At 198k miles, I say you have a great excuse for a new Boxster. *NM*

Driving about 55 mph in traffic on rt 202 near West Chester...... miss, miss, threw in clutch, engine died and dash lit up. No warnings or overheating. I just checked the oil 1/2 hour prior. Won't really turn over but starter and engine make a wummm, wummm sound when I engage the starter - I am not sure the engine is turning. It has been using oil faster than before but not extreme.

Flatbedding to my indy. Will know tomorrow. If dead, it will be my second engine to blow. 2000S, with 197K miles on chassis and 150K miles on Porsche installed warranty engine.

So.... what would you do if the engine is dead? The car is in really amazing shape and I just put new tires, control arms, oxygen sensor, CV boots, coolant tank crack (2nd one to go) etc. etc. three weeks ago.

Darn.....

Bruce

That way you have your "amazing shape" car, plus a sound motor that just had the dominant failure mode removed.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Probably want Grant suggested. A good replacement engine though I think I'd draw the line at the LN bearing upgrade step,but use your own good judgement.

But the basic foundation (read car) is good,more than good, so while you won't get your money out of the car you regain use of a very nice car that you can't replace for anything close to what you'd get for the car as it is.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I'm just through an engine replacement myself -- ironically my engine blew near where yours did.

If the car's in good shape, I'd put another engine in. This is what I've done and I think I made the right move, although many disagree.

Here. The used engine with IMS option leads to a whole series of choices about water pump, AOS, etc type parts that can be more easily replaced while the engine is out of the car. Slippery slope.

Sorry to hear of your problem/opportunity.

Crap.

I don't know what to do. Thanx all for your input, and Mike for your writeup.

Here is what I know so far (please feel free to comment on each):

1 - I have an Indy I trust - ex-Porsche foreman at dealer, 20+ years on Porsches - does engine re-builds - His rents space for his shop out at Aquilante's Phoenix Performance (if you are into racing, you know who he is) so he has machinists, head guys etc they work with.
2 - New engine from Porsche is about $16K - he says Porsche will probably reject the core ($2K) as they tend to do for Indy's otherwise engine is about $14K. This was an older price list so there may be updated pricing.
3 - Raby's rebuilt replacement is virtually the same price but has his upgrades
4 - My Indy recommends rebuilding the engine, worse case $13K and includes sending the intermediate shaft to LN for their triple row bearing (if shaft is salvageable) and other "upgraded" parts as needed - by the way, he noted that LN's single row bearing is now failing and my indy had one that failed after 5K miles.
5 - Buy a used replacement car for around 15K (he knows of a 2002 Boxster S with 60K miles that the guy wants about $15k for but the color is that awful silver/rose color - sorry if I just offended anyone)
6 - He is now contacting the 3 or 4 large dismantlers for a used engine and of course the 3.4 alternative (I believe only a 2000 & 2001 are easy replacements). He is worried about these engines as you just are not sure you are getting a good one. Found a replacement on eBay as we were talking on the phone for $2,500 but I am not doing eBay for this.

I will keep you updated and let me know any more ideas you all have.

Darn, Crap, Poop.

Bruce

... after I blew my engine at Sebring at 203,000 miles.
I bought a used engine off of the auction site (paid $1,500.00 - I know, I got a great deal).
When it arrived I took it apart and replaced the seals, gaskets, rings, tensioners and the IMS bearing.
Put it back together and back into the car for more track work and daily driving.
I spent about $2,600 in parts so my final cost was about $5,000.
I haven't regretted it.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

..and why doping the IMS is a critical step in your process.

I'd rather have a good sued motor with an LN IMS than a new motor.

Why?

Thee motors are actually very durable. The problems are few, but potentially catastrophic ( as you found out, sorry...)

The cylinder walls basically don't wear - they are locasil coated/impregnated. The valve train seems durable ( aside from that pesky transfer shaft...). For example, i just did an oil analysis on my car - 50k miles; much hard (track) use. Almost zero wear metals present ( i posted the lab report here).

I never hear of these motors just getting old - throwing a rod, smoking, losing compression. Its always catastrophic, and it seems 95% of those are IMS. Two right here in the office i work at (both 996s by the way).

Focus on the problem, not the non-problems.

So if you replace the relatively few critical parts, you are overall better off than a new motor with a ticking bomb deep within.

Good used motors should be available for $3-4k

Add a couple K for various upgrades and preventative maint - cheap while its on a bench.

Add a couple K to install it. Look at your clutch, Pp and throw-out at the same time.

Do motor mounts if there is any sign of degradation.

you are done

Dismantlers buy these cars all the time. You don't need an entire donor car.

take a deep breath. I think you can actually have a better car than you started with.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Ok, if I get a used engine: (my mechanic is not real comfortable with this idea as I think he worries about problems after his install)

- Why not a 3.4? I understand that a 2000 or 20001 will go in fairly easily with no DME changes, same harness. Requires some work of course, fuel rails flipped, something in the transmission flipped.... still having trouble finding data except that these two years are "easy".
- Mechanic is now making the typical calls to the well and lesser known dismantlers
- What do I look for in a used engine when talking to a dismantler? Mileage? etc......

