% positive. But there was the Turbo incident and the Porsche dealer I relied upon to partner with teh body shop to repair my Turbo let me down. Fortunately, with my body shop owner/friend/advisor we (mainly he) spotted things the body shop needed to deal with. And based on the number of things we found from the outside looking in (so to speak) I took the car over to Livermore Porsche and paid to have the tech remove the front bumper cover and even as he was removing the cover he found mis-installed hardware, missing hardware, the headlight connector broken, the headlight washer not working, the hoses/cabling mis-routed or flopping about, the headlight base out of position, and so on.

Thankfully and to the body shop owner's credit he took the Turbo back and nearly a month later all the body shop issues were addressed, the headlight base properly positioned, the bumper cover fasteners correct and all present, headlight and bumper and fender gaps even and matching, everything taken care of.

But some of the things found wrong with the car should have been caught by the Porsche dealership service department as part of its responsibility for repairing the car's mechanical systems. The headlight issues, the bumper cover hardware, to name two.

Then servicing I wanted to done while the car was laid up: front/rear diff fluid changes, tranny fluid change; was not done. And servicing that I was paying for out of my pocket, too.

For instance while I had asked the diffs and tranny fluid be changed, when I picked up the car I found just the front diff fluid change was done. When I asked why the tranny and rear diff not done for an answer I just got a shrug.

Then after I had the car back awhile the steering didn't feel right and I took the car to this dealer to have the alignment checked -- and had to push a bit cause both the SM and tech assured me the alignment had been done. Then I watched as the tech in fitting the claw like devices to the wheels banged the claw arms against the side of the Turbo's fenders.

Now, I have had the Boxster serviced at this dealer more than once and the techs that worked on the car and that I met and graciously answered my questions about the car and its condition are as good as any Porsche techs at any dealer I've ever used, but there appear to be a few at this dealer not so good, or the service department management is not as good as it should be to ensure every service is of the proper quality and meets with the standards we expect and pay for.

To add insult to injury after I got the car back and drove it the rear tires wore out in record time (around 7K miles). I had new tires fitted and the alignment done at another dealership (Livermore). The tech there found the alignment way out of spec way more than it should have been due to normal alignment drift (which is based on my experience is nil).

After the new tires were installed the alignment set correctly tire life once again climbed to the usual 15k miles or thereabouts.

This dealer that I had been assured would work with the body shop to bring my car back to its pre-collision condition no longer gets my car service business and won't get any more used (or new) car business from me either. Thankfully there are several other dealers around -- one in Livermore just 1.5 miles from my house -- that I can rely upon to provide me with good service.

My point is that even though the Turbo was being repaired due to no fault of the dealership, its personal, or even a contractor, with insurance covering the cost of repairs (ending up totaling around $25K), the dealership let me down.

Had I not been skeptical -- and fortunate enough to have an experienced and very generous body shop owner on my side and a Livermore dealership willing to help me out in a pinch to inspect me car -- at the hands of this dealership the Turbo would have experienced a substandard repair, one that would have had the car lose value and possibly its CPO warranty, which as I've covered before came in very handy when the transmission developed a leak and was replaced under this CPO warranty. The transmission replacement could have cost me over $10K out of pocket had the CPO warranty been invalidated.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Seems to be competitively priced compared to other cars on the net. Especially seeing 04's for $25-27K. If this 987 has all records, etc., I think it could be a decent car. They say final price is 28450 and as usual they have several interested parties at this price.

[www.bachmanchevrolet.com]

Some of the '05 cars came from the factory with the "final revision" IMS bearing whose size prevents replacement without a full engine tear down. And, to my knowledge, the only way to know is to pull the flywheel and look. That could limit your ability to take preventative steps, if you are so inclined.................

And I just love the "6 Speed Manuel transmission" listed in the ad... ....

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 03:09PM by JFP in PA. (view changes)

to be heavily sooted up and the other clean.

How did a Chevy dealer end up with car?

Also, given how the GM and GMC employees treated my 06 GTO (hotrodding around town or the dealer's back lot in it) I wonder how have they been treating a Porsche in their possession.

Be sure to among the many things you check you get a DME overrev readout and see what the numbers are for the various ranges.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Seems that the car was well cared for and had all service at the local (where initially bought) Porsche dealer. All things done according to schedule, oil changes, services, brake flush, etc.

So if I go back to the beginning from when I have been watching, the car was listed for $28,950 and they could come down to $28450 but that was absolutely the lowest price. Looked online today and it is listed for $27,900. Why is dealing with car dealerships and car salesmen so painful?? Ironically this is the lowest priced 05 S with the lowest mileage on the web. Next closest cars either have 50K miles or are $34K.

