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Topic You're comments regarding the inadequacy of 15w-50 oil in the case of ball bearing lubrication... |
Any replaced IMS failures out there? Dunkirk - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 5:25:50 pm |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 5:49:09 pm |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? thom4782 - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 6:37:12 pm |
I completely agree with your leap of faith grant - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 7:06:50 pm |
Also plan to take that leap next winter Rob in CO - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 7:52:46 pm |
Well, i fully expect both of mine to last another decade.... grant - Friday, 31 May, 2013, at 9:05:54 pm |
Re: Well, i fully expect both of mine to last another decade.... Dave In MD - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 5:43:38 am |
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grant
One as a track car (driven some on the street)
the other as a street car (driven some on the track)
With 2 LNs, careful monitoring of oil, and loving care, i have faith.
Grant
For what was the installer blamed? grant - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 7:42:48 am |
Re: For what was the installer blamed? Dave In MD - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 8:43:27 am |
I guess what i'm trying to ascertain is... grant - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 3:00:09 pm |
Re: I guess what i'm trying to ascertain is... Dave In MD - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 4:13:04 pm |
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grant
whether it really was installation error. In the end, you don;t care, but it matters in a general sense.
if it is even a little out of alignment, it will fail, and fast (as will any wobbly bearing).
It is awfully tough to warrant a $15k motor grant - Sunday, 2 June, 2013, at 8:24:45 am |
Re: It is awfully tough to warrant a $15k motor Dave In MD - Sunday, 2 June, 2013, at 7:55:02 pm |
I may have mis-read your post. grant - Sunday, 2 June, 2013, at 8:12:37 pm |
When I sell you a $45k to $100k car mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Monday, 3 June, 2013, at 7:41:39 am |
I've never had trouble getting failure stats from LN mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 9:37:15 pm |
Recommendation by Reiser in Panorama Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 9:37:23 am |
Re: Recommendation by Reiser in Panorama thom4782 - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 10:01:36 am |
Yes, he is referring to the factory system. *NM* Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 10:17:27 am |
You are correct that he refers to the original. Unfortunately, read my other post, grant - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 2:05:11 pm |
except, i believe he is wrong grant - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 2:03:17 pm |
Re: except, i believe he is wrong thom4782 - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 7:23:32 pm |
That is correct. And not what the "expert" wrote in Excellence. *NM* grant - Sunday, 2 June, 2013, at 10:59:27 am |
Re: Well, i fully expect both of mine to last another decade.... Rob in CO - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 11:03:39 am |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? Dunkirk - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 10:33:20 am |
I agree.... Rob in CO - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 10:56:46 am |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? thom4782 - Saturday, 1 June, 2013, at 11:00:24 am |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? MauriceonLongIsland - Monday, 3 June, 2013, at 1:09:17 pm |
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Dunkirk
... Now here's the question:
"There's a new IMS replacement out there. It is better. Costs twice as much as the old one. We should have that new gizmo in our shop in a few days."
In other words, I'd be the first guy from their shop to try out the new IMS gizmo. They've done a ton of the "old" ones.
I talked to my regular Porsche service guys back in Seattle (Chris' Porsche - love these guys) and they said: Don't be the first.
I asked the chaps here if they had ever heard of an IMS failure occurring on a replaced IMS using the LM gear. No, was their response.
Anyone have any advice either way? I'm ready to tell them to go ahead with both the clutch and the old-style IMS replacement (LM). Any particular reason I should trust a new version of the IMS versus the old? (I believe the new is from these guys: [www.flat6innovations.com] )
TIA,
Dunkirk.
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Monday, 3 June, 2013, at 5:10:55 pm |
Re: Any replaced IMS failures out there? SteveJ (2010 987 base, manual trans) - Monday, 3 June, 2013, at 8:15:56 pm |
Not a band-aid Boxsterra - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 2:18:35 am |
Re: Not a band-aid SteveJ (2010 987 base, manual trans) - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 10:42:33 am |
Except the bearing that supports the other side of the IMS shaft mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Wednesday, 5 June, 2013, at 8:50:50 am |
"just filtered" is completely irrelevant Boxsterra - Sunday, 9 June, 2013, at 4:05:02 pm |
Re: Differentiators between the TechnoFix DOF and "The Solution" Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 10 June, 2013, at 12:08:57 pm |
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mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Differentiators between the method shown at BRBS (as I read its developer's webpage) and "The Solution" offered by Flat6/LN (as I read its developer's webpage) are to me:
1. The oil is or is not just filtered before it gets to the bearing
2. The type of bearing, ball versus flat
3. The pressure available at the source of the oil pickup
4. The stability available to the IMS shaft and thus the sprocket and chain should the bearing fail
This seems to be a direct copy of something that Feelyx did mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 1:52:13 pm |
Could you share the details, if they exist, of ANY independent, long term, reliability testing, Mike *NM* Gary in SoFL - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 5:14:03 pm |
Re: Could you share the details, if they exist, of ANY independent, long term, reliability testing, Mike mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 4:25:15 pm |
So, that's a NO...analysis, reputation and trust; not suspect reports from those with ties/interests *NM* Gary in SoFL - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 5:55:09 pm |
My basis mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 9:32:50 pm |
Thanks for clarifying that we're dealing with opinions, Mike *NM* Gary in SoFL - Friday, 14 June, 2013, at 12:32:54 am |
If we use the original bearing that was designed for heavier grease lubrication... newt - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 7:45:24 pm |
Probably not. There's a reason grease was used in the bearing application. *NM* MarcW - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 10:22:20 am |
Yes! Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 10:49:18 am |
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Ed B
Hi all,
For those of you that haven't seen my earlier posts on this subject: I'm a retired ball and roller bearing design engineer, having spent 35 years with a major US manufacturer.