Quote
Bruce In Philly (195K+)
Ok, if I get a used engine: (my mechanic is not real comfortable with this idea as I think he worries about problems after his install)

- Why not a 3.4? I understand that a 2000 or 20001 will go in fairly easily with no DME changes, same harness. Requires some work of course, fuel rails flipped, something in the transmission flipped.... still having trouble finding data except that these two years are "easy".
- Mechanic is now making the typical calls to the well and lesser known dismantlers
- What do I look for in a used engine when talking to a dismantler? Mileage? etc......

when talking to a dismantler? His warranty/return policy.

He may not know anything about the engine other than out of what car it came from.

Even if he knows the engine better than his own face and knows the used engine is pristine that's no guarantee the engine will not have any issues.

Hate to mention this in your time of pain but this replacement engine could undergo a failed IMS bearing just miles after you have it installed.

What you are after is some mitigation should the used engine out of the shipping crate be damaged, or missing vital parts or prove to be sick.

This is why you must deal with a dismantler with a good rep and a good return policy.

Ideally if one is searching for a used engine it would be nice to hear it run before buying it. To do this you have to deal with a local business or if one some distance away maybe your indy guy has someone nearby he can call upon to at least go hear the engine run before you order it?

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I said replace the IMS with the LN unit. Then you do know, within reason, that it wont fail.

OK, it could. And an asteroid could hit it too. So I'm wrong. But not really.

You have to think about where the motor comes from. A car that got hit in the nose? Good donor: you know why its in the junk yard. You know it was hit at the other end. There is no reason to think its anything more or less than a boxster with XX,000 miles on it.

One that appears OK and is just a tired wreck, i'd avoid.

I agree that the return policy is critical. You would want to ability to receive the motor, take a look at the condition (head off, maybe oil pan off) and then say "yea or nea". Look at valves, look for sludge, look at cross-hatch. I've never done this. maybe you can;t. But i would shop until i had one i was comfortable with.

this is one reason to buy the same motor you have, BTW - you have some spare parts.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
I said replace the IMS with the LN unit. Then you do know, within reason, that it wont fail.

OK, it could. And an asteroid could hit it too. So I'm wrong. But not really.

You have to think about where the motor comes from. A car that got hit in the nose? Good donor: you know why its in the junk yard. You know it was hit at the other end. There is no reason to think its anything more or less than a boxster with XX,000 miles on it.

One that appears OK and is just a tired wreck, i'd avoid.

I agree that the return policy is critical. You would want to ability to receive the motor, take a look at the condition (head off, maybe oil pan off) and then say "yea or nea". Look at valves, look for sludge, look at cross-hatch. I've never done this. maybe you can;t. But i would shop until i had one i was comfortable with.

this is one reason to buy the same motor you have, BTW - you have some spare parts.

Grant

by a LN version one can know it won't fail "within reason".

That same could be said about the stock IMSB.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

One is probably over-engineered, btu that's what i want in an area known to have issues.

Plus, any new part has a longer life expectancy - so even replacing it with stock would be a good thing. But i would not, i'd put in the bearing that is larger, made of harder materials, and is designed to catch normal crankcase lubrication, rather than keep it out (and thus depend on grease that came from the factory and spends the next X years going away).

None of us have the statistics that may be available in 10 years. But we don't have 10 years to wait, so we must use our best judgement.
Big means forec and eat distributed over more area and mass
Hard means lower wear ( the balls are hard, the race is not)
Open means better long-term splash lubrication.
QED.

My advice stands, and i put my money where my mouth is!

(there's a joke just lying there about choking on it........)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
One is probably over-engineered, btu that's what i want in an area known to have issues.

Plus, any new part has a longer life expectancy - so even replacing it with stock would be a good thing. But i would not, i'd put in the bearing that is larger, made of harder materials, and is designed to catch normal crankcase lubrication, rather than keep it out (and thus depend on grease that came from the factory and spends the next X years going away).

None of us have the statistics that may be available in 10 years. But we don't have 10 years to wait, so we must use our best judgement.
Big means forec and eat distributed over more area and mass
Hard means lower wear ( the balls are hard, the race is not)
Open means better long-term splash lubrication.
QED.

My advice stands, and i put my money where my mouth is!

(there's a joke just lying there about choking on it........)

Grant

with a new part has some risk associated with it. New parts can fail.The installation can be botched. All major car makers recognize this with a new car warranty and parts/labor warranty in any repairs.

I do not have the time to delve into the assumptions that in this application harder bearing material is better, an open bearing is better than a sealed bearing and so on.

You can believe what you want to believe. You can elect to install the LN upgrade or not. I have chosen to not install it and while I alway reserve the right to change my mind I have no plans to have this done when (if) my Boxster's clutch ever needs doing.

In spite of all the talk back and forth I do not believe at this time an aftermarket solution is any better than the stock solution. The new solution is simply unproven given the small number of installations and miles accumulated in all types of driving styles/servicing intervals, etc. to have any confidence on my part the after market solution is not simply a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

I do note that apparently there is another aftermarket solution in the works, at least in the testing phase. This to me casts a bit of doubt (further doubt on my part) onto the current aftermarket solution.