Quote
SeaNile
Seems that the car was well cared for and had all service at the local (where initially bought) Porsche dealer. All things done according to schedule, oil changes, services, brake flush, etc.

So if I go back to the beginning from when I have been watching, the car was listed for $28,950 and they could come down to $28450 but that was absolutely the lowest price. Looked online today and it is listed for $27,900. Why is dealing with car dealerships and car salesmen so painful?? Ironically this is the lowest priced 05 S with the lowest mileage on the web. Next closest cars either have 50K miles or are $34K.

You should seek to determine as best you can the actual/true market price of the car. This market price must include any adjustments for mileage, lack of service, or service or wear items needed, etc, then once you have the market price (and some justifcation for it -- believe or not I've been asked where I got my offer and if one can rattle of a list of cars for sale and their prices and market conditions, how long the dealer has had some cars on his lot, etc., this just strengthens your position) make your offer to the dealer.

Your market researched price is probably low, so the price you buy the car for will probably be above this so set some realistic limit. (Don't go in thinking the market price is $25K and set your limit to $27.9K.)

Say the dealer's asking $28K. Say you believe the car is worth $24K. (Just a number.) You make the offer to buy the car for $24K. Dealer says no way and comes back at you with either the original asking price number or gives you another number, a bit lower like in your post say $500 lower.

Act like you are considering the new number. Hem and haw and whip out your calculator and punch in some numbers and consult your notes on other cars (Porsche or BMWs or whatever (even if you have no intention of buying any of these cars) and even excuse yourself to walk outside in order to call your financial advisor. Then make a cell phone call. I call a friend or family member to kill some time.

After a few minutes of some or all of the above, very reluctantly raise your offer. Don't jump to say $27K or even split the difference. If for instance you have faith in your market research and have set your max offer limit to $25K, raise your offer to $24.5K. If the offer refused again make with the hemming/hawing and notes consulting and calculator show.

Take your time. Minutes.

Walk outside and walk about like you're deep in thought. Look at your notes. If car in view of the salesman/salesmanager then walk over to the car and look it over again and look at your notes. Scribble some more on your notes. You get the idea.

Then come back in and with even greater reluctance bump your offer to $24.7K.

Dealer gets the message he knows what your max. price is. If he can't or won't accept your offer even when you're at you max. offer limit you'll know it. Then very politely thank the dealer for his time and walk away. Do so slowly but walk away. You can always come back with a "I've changed my mind" explanation and offer more money. Not a huge amount, but some. Or there is always another car.

There are all sorts of variations on the above so customize it to something that suits you and that you can be convincing in then act it out.

Unless your market research horribly wrong -- and it may be but no shame in that cause you're learning -- try not to be too surprised when you hear: "we'll take it".

More than once I've gone through the above with the salesman leaving me to sit while he goes through his interactions with his salesmanager then watch the salesman come back with a look on his face that suggests he stepped in some dog doo on his way from the manager's office to where I'm sitting only to have him come up and say "we'll take it".

BTW, that 'look' is as my dad explained to me once is understandable cause the salesmanager just accepted the offer and the salesman just saw his fat commission fly out the window. No wonder the salesman has the look on his face he has.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I was in the lady's kitchen, a very upper class house overlooking the pasture where they kept their horses. I said I don't know, let me look. I went out to my car and reached in and read some actual quotes I had gotten somewhere. Came back to her and said "based on some comparables I just looked at, $nnnnn is the best I can do". The offer I made was ~$4.5k less than she was asking. She took it, she just wanted it out of her garage. Her husband came home a bit later and I don't know that he was so pleased by the deal but they did agree so it went through as soon as I could get back with someone to drive me home.

It is the comparables that made the difference both in me portraying myself as an informed consumer and in my having a target I wasn't going to exceed.

Oh, by the way..the comparables said I should have paid more....lots more. She hadn't done her homework.

That wouldn't work at a dealership these days, they would just look it up. But in those days asymmetrical knowledge gave you the advantage.

You get the best deals as you are walking out the door...slowly...or walking to your car...slowly. They don't want to lose the sale and any sale at any profit is sometimes better than sitting on the car for months waiting for the next potential buyer.

My wife and I have the "good cop, bad cop" down too. We decide before we go in who is the one that is going to be saying no and who is going to pretend to be wishing for that car. Who is going to say "its time to go". If the dealer and the salesperson can do it...why not us. And we never ever make a decision in front of the salesperson...sometimes a foot outside the front door. We agreed on that 30+ years ago and it has saved us thousands.