We all seem to agree that inadequate or inappropriate lubrication leads to failure of the IMS bearing. A ball or roller bearing of proper design with good lubrication will last a long time in this application.
I performed many failed IMS bearing analyses for LN engineering. All failures started with wear of some component; balls, ball separator or ball races. Spalling and metal fatigue followed by loss of structural integrity.
Comments:
The bearing design is not the best for this application. Grease lubrication is not adequate. The bearing operates near it's maximum temperature capability.
Solutions:
Better bearing design. The LN Engineering bearing offers components less prone to wear. A custom designed bearing ($$$$) is the best solution. Remove the seals and lubricate with oil.
Simplified Bearing Engineering:
A lubricant needs to have a thick enough film to separate the metal parts. Think of the metal surface as fine.sand paper. If the surfacer touch, very high stresses and heat occur, followed by wear, etc. My research indicates that 0-40 does not have a thick enough film thickness in this application. 15-50 is marginal. Ball bearing stress can approach 350000 PSI.
Given this, what can we do. A better bearing with improved surface finish, optimized geometry, better cleaner materials. (Not too practical unless you know some one in the aircraft industry that uses tis size bearing.)
Increase bearing speed so the balls will ride up on the oil film. (think aquaplaning). Increase oil flow to the bearing. Too much oil is bad, too, creating extra heat (keep the revs up).
Hope tho helps a little in selecting an IMS solution.
Ed B
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Ed B
Bearing life is predicted on a statistical basis. Standard is "L10 life" in which a failure rate of 10% of the bearings in a group is acceptable. For more reliability, bearings can be designed for L5 or L1 life.
The trade offs are bearing size and cost.
Many factors affect bearing life. Geometry, surface finishes, materials, hardness, operating temperatures/environment, lubrication, separator design, internal clearance, mounting fits, tolerances, etc. Some bearings in a lot may have the best combination of these factors, some will not, but all should be within the allowable specifications. Some will fail earlier than others. Some may never fail.
As for Porsche lubricating the bearing and installing the seals, that is very unlikely. Injecting the correct amount of grease and installing the seals requires special equipment. A bearing manufacturer will have this equipment. Porsche may have specified the grease, but the bearing manufacturer will have the expertise in specifying the best lubricant for the application.
The bearing(s) used on the IMS are basic "off the shelf" catalog bearings. They may have a few special features such as lube, internal clearance and seal material. But they will be made on on an automated machines in large quantities and inspected on a statistical plan. Some out of tolerance parts will be shipped to the purchaser. It's unlikely that Porsche does any receiving inspection on the bearings.
The type of bearing design(s) used on IMS are most commonly used in lawn mowers, washing machines, exercise equipment and similar items, not $15000 engines. Automotive applications normally don't require bearings better than class 1. The IMS may be an exception.
(When i get to replacing my IMS bearing it will be with an LN or better bearing and have pressure fed oil lubrication.)
Ed B
Keep the faith
You're comments regarding the inadequacy of 15w-50 oil in the case of ball bearing lubrication... MarcW - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 2:55:06 pm |
Quote
Ed B
Hi all,
For those of you that haven't seen my earlier posts on this subject: I'm a retired ball and roller bearing design engineer, having spent 35 years with a major US manufacturer.
We all seem to agree that inadequate or inappropriate lubrication leads to failure of the IMS bearing. A ball or roller bearing of proper design with good lubrication will last a long time in this application.
I performed many failed IMS bearing analyses for LN engineering. All failures started with wear of some component; balls, ball separator or ball races. Spalling and metal fatigue followed by loss of structural integrity.
Comments:
The bearing design is not the best for this application. Grease lubrication is not adequate. The bearing operates near it's maximum temperature capability.
Solutions:
Better bearing design. The LN Engineering bearing offers components less prone to wear. A custom designed bearing ($$$$) is the best solution. Remove the seals and lubricate with oil.
Simplified Bearing Engineering:
A lubricant needs to have a thick enough film to separate the metal parts. Think of the metal surface as fine.sand paper. If the surfacer touch, very high stresses and heat occur, followed by wear, etc. My research indicates that 0-40 does not have a thick enough film thickness in this application. 15-50 is marginal. Ball bearing stress can approach 350000 PSI.
Given this, what can we do. A better bearing with improved surface finish, optimized geometry, better cleaner materials. (Not too practical unless you know some one in the aircraft industry that uses tis size bearing.)