However, I do not seek to sway any one away from what they deem the best for their situation. While I have strong opinions on these matters and will share them at the slightest provocation regarding how to drive the car, how to service the car, what to service the car with, where to service the car, and so on and including whether to install an after market IMSB solution (or not) is entirely up to the car's owner.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I have no objection to the 3.4, i just dont know enough.

Concerns:

More money. Poorer fuel economy. Fear of unknown.

But if you want the torque, and the numbers work, go for it. I was just focused on getting a solid motor back in there.
I dont know enough to speculate on what fits without issue, and without placing strain on other components (tranny...)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

it was $16K with a suitable core and $26K without.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Maybe I heard him wrong..... I will be talking again to him a day or so and get re-confirmation.

Bruce

... PCA race-mechanic types here in NJ that might be able to help ( and make a few bucks en route)

ping me (not PM) or email me if you want info. My PM indicator is on 24/7 so its useless.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

to wait a few days when the emotion has subsided a bit. You don't want to regret the choice. Recall that in the first mile out of the shop, some clown could total the car so stuff does happen. But assuming it doesn't, you want to be at least content with the decision you made and not be kicking yourself for the next 5 years.

Re the 3.4 swap, go over to Pelican and they have articles on the engine swaps and what they involve.

I'm somewhat interested in the statements your Indy made about LN bearing failures. I've heard of a few early life failures due to proven or suspected installation issues but really only one later life failure from unknown causes. I'd have thought the failures (if true) would have hit the forums (I do still monitor 8 of them on three continents...gasp).

My Indy was pretty clear about it, he had one single row LN failure. I don't know how many my indy has done but he and one of his mechanics say they do them "pretty often" with clutch replacements. He called LN to discuss and they admitted they were having failures of this single row unit. They are currently working on another that involves something with "oil circulation" but won't be available for a "while".

Of course, how many were installed, how many failed..... don't know. The other feedback from LN was the other bearing types were not failing.

On another point, my indy said that should I want him to rebuild my engine, he would send the intermediate shaft (assuming it is still good) to LN for a special triple row bearing. I had not heard of this option but it requires sending the shaft to LN with about 6 weeks turnaround. I don't know the price for this or what they do... I assume the shaft requires some machining.

Bruce

I have not heard of any since very early days. Doesn't mean they don't occur, but it would really make me wonder what's going on, especial since so many OEM IMSs work well for 100k+ miles.

There is a body of anecdotal evidence (including a statement from my oil analysis lab) that cars driven often and hard, with poil changed regularly, hold up much better.

Oil draining off surfaces?
Water and acid contamination?
.......?

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Seems there are changes to the LN bearing assembly I didn't know about.

There have been some failures in the single row LN bearings but none in the last 2 years since they switched to steel cages (I'll call these the Rev 2s). Some of the failure samples of the Single Row Rev 1s they have received may have been due to failures in some other components that spread debris throughout the engine causing the IMSB to fail eventually too. But at least for one it was suspected that the bearing assembly failed which is what occasioned the switch in materials. The total failure rate is, even including the Rev 1 single rows, less than .2%. (8 of 7k+)

No failures in the dual row LN bearings.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I have no details of exactly when by serial number, invoice number or shipping date the change was effected.

And let's keep in mind "guarantee" doesn't mean something won't fail; just that there will be some kind of "make good" if failure occurs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2012 09:00AM by Laz. (view changes)

Just to grab some data points, I stopped into my local Porsche dealer to see what used, CPO Porsches were going for. I asked an open question "What was the cheapest CPO Boxster S they had in their system?". It appears the CPO warranty is 100K miles (don't know the time limit)

I got a few data points:

1 - '09 Boxster S, 29K miles, $44K,
2 - '07 Caymen S, 18K miles, $42K
3 - '11 Camen S, ??Kmiles, $59K

Again, I just wanted a few data points.

QUESTIONS:

1 - What is the dope on these new shaftless engines, particularly their first year of '09?
2 - Is and '07 shafted car "fixed" by Porsche as the salesman said (OK no jokes here); my indy said the only fix was its redesign and elimination.

Do not assume that because I am looking at used prices that I am going to toss my car; as I said, I am just gathering some data points.

Bruce

Just a rumination.

I have been reading about shaft failures, are they "real", estimates of percentages, internet forum effects on perception, etc etc etc for 12 year now, and tried to be an objective observer of my own emotions and then how I triggered or withheld my spend. A few things:

1 - I have now had two IMS failures. These are my very real, personal experiences
2 - I believe I made a mistake by not installing the LN bearing when I had many chances to do so (obviously)
3 - I believed, falsely, that since my engine had over 100K miles on it (a few year ago), that I had a "good one" - why I believed this is unknown to me as I think it was emotions driven
4 - Sometimes, there really is an axe murderer hiding in your closet. Oh no? Then explain this axe stuck in my wallet.

In short, I now can stand on the conviction born of personal experience, that if you plan on keeping your car for a "few more years" you should get the LN replacement regardless of how many miles on it or how you drive. What appeared expensive to me is now pretty darn cheap. I always planned on keeping my car for the long long haul so therefore I should have done the preventative maintenance - I did so meticulously on everything else so therefore I was stupid given my own maintenance approach to the car. These engines are grenades. Sorry guys, but can you blame me? Think about it.