Quote
SeaNile
Seems that the car was well cared for and had all service at the local (where initially bought) Porsche dealer. All things done according to schedule, oil changes, services, brake flush, etc.

So if I go back to the beginning from when I have been watching, the car was listed for $28,950 and they could come down to $28450 but that was absolutely the lowest price. Looked online today and it is listed for $27,900. Why is dealing with car dealerships and car salesmen so painful?? Ironically this is the lowest priced 05 S with the lowest mileage on the web. Next closest cars either have 50K miles or are $34K.

Haven't you heard... Long (very long) gone are the days when buying a car (whether new or used) at a new car dealer is an enjoyable experience where you feel good about having worked so hard so as to be able to treat yourself to a new (or new to you) car. Quite a number of the car salesmen in a dealership are the modern-day equivalent of the worst torture masters and money-grubbers!
It is no longer about treating you fairly and making an honest, decent profit on the transaction, but, rather, how much they can squeeze out of you by using whatever means necessary. It's a tag team match where there are lots of players on their side (salesman, "manager", "big boss", "finance guy", etc... and usually only you and your spouse on the other side.
That's just reality nowadays.

If you just remember that you are the one holding th $$$$ from which they want so desperately to separate you, they can't beat you and you will end up with at least a fair deal which you will not regret. I often get the feeling that they get more satisfaction out of working you over and beating you for every penny they can get rather than having sold you a good car for a fair price. I don't think I'm mistaken about this because I've been privy to the other side's machinations through discovery in a legal case I prosecuted a few years ago. That one involved a new car purchase from a Toyota dealer in Westbury, New York and I was awestruck by the depth of their "enterprise". I got the feeling that they were like vampires afraid of the light!

Don't take it personally. Just do your homework and listen to some of the more seasoned posters here and on other forums. Remember MarcW's often repeated words: Everything that a car salesman says or does is designed for one purpose and one purpose only: to get you to buy that car and to buy it today.

Also, I'll repeat some words of wisdom that my father used to tell me when I was hot and heavy for a particular car: No matter how good and how irreplaceable you think this particular deal is, there is ALWAYS another car that will be a better deal out there. That advice has never failed me and I'm sure you will have a similar experience in your own purchase.

Do a search on PPBB.com (the predecessor to this forum) for "Abe Evrens" and you can read about his quest for a Boxster about 2 years ago. Very entertaining, and very educational!

Regards, Maurice.

Car is about 500 miles away so I can't do the slow walk away as this would be done via email, phone and wire $$. Big picture, I don't think $27900 is a terrible price at all, especially when you look online and see the other 05 S cars with low miles going for $33K+. I doubt the car will sell for $24K but I also am not in a rush and know there will be other cars out there. If I think about Mike's Carmax comments, there is about $2K in this car so on trade someone accepted 25K or so. That certainly is a good price for such a low mile car!

acceptable, and a very thorough check out of the car and a PPI by an independent qualified shop turns up nothing, then buy the car.

You only have to satisfy yourself. There's no need to try to beat everyone and get the best best best deal. Unless I'm shopping for a car my feel for the market is almost certainly out of date and I could be underestimating or overestimating what the car's market price is. You're closer to the car and the market and your judgement is going to be more accurate than mine.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

28K is not a bad price for the car, given it's low miles. A couple of things to consider if you decide to make an offer on this car....

1. It's winter. Convertibles are not in demand as impulse buys.

2. In two days, this will be a six year old car, not five.

3. Don't be scared to make an offer YOU can't refuse! Sometimes folks act scared that the dealer will be insulted and refuse further negotiations....never seen it happen.

4. Negotiate something other than just the price. Ex. Make a low offer but let then know you will buy it today.

Best of luck on your quest!

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Something I always add in to the deal if buying from a dealer. For the next 30 days, I get to buy from your shop any part or accessory I want at your cost. No markup. Costs them very little and there is almost always something I feel the need for. You could even negotiate a 5 year you could buy a remanufactured engine at cost deal. There are all sorts of ways to create value for you while seeming to preserve the dealer's margins on the car sale. The folks there don't care because they are interested in this quarter's bonus and they won't be there 4 years from now probably. .