Increase bearing speed so the balls will ride up on the oil film. (think aquaplaning). Increase oil flow to the bearing. Too much oil is bad, too, creating extra heat (keep the revs up).
Hope tho helps a little in selecting an IMS solution.
Ed B
Re: You're comments regarding the inadequacy of 15w-50 oil in the case of ball bearing lubrication... Ed B - Friday, 14 June, 2013, at 1:28:12 pm |
We are going to have to agree to disagree... MarcW - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 2:47:05 pm |
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Pedro (Weston, FL)
Grease is an oil to which a thickener has been added to prevent oil migration from the lubrication site.
It is used in situations where frequent replenishment of the lubricant is undesirable or impossible.
But frequent replenishment of the lubricant is the best treatment.
The synthetic motor oil used in the engine has more than adequate film strength, a wide temperature range and is oxidation resistant.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
No, you need to understand what grease is. When it is actualyl lubricating, it IS an oil, grant - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 2:48:38 pm |
Then by your reasoning when oil isn't lubricating it is a grease. Sorry. Grease is grease... MarcW - Friday, 14 June, 2013, at 9:48:25 am |
Grease is emulsified (or carrier-saturated) oil, not a thicker oil. grant - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 2:47:27 pm |
Pedro, more information please when you can Bobtesa - Monday, 3 June, 2013, at 9:06:16 pm |
Re: Pedro, more information please when you can MauriceonLongIsland - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 12:05:38 am |
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Bobtesa
This must be the information that was to come about Pedro's solution. If I read it correctly, it offers a means to add lubrication for the 987 IMS (that is not replaceable w/o MAJOR engine work). What is involved in doing this? Time, cost, required expertise at an indie shop?
Pedro, I assume that you will post this on your garage site.
Thanks,
Bob
Pedro's solution made sense to me... Mark from SC - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 8:20:53 am |
We will have all the information available ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 10:01:46 am |
I never really bought into the bearing being the problem either, at least directly... MarcW - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 6:08:11 pm |
What About 2006-2008? paulwdenton - Friday, 7 June, 2013, at 1:45:07 pm |
Some have, some will, some won't mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Friday, 7 June, 2013, at 2:24:06 pm |
Questions for Pedro About TechnoFixDOF paulwdenton - Wednesday, 14 August, 2013, at 9:30:13 am |
pedro just answered this in another, more recent, thread. *NM* grant - Wednesday, 14 August, 2013, at 10:46:00 am |
Re: Questions for Pedro About TechnoFixDOF Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Wednesday, 14 August, 2013, at 11:46:26 am |
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paulwdenton
1) I understand that the TechnoFixDOF pumps oil into the IMS bearing. As I understand it, you are taking off the outer seal and pumping the oil in. That part makes sense. But the oil has to go somewhere if it's going to circulate. Maybe I am dense, but if the bearing is still sealed on the inner side, how can the oil circulate? Doesn't the oil have to go both in AND out of the bearing in order to pass through the filter? If there is no way of opening up the inner seal, wouldn't the oil just stagnate and eventually lead to the same failure that plagues the OEM bearing? Or, does the pressure of the oil feed pop off the seal on the other side of the bearing and allow circulation? Or, do you actually have some other solution to allow full circulation that I'm just not seeing?
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paulwdenton
2) About how many hours of labor should one expect the installation to require?
Re: Pedro's solution made sense to me... thom4782 - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 12:55:13 pm |
There have been several people who mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 4:53:05 pm |
Re: There have been several people who MikenOH - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 6:41:30 pm |
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mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
have done a variation on the lubricated bearing approach. But the testing of multiple bearings in real world driving over multiple years and many tens of thousands of miles to be enough to answer the question of how this approach increases reliability and by how much probably will never be done. Recall LN has asked people to replace theirs after 40k and return the bearings to them for analysis and I doubt they have gotten enough to form a valid statistical sample despite already being out there in the real world for 3-4 years. So why should we expect the latest and just released to be able to provide valid statistics?
You have a bearing that has been run for 70k miles and you pull off the seal and pressure lube the bearing. How do you know you aren't just blowing oil at an already worn bearing? I can see doing this on a new bearing but a used one?
I don't have the answers folks but I an still the skeptic on items installed on a few cars for a few miles. All I think you can do is listen to the logic behind the approach and see if it rings true and if the provider has a track record of providing things that work.
We will never have all the facts. We can never know. So now its educated guess-work grant - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 7:04:06 pm |
Re: There have been several people who MauriceonLongIsland - Tuesday, 4 June, 2013, at 11:19:04 pm |
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MikenOH
...
Good point.
I had the same thought about adding this new oil line to lube the existing bearing; wouldn't you need to reasonably sure of the condition of this bearing before making that decision to leave it in the car with the new lube system? Can this evaluation be done with the bearing still in the car?
ditto +... Bobtesa - Wednesday, 5 June, 2013, at 8:25:00 am |
Re: ditto +... SteveJ (2010 987 base, manual trans) - Wednesday, 5 June, 2013, at 11:57:10 am |