On another note, why did it take Porsche so long to redesign this engine? I think there is one fundamental answer: because they could... Look, they are a business after all. Think about this: even after these major problems, I still want to drive a Porsche as it has been a really fun car to drive. Is this sick or what? I am rewarding a company for pushing the limits on consumer tolerance. Porsche execs are a pretty smart lot.

Bruce

Bruce,

I have been monitoring your thread, and thinking "There but for fortune......."

I was wondering about a couple things:
1. Do you do your own oil changes?
2. Regardless, Have you or your mechanic been cutting open the oil filter to inspect it for debris when you change your oil? (This seems to be be accepted method of catching one of these grenades before they blow up).

I followed the maintenance schedule like a religion. I did not do my own changes. We never cut open a filter.

1. I dont believe there are likely "good" and "bad" examples out there. Oh, i'm sure there is some small % of manufacturing defects, but that would account for only a small number of failures - not the number i perceive. i think, rather, that there are good and bad combinations of use, maintenance, warm-up, environment, etc. that collectively lead to the IMS's fate

2. I also don't believe that low mileage is a panacea. In fact, from what i see and hear, often-used, hard driven, well-maintained cars exhibit lower failures rates than those that are babied or garaged. All we can do is speculate as to why, but oil splash and acid / water accumulation come immediately to mind.

Even Blackstone labs commented on better results from hard-driven cars.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Bruce:

If you'd be doing a rebuild with a used engine--new rods, pistons,rod bolts, lifters, mains...etc, I'd make a guess that it would be north of $10K plus the used engine. By the time you're done you're probably close to a LN 3.6L motor price; when I was thinking about keeping our 987 long term, the $18K in an LN engine--with all it's fixes, built by people that do this all day--seemed to make the most sense.

Regarding the 3.4L conversion--had a friend that went through this and it has been a real "journey" for him for a number of reason; matching the car and new motor DME's, along with keeping the motor mounted high enough to avoid ground clearance issues can avoid some post installation headaches.

Just something that is on my mind at this point:

I agree with you about the LN engine - put it this way, there is no way I would buy a new, flawed, Porsche engine.... no way.

But..... and here is where I am really having an issue:. Do I want to put say close to $20K into a meticulously maintained chassis with 197K miles on it? Remember the cooling braking etc. systems are all original and 12 years old.

This is really tough. Oh, FWIW, I really don't find the newer models compelling.... I mean I think they are great, but no big step over what I owned for 12 years. About a month ago I test drove a few year old Caymen with a friend who was considering one, and while the car was "better" than mine, it was not that much better IMO.

Bruce

Quote
Bruce In Philly (195K+)
Just something that is on my mind at this point:

I agree with you about the LN engine - put it this way, there is no way I would buy a new, flawed, Porsche engine.... no way.

But..... and here is where I am really having an issue:. Do I want to put say close to $20K into a meticulously maintained chassis with 197K miles on it? Remember the cooling braking etc. systems are all original and 12 years old.

This is really tough. Oh, FWIW, I really don't find the newer models compelling.... I mean I think they are great, but no big step over what I owned for 12 years. About a month ago I test drove a few year old Caymen with a friend who was considering one, and while the car was "better" than mine, it was not that much better IMO.

Bruce

OK, this is IF the replacement engine ends up costing $20K. You are still buying an engine design that's got the part that's bitten you twice.

Looking at the listing you found, an 09 Boxster S with 29K miles at $44K (and this is an asking price, so you'd expect to be able to buy it for less), if you spent another roughly $20K, you'd have much newer car, under CPO warranty. As you said, a lot of things on your car are now 12 years old - brake system, suspension, cooling, AC etc, so some of those might require replacement/repair. And of course, you wouldn't have the part that's bitten you twice.

... with new pistons and rods, lifters, etc?
If you ever open one of these M96/M97 engines you'll see that generally there is no discernible wear on the cylinders, pistons, valves, etc., even at over 200,000 miles!
What I recommend people do is to REFRESH the engine by replacing rings, seals, chain tensioners and IMSB which is not very expensive.
This takes care of most of the engine's wear items and produces a very good used motor for transplant.
I've done this at least a dozen times for customers.
None have regretted it.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Pedro:

I tend to look at this from the perspective of someone that tracks their car, so the idea of preemptively going through these potential failure points makes sense. I say that from reports from the guys on the Cayman board/Cayman Register that track their 987.1 cars extensively and even with oiling system changes, have experienced engine failures--some multiple faliures, with most of the fingers pointing at the connecting rods/rod bolts as the failure point.

Having said that,in a street car I would think these rod failure issues might all be moot and so the "refreshed" used engine would make perfect sense.

Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
... with new pistons and rods, lifters, etc?
If you ever open one of these M96/M97 engines you'll see that generally there is no discernible wear on the cylinders, pistons, valves, etc., even at over 200,000 miles!
What I recommend people do is to REFRESH the engine by replacing rings, seals, chain tensioners and IMSB which is not very expensive.
This takes care of most of the engine's wear items and produces a very good used motor for transplant.
I've done this at least a dozen times for customers.
None have regretted it.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

... just as much as anyone else.
I had a connecting rod failure at 203,000 miles.
Connecting Rod # 6.
But even at that high mileage (over 25,000 at the track) the cylinders, pistons and valves still looked great!
I bet you that most if not all of the connecting rod failures are piston rod #3 or #6.
Why?
Because of oil starvation.
Pistons #3 and #6 are the farthest from the oil pumps and are the ones that suffer the most from starvation, heating up to the point of fatigue.
The cure is not to run on stickies or to add a secondary lubrication system such as the Accusump.
I truly believe it's overkill to replace the rods and pistons, but if I get a customer wanting me to do it, I'll tell him/her this story and if he/she wants to still do it, you bet I'll do it
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

The normal wear on these motors is very low.