Spoke to a Porsche dealer this am. They have a very similar 05 S for sale and are asking $32,000. I told them in all reality I would not be buying from them but asked how they got to that price. They emailed the transaction info over to me and told be most 05 S cars with low miles will be traded at about $25000, add in the CPO costs, etc and they are at 29K for the car and asking $32K. So, the 05 S I am looking at is not a CPO car and at a non Porsche dealer so I am thinking they probably traded it around $25-25,500 and are looking to make $2000 which puts it in the mid to low $27,000 range. Not terrible but I want to be around $26,000 if this is going to happen. All of this riding on a successful PPI of course.

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

I read the post by Seanile that SOMEONE ELSE placed a deposit on the very same car that Senile has been hemmin' and hawin' about for over a week.

There's no way on earth that would have happened if Abe had been running the show - he'd have had the dealer so tied up in knots he'd not be able to even TALK to another person much less take a deposit.

Happy New Year Abe, wherever you are. I think I'm begining to actually miss your posts.

And Happy New year to everyone else too.

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

It's actually a name of a boat I use to have. The story behind it is back in 87 my father and I went to the NY Boat show and in a surprise move my dad bought a boat at the show, without my mom really knowing. So after everything settles and the boat is getting prepared a few months later the discussion of naming the boat comes up. Well somehow my mom found out the price and said "you're going F'n senile." We all paused and knew the boat had just been named.

I just kept SeaNile as a screen name since about 2000 in various forums and email. The boat, and next boat have been gone for a while now....

Ok, ok, maybe I got a bit carried away with all the Chistmas cheer.

--
MY 2000 S, Ocean Blue, Metropol Blue, Savanah Beige.
Bought June 2000 - Sold May 2010

Really? You think, especially after you told them you don't want their car, they'd dispense to you their deepest pricing secret............

Good luck in your search

Ed from Long Island (Tampa)
05S Cobalt/Blue/Blue

I also found another 05 S, 30K miles at an Infinity dealer asking $24,985. I'm not interested in the car but the price is more realistic.

I think $26000 is a fair price if the car is flawless with no issues. It being at a VW/Subaru dealer makes me a little suspicious. If it was at a Pcar dealer they would know the car and what to look for a little better. At $26900 it is at the low end of the advertised prices of the web. Not that any of the $30K+ cars are selling but there are few sub $30K 05 S cars out there with under 30K miles I'm patient, if it's not this car there will be others hitting the market in the future. We've just barely entered the winter season and have a long time until it's top down driving weather here in Philly.

worth owning.

Sure, if a Porsche dealer is offering the car chances are better the car would be under less suspicion but it wouldn't be free of any.

There is some who believe that now's the time to buy a car for the spring. There are others who believe that this is such a well-known 'fact' that shoppers take advantage of this and there is no real difference between buying a car now and later in the year, when the weather's nicer. You run the risk of the economy picking up and the market getting hotter for these cars. Part of your market research has to be dedicated to trying to as best you can forecast what the near future market looks like.

The dealer probably has in the car low book or even "below" the low book. This is auto auction wholesale price which is what he probably offered as a trade-in allowance or paid for the car to bring in a 'halo' car.

Some non-Porsche car dealers like to pick up Porsche (or other marque) cars and use them to spruce up their showrooms. The dealer doesn't make its living selling these cars, but the eye candy aspect helps bring in the customers for the lesser cars. And because the dealer's got so little in the car it can afford to price the car high.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I've always had PPI's done on all but one car I purchased. My latest interest, an 06 S with under 10K miles, would also get a PPI, I think....

Of the 3 PPI's I have had done, not one issue was came up and I felt like $300 was wasted each time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 05:20PM by SeaNile. (view changes)

if the PPI's you've paid for didn't inform you of lots of things you didn't know about a prospective car. Look at the form Pedro uses as an example. I know when my current Boxster had a PPI 5 years ago I learned about about 20 items that were not obvious. Trivial things like thickness of rotors, missing air scoops under the car, cylinder condition, alignment, etc. Would I have caught them all, no.

So I have offers in on two different 987 cars. Here are the details.

05 S (same car mentioned in this mega long thread), 20K miles, bose, xenon, heated seats, colored crests and an original msrp of $58K. Car has new tires and we are at $26,900. I offered 25K, it is at a non-Pcar dealer and the car was taken in on trade.

06 S, 10K miles, tracked 4x for a total of 150 miles, bose, heated seats, short shift, colored crests, 19" wheels, aftermarket exhaust and original will be sent with car. Advertised for $34,700 offered 28K. Privately owned, comes with car cover.

I will know about the 06 S tonight and if accepted will schedule PPI. If the 28K is rejected I will pursue the 05 S.