Non IMS failures all seem to come from lubrication starvation, and those only seem to occur on track-prepared cars on slicks. They used to say only Caymans, but i think well prepared cars with things like techno braces and slicks start to get in that realm.

I have also heard of chain and chain guide wear, so that's a really good idea, especially the tensioners (which, BTW are accessible external to the motor, as is the IMS

I'm surprised the rings wear that much. They are more like work to get at.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I think in such condition it’s better to buy used engine for car. As you said your car has no problem other than this, hence it will be good to go on sites like buyusedengine.com and buy a high quality used engine at feasible price. Even you can look on your local salvage junk yards too, you can find replacement engine there as well.

... and did as you stated, with minor refresh (nto as extensive as Pedro suggested though).

Here's the thing with used motors - you can get good ones and not so good ones. All the cars i have ever owned from new or near new are near perfect a decade or more later. The used ones inevitably have issues. The used motor i bought, while "ok" shows both wear metals in UOA and uses some oil (inconsistently) and smokes ( also inconsistently). Its a track car. It may hold up, and it may not. But used motors are not all equal, they are not easily characterized by mileage, and they are hard to qualify before buying, unless you know the history ( as i di on the balance of Bruce's car).

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Rebuilding a Boxster engine is much cheaper than replacing it with a Flat 6 engine (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about - AFAIK LN doesn't sell engines).

As far are the DMEs are concerned I'd be interested in hearing more detail about your friend's troubles. The Boxster and the 911 use the exact same DME with different programming.

Did a search to backup my Indy's comments on $10-15K and found this on the Cayman board:
[www.planet-9.com]

Not much info, but that $15k price was referenced to do the upper and lower ends of the motor.

Quote
Bruce In Philly (195K+)
Just to grab some data points, I stopped into my local Porsche dealer to see what used, CPO Porsches were going for. I asked an open question "What was the cheapest CPO Boxster S they had in their system?". It appears the CPO warranty is 100K miles (don't know the time limit)

I got a few data points:

1 - '09 Boxster S, 29K miles, $44K,
2 - '07 Caymen S, 18K miles, $42K
3 - '11 Camen S, ??Kmiles, $59K

Again, I just wanted a few data points.

QUESTIONS:

1 - What is the dope on these new shaftless engines, particularly their first year of '09?
2 - Is and '07 shafted car "fixed" by Porsche as the salesman said (OK no jokes here); my indy said the only fix was its redesign and elimination.

Do not assume that because I am looking at used prices that I am going to toss my car; as I said, I am just gathering some data points.

Bruce

and covered everything that went wrong with my car (bought used with around 10K miles on it) except a bad battery. Everything that went wrong included: noisy idler roller bearing, snapped radiator fan motor shaft (tech had never seen this failure before), failed clutch accumulator and slave cylinder, snapped shifter linkage, and a leaking 6-speed selector shaft seal which as a filx had the dealer replace this tranny with one supplied by the factory.

A CPO warranty is very very nice but you have to consider it only has worth if the car is driven some miles. In my car's case the car had around 60K miles on it when the warranty expired on time. I wanted to get the miles to as close to 50K as possible - and it was easy as it was and is a delightful car to drive -- as I felt this would bring forth any "new" car problems.

It doesn't do any real good to get a CPO car and then not drive it much in the 2 years.

As for the new engines I have been following them since day one because at some point I will probably pick up a car with one and want to know what I'm getting into.

So far, I have not come across anything inherently wrong with the enigne. There are rumors of combustion (valve) deposit buildup and some owners are freaky about soot at the exhaust outlet but the techs I talk too love the engines and love them much more than the previous engine models in the NA cars.

There have been some fuel pump issues. On a trip some time back at a distant dealer a tech told me that at least for a subset of these cars there is a recall in effect that will have the high presure fuel pump (there are two pumps, a low pressure and a high pressure) replaced under some kind of semi-secret warranty.

The car has to be manifesting symptoms that trigger the warranty.

All I can say is with the old pre DFI engine and its IMS setup it was never "fixed" in that the IMS B can't fail. The bearing or shaft or whatever may have been made more robust but it is the same basic design and implementation and there will always be some risk. It is my belief the risk is very very low and I put my money where my mouth was that in early 2009 I found a new new 08 Cayman S and bought it.

Even though I lost this Cayman S shortly after I bought it I tried to replace it with a similar example only going to a used Turbo when the stock of acceptable new Cayman S's was found to be lacking a car I could live with. (The remaining examples were loaded with pricey and to me worthless options.)

I believe if you find a car in good conidtion and buy it at the right price and if you can get a car with a CPO warranty you'll be fine. The guidelines are to buy the newest best example you can find and afford and there's no improving on those guidelines. 'course it seems obvious but what is not obvious is what you have to do, the work you have to do to find such an example. They do not just grow on trees.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Isn't it up to 5 years and 100k from date of original sale? So that you might only get 1 year if the car was 4 years old ... or less if ...

Mike:
If the used car is still under the factory warranty, the CPO covers it for 6 years or 100k miles.
If it is out of warranty, the CPO covers it 2 years from date of purchase or 100K miles.

The 987 I recently traded is on the market with a CPO warranty after having been out of the factory warranty for nearly 3 years.

Quote
MikenOH
Mike:
If the used car is still under the factory warranty, the CPO covers it for 6 years or 100k miles.
If it is out of warranty, the CPO covers it 2 years from date of purchase or 100K miles.

The 987 I recently traded is on the market with a CPO warranty after having been out of the factory warranty for nearly 3 years.

In the case of my 996 the car was over 6 years old and the CPO warranty was put into effect a few days (week or so) after I bought the car and it ran for 2 years/100K miles expiring on time sometime late in June of 2011. I had bought the car, drove the car off the dealer's lot, on the 19th of June 2009.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

My limited info so far is as follows:

1 - LN and Jake Raby are "associated" but not the same company
2 - Raby's engine replacement for mine is virtually the same price as a Porsche new one - I would buy his before a Porsche new
3 - 911 swap difficulty depends on the year 911 engine. The easiest is the 2000 and 2001 engine are "easily" done with the same harness/DME and no re-flashing, although there is some work flipping fuel rails, shimming the mounts, and some other "easy" things. Easy is of course dependent on the skills of the mechanic but I would never attempt a swap of any year but 2000 and 2001.

Replacement 3.2 with upgrades:
[www.flat6innovations.com]
Replacement 3.2 bumped to 3.6/300hp for an extra $1,000
[www.flat6innovations.com]

I just sent Raby an email asking about warranty, who can install, issues with older chassis etc. They do say this "Each FSI Engine includes free installation and a one year unlimited mileage conditional warranty", so I asked them about a local installer.... I will post their response.

At this moment, I still don't know what to do. But thinking as of now:

1 - No way am I buying a Porsche new engine
2 - Leaning against a 3.4 swap - while I corresponded with some that "know" and they say the 2000 - 2001 is "easy", it still gives me worries in that data still seems incomplete to me
3 - If I had to pull the trigger at this moment, I would do a rebuild to keep the costs down or maybe tweaking a used one ala Pedro's suggestion (waiting on some availability/pricing from my indy)
4 - I suspect..... only suspect ...... that a Raby 3.6/300hp replacement would cost me about 10K more than a rebuild and I get 300hp.... Hmmmmmm........

Pedro: What do you think about a Raby 3.6.300hp vs rebuild - nothing like your hands-on opinions? Others?
Marc: Thanx for you thoughtful replies.... I have an email to my indy about that "core" rejection issue

Thanx
Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2012 11:01AM by Bruce In Philly (195K+). (view changes)

See if you can get an accurate quote from your Indy on a "refresh" of a used engine vs. a rebuild of same. IIRC, you have a 2000S so there should be a number of donor engines around to pick from.

If you're not planning on tracking you car, Pedros comments make a lot of sense; you keep the price down, do the preemptive fix on known problem areas and get the car back pretty quickly. The rebuilds would take more time and given the expense of going through the whole motor, the prices can get expensive depending on how far you want to go. My Indy quoted $10-15K to go through a 987.1 2.7L motor and rebuild with premium components--(forged rods/pistons).

Before I forget, determine if you can do the oil pump hex drive without opening up the motor; the part is cheap by itself.

The lowest price Raby engine is $17k. If you get free installation you still have to get the car to his shop in GA to take advantage and then if there was a problem you would probably have to travel back to get it fixed. That's probably not worth it.

The link you posted above about the guess to rebuild an engine is "complete rebuild (top and bottom), Stronger components for reliability and raceworthiness".

So realistically you're probably talking about spending $8-10k more for the Raby option. I don't consider that close at all.

Sorry about your car Bruce. There's a lot of good advice given above, it seems, but is a replacement engine of some sort a project that you're willing to endure? I can see it if you are interested in doing some/most of the work yourself and want to learn along the way, but if you're paying someone else to do the work, the financial component seems to get out of whack for me. Let alone the time without the car, the effort to monitor/manage progress, the worry about things being done right. My car is approaching 15 years in my garage and it too is in wonderful shape, so I understand being attached to your car, but if my engine blew today, I'd sell anything I could and buy another...something newer, maybe a different color. There are SOOOO many excellent used Boxsters available...immediately available. Whatever you decide, I hope that it works well for you.

There may be something to that:
[cleveland.craigslist.org]

The attached Boxster S was priced under $11k,had 69K miles and from the pics looked good.

Comparing that to the used engine approach--on the web the typical price I've seen for a 2000-2001 3.2L runs $4-5K + shipping, "refresh" parts/labor and installation; sounds like a bill approaching $10K.

1. he had a very solid car that he put stuff into
2. the only problem was that the motor committed mass suicide
3. if he puts a solid motor in, with the most likely weak links upgraded/new...

He has a particularly good car, that should really last a long time.

A craigslist car is a pure gamble across the board. very unlikely to have the new parts and unknown upkeep.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I don't know how solid a Porsche Boxster is with nearly 200,000 miles on the suspension and other mechanical parts. I've seen the endless money pit that MarcW has with his 200K Boxster and how much money he has put into that car.
Major mechanical and electrical components wear out and do not last forever. The OP does not do the work himself so repairs can get expensive real fast on these cars.
It seems that putting a $15K plus motor and possibly more to upgrade other parts and systems while the motor is out of the car does not make a lot of financial sense. I would invest maybe $5K tops to get it back on the road as cheaply as possible and take my chances and hope for another 50K miles.
That would be basically putting in a salvage motor.
I can understand being emotionally attached to a car. That is fine if you have the money but sometimes you need to cut your losses and make a practical financial decision. I'm going through this now with a 270K Mercedes I've had for 28 years. The blower motor went out last night. It needs a windshield, motor mounts, transmission mounts, flex discs and the list keeps getting longer. I can do some but not all of the work. I am replacing this car with a pristine 300E I purchased with 100k miles for what it cost to rebuild a tranny or motor on the other one.
With the plethora of good cheap low mileage Boxsters available which is basically equivalent to the amount of money the OP wants to put into a motor alone I would buy another car and further offset the price by selling the other car or make a track car out of it and transfer some of the new parts from the old car to the new if it makes sense. Doing this would give the OP a new car with lower miles and newer components and for less money that putting in a new motor.

Quote
patrick
I don't know how solid a Porsche Boxster is with nearly 200,000 miles on the suspension and other mechanical parts. I've seen the endless money pit that MarcW has with his 200K Boxster and how much money he has put into that car.
Major mechanical and electrical components wear out and do not last forever. The OP does not do the work himself so repairs can get expensive real fast on these cars.
It seems that putting a $15K plus motor and possibly more to upgrade other parts and systems while the motor is out of the car does not make a lot of financial sense. I would invest maybe $5K tops to get it back on the road as cheaply as possible and take my chances and hope for another 50K miles.
That would be basically putting in a salvage motor.
I can understand being emotionally attached to a car. That is fine if you have the money but sometimes you need to cut your losses and make a practical financial decision. I'm going through this now with a 270K Mercedes I've had for 28 years. The blower motor went out last night. It needs a windshield, motor mounts, transmission mounts, flex discs and the list keeps getting longer. I can do some but not all of the work. I am replacing this car with a pristine 300E I purchased with 100k miles for what it cost to rebuild a tranny or motor on the other one.
With the plethora of good cheap low mileage Boxsters available which is basically equivalent to the amount of money the OP wants to put into a motor alone I would buy another car and further offset the price by selling the other car or make a track car out of it and transfer some of the new parts from the old car to the new if it makes sense. Doing this would give the OP a new car with lower miles and newer components and for less money that putting in a new motor.

money pit is.

I feel the Boxster has *not* been a money pit at all.

Sure some things have worn out but gee the car has covered 260K miles.And the things that have worn out have been realively inexpensive to put right. The biggest expense was the passenger side VarioCam solenoid and actuator. I thought some about spending the $3K to put this right but after pricing other used Boxsters, looked into buying other used cars, even maybe buying a new MINI S coupe (thank goodness I didn't the long term reports find the car has problems with reduced driver visibility) I decided that given the car's basic good condition and my knowledge of its condition that this $3K expense was cheaper by far than replacing the car. I would have had to spend maybe 10 times that $3K to buy a good car with a CPO warranty and then watch its value depreciate as I drove it.

My Boxster a money pit. No way!

Sincerely,

MarcW.

After listening to Marc detail his experience with the car over the past 7 years that I know of, money pit isn't the first word that comes to mind.

Marc--what were the top 3 repairs you've had to do to your car over the past 10 years?

Quote
MikenOH
After listening to Marc detail his experience with the car over the past 7 years that I know of, money pit isn't the first word that comes to mind.

Marc--what were the top 3 repairs you've had to do to your car over the past 10 years?

at around $3K.

The second expensive was accident repair arising from hitting some road debris. With a 75 mile tow from middle of Nowhere KS, population 1 (me), 2 nights in a hotel, repairs to the car the total bill came to $2K.

The 3rd most expensive repair would have probably have to be the water pump though the coolant tank is close, but both were under $1K, with the fuel pump below those two. New rear window cost $600. Wheel bearing under $500. Various window/door lock hardware under (though in one case -- passenger door lock controller assembly -- just over) $500.

Brakes I do myself for around $250 parts per axle if both pads/rotors need doing.

Tires have been a big ongoing expense running IIRC $1K for a full set though generally a full set is needed only every 40K miles. The rears get replaced once inbetween at around 20K miles.

Overall I've been very pleased with the car. Servicing costs are a bit higher with this car than others I have owned but PCA membership helps with a discount of some amount at the dealers I use and with a good relationships with the various dealers I use (and even some I have used only once) I have received over time some discount in various services/repairs. (I have joked that sometimes I can get a better servicing deal, better prices by showing up unexpectedly at a dealer 2000 miles from home than I can at one 30 miles from home. The distant dealer I think suspects I'm a Porsche secret shopper and goes out of his way to please me and this includes a break on the cost of a service.)

Sincerely,

MarcW.

All things considered, that's not very much given your mileage. The consumables--tires, pads, fluid changes--are all a given.

By comparison, our 07 RAV4 had a transmission replaced (under warranty ) at 55K and a partial emission system replaced due to a defective muffler @ 60K (also covered under the emissions warranty).
The price tag on those items were $5K for the tranny--bad ring gear--and $1200 for a partial muffler system which had a Cat converter welded in the middle of it (great design). So, had this happened 6 months later than it did, I'd had to eat the entire repair cost apparently because Toyota's QC isn't what it used to be. BTW, these were unannounced TSB items that I only found out about via the RAV4 forum.

Those kinds of potential repair costs on a car with 60K+ miles on it make Marc's car look ultra reliable IMO.

is the one you have now. Comparing costs over time including interest (forgone or paid out versus received), depreciation and insurance, repair costs always seemed trivial to me.

I'm into this same trade-off thinking over a 60k 10 year old CRV I bought just so I could also have the Boxster. Do I run it forever or do I buy its $30k replacement (except what I really would buy is $40k). Money isn't making much in the bank, I could do either. But the one I have costs me almost nothing, depreciates in small amounts, is cheap to insure, is good enough and has no major problems. Oh and it probably only goes 4k miles a year and has new "best" tires on it and I don't hesitate to take it off road or full of trash to the dump. Now if I needed a new engine tomorrow in it, I'd probably trade but it wouldn't be a decision based on economics but "I want". Had it been the Boxster, I'd have seen Jake about one of his big blocks...and that wouldn't have been a decision driven by the economics either. Now why would I have needed the big block?

I'd add to Pedro's list of refresh items water pump and AOS.

I also dont recall marc spending all that much money. I understand the AVERAGE cost to keep a used car on the road - note this includes ford focuses (just to pick on one) is $1281/year. I spend less than that on my boxster.

As i pointed out, we need to keep the key goals and key facts ALL in our minds. re-arguing points is, well, pointless or maybe double pointed?. Some don't believe the IMS can be fixed with aftermarket. Others dont think motors can be had for less than new (a dealer around here recently had crate motors, no core, for $11k - new). whatever.

I see $3500+ install + $2-3k upgrades + solid car with many major fixes recently = good.

Any deviation in figures requires documentation :-)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

You can buy 2002-2003 Boxsters all day for $15-17k. Why in the world would you invest that much for a motor to put in a 2000 with 200k miles?

Quote
San Rensho
You can buy 2002-2003 Boxsters all day for $15-17k. Why in the world would you invest that much for a motor to put in a 2000 with 200k miles?

little if the body/interior is in good condition. I mean I won't buy a nice inside and outside looking car that has all its running gear shot of course.

I've always preferred -- this was gently pounded into my head by other more knowledgeable car guys early on -- a car with a sound body/interior and no serious accident damage or bad accident repair with questionable running gear vs. the other way around.

Besides those 2002-2003 Boxsters do not come without some risk of even right after buying one having the engine go boom!

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Concur with San Rensho. It seems kind of foolish to invest tens of thousands in any car with 200K miles when there are so many reasonably-priced alternatives around.

A few weeks ago my son was considering buying a 98 Boxster with 28K miles and the "asking" price was $13K. There is no doubt that the mileage was not tampered with, because the car was practically like new inside and out and drove like a charm. Essentially a new car for $13K. Must have been somebody's garage queen for years and years, but it was a used-car dealer and they had no service records. Because my son is poor as a church mouse, I steered him to a Miata instead -- but if I was in the market, I would have snatched up that Boxster and had an LN IMS put in it and it would have been a heckuva deal. And car + IMS would several thousands cheaper than putting a new engine in a car with 200K miles. Or skip the LN IMS altogether and if ever the engine did blow, the absolute most you could lose would be $13K.

Yes, I did not realize what is out there....... Hmmmmm......

Quote
Bruce In Philly (195K+)
Yes, I did not realize what is out there....... Hmmmmm......

I bought my 2000 2.7, 115k miles, for $7500 about a year and a half ago. Its definitely a buyers market, especially here in South Florida. Put a new IMSB in it and you are set.

find you a good car and do the IMSB.

I just checked the Autotrader market, and it's my impression that the prices on used 2009 to 20012 Boxsters have started to drop. This is the trend I expected to see. I'm particularly interested in those owned by private sellers who are the original owner. I thank this board for educating me on the IMSB issue.

I am now faced with this same consideration. My engine blew this past Friday, about 120 miles after my 10,810 mile trip! Depressing, but relieved it didn't happen while on the road.

-Eric

Agreed

BTW, what MY did the IMS problem go away (if it has)?

Sorry to hear about your engine. The IMS went away with the 2009 models.

The advantage is that the failure rate fell dramatically. The disadvantage is that they cannot be replaced (dont fit through the access hole).

In 2009 the new motor without an IMS was introduced. There's more to the story, the new motor also has improved oiling, staggered piston shape and myriad other changes. While only time will tell, it promises to be a vastly improved motor.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quite a kick reading my post from October 2012. The 9A1 engine introduced in 2009 corrected a bunch of issues, not just the IMS, which caused engine failure.