Re: Yes!

So here's the situation - Boxster S, '01, 70K miles, not the original owner

- Drove from LA to Syracuse, NY
- 9 miles from my final destination I got off the NY Thruway and as I accelerated out of the toll both the clutch pedal "stuck on the floor".
- Coasted to a stop, big puddle of fluid under the car. Had it towed to a local high-end shop that advertised in the NY PCA.
- Problem was the coupling in the back of the car failed. They replaced it. $185 and I'm out - in theory.
- I test drive the car but the clutch doesn't return correctly. It seems to come up 1/2-3/4 of the way and "pops" the rest of the way up. They said to me prior to pickup that they thought there was a mechanical issue with the clutch.
- Their suggestion: Replace the clutch. Oh, and while replacing the clutch do the IMS bearing.

With all the reading I've done over the last few years replacing the IMS seemed right if I was doing the clutch and it just seemed right that I should do the clutch. Now here's the question:

"There's a new IMS replacement out there. It is better. Costs twice as much as the old one. We should have that new gizmo in our shop in a few days."

In other words, I'd be the first guy from their shop to try out the new IMS gizmo. They've done a ton of the "old" ones.

I talked to my regular Porsche service guys back in Seattle (Chris' Porsche - love these guys) and they said: Don't be the first.

I asked the chaps here if they had ever heard of an IMS failure occurring on a replaced IMS using the LM gear. No, was their response.

Anyone have any advice either way? I'm ready to tell them to go ahead with both the clutch and the old-style IMS replacement (LM). Any particular reason I should trust a new version of the IMS versus the old? (I believe the new is from these guys: [www.flat6innovations.com] )

TIA,

Dunkirk.

LN is the brand you are thinking of.

Pedro is saying he has something to talk about shortly on the IMS subject.

Is the new more expensive thing they are talking about "The Solution"? If so even LN and Flat 6 recommend doing the more expensive "The Solution" only if you muchly love the car, can afford the expense and intend it keep it forever. If not even the makers of "The Solution" recommend using the LN bearing as probably the right cost effective solution for the next 40-60k miles.

Always remember that, when you prevent one problem, there are still other potential problems that could take the engine out. How many IMSs have these guys say they have done.?

The IMS Solution uses an oil fed plain bearing whereas the LN Retrofit uses a splash oil lubricated ceramic ball bearing design. Beside price and method of lubrication, the advantage of the IMS solution is that it will not allow the IMS to wobble should the bearing wear of fail. This prevents the timing chains from coming off their sprockets with the resulting engine self destruction. The IMS Solution requires more installation steps, but it isn't more difficult to install.

My leap of faith is that the LN Retrofit will last far longer than the 40K to 60K recommended by the manufacturers.

The normal LN is overbuilt, and is designed to catch splash lubrication.

Most IMSs don't fail anyway (although far too many do)

And often other things fail before the IMS, and certainly before the 2nd, especially when the 2nd is an LN.

remember the picture of me i posted holding my "wasted" IMS ------ completely intact?
(Chain guide / shoe wore; chain jumped time)

The solution, IMNSHO, is a solution in search of a problem (that has not already been solved for half the price).

But then, this is the 3rd time i've written this!

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Don't expect it to last forever. Bought it 10 years ago this weekend. Figure I am already in the bonus round but will take as many years as I can get.

One as a track car (driven some on the street)
the other as a street car (driven some on the track)

With 2 LNs, careful monitoring of oil, and loving care, i have faith.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
One as a track car (driven some on the street)
the other as a street car (driven some on the track)

With 2 LNs, careful monitoring of oil, and loving care, i have faith.

Grant

You shouldn't have faith. I had the LN installed in my 03 2.7 at 61k miles. It failed at 66k, or 5k miles later. LN replaced the bearing and IM Shaft and refused to help with the engine rebuild. The indie who installed it was one of their recommended installers on their website so they blamed him. Nice. Oh, the original bearing that came out of the engine looked like new. Now a $10k dollar paper weight.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

What was the failure method?

I'm surprised to hear this, since many have asked repeatedly for any info on LN failures, even the OP in this thread, and it has never come up.

So, ow that we have one failure, i'd like to know all the details - infant mortality is always real, and human error even real-er...

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

The bearing failed with no warning under mild acceleration. There were no other issues with the engine. It was disassembled and sent to LN for analysis. They replied that there was no indication of manufacturing defect, but replaced the bearing and shaft with one of their multi-row shafts. Further communication with LN resulted in simply blaming the installer for installing it incorrectly, who by the way has done many others with no failures.

This is a long, drawn out story. I'm not attempting to keep it secret and perhaps I'll write something up in a longer version, but I have just walked away from the event disgusted with both LN and the indie that did the work. The car sat in a warehouse from August last year to March this year. LN simply refused to help with the rebuild expense, the indie refused the blame and I paid for the rebuild just in the last few weeks to get it running so I can sell it.

I really don't want to come off too negatively. As I've posted here and other places, the bearing is a problem and the "solution" remains an unknown as to if they actually fix the problem. It's obvious that Porsche is keeping information on failures to themselves. Apparently, so is LN. This thread is interesting in that it is based on a belief that the LN "solution" is perfect. It's not. Who knows if, on a broader basis, it's good insurance or not. I don't really know, but from a personal sample size of one, I'd say it wasn't.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

whether it really was installation error. In the end, you don;t care, but it matters in a general sense.

The bearing is, IMO, very well designed.

Installation inst all that difficult, but it does require that it be pressed on perfectly square, and everything cinched down correctly. if it is even a little out of alignment, it will fail, and fast (as will any wobbly bearing). It seems to me that there might be clues from what was found, but apparently no one really did an autopsy on the system, only on the bearing. Of course, the one doing the system level autopsy is the one who did the operation, which creates a bit of a conflict of interest....

But the unscientific sample still seems to say the LN is pretty good. Yours is the only one i've heard of failing. Of course, yesterday i had not heard of yours. I think its important that this info be shared - not with vengeance, but for knowledge...

My take is that Charles is a scrupulously honest individual.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
whether it really was installation error. In the end, you don;t care, but it matters in a general sense.

if it is even a little out of alignment, it will fail, and fast (as will any wobbly bearing).

That was my thought too. If the install was bad, it should have failed before 5,000 miles. It also made no noise before failure which leads me to think it was simply a manufacturing defect - perhaps on a single ball. What really bothered me was that if the failure rate is really that low, why would they not want to work with the installer and their customer? Doesn't say too much about their business ethics. Or, worse, their failure rate is so bad, they can't afford to help and stay solvent. My solution is a simple one. I will never do business with LN or the indie again and while I'm not running around posting it on all the forums, I'm not keeping it a secret. Certainly, my friends in the local PCA region know the circumstance.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

when you make maybe $200 on a bearing, and someone else installs it.

I wouldn't.

They would have to charge $1500 for the part, whcih would end the business. As a consumer i know this and would rather have a bearing that i can afford, than one i cannot.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

If Mike's obtained statistics are legitimate, then only a few could be covered without breaking the bank. I clearly understand the warranty can only cover the bearing. I clearly understand that Porsche only covers the engine through it's warranty period. In someways it is definitely about "you pay your money, you take your chances". Except, I know two people who were out of warranty when their IMS bearing failed and Porsche paid most of the cost of the new engine as a good faith gesture to a good customer. As I said in my first posts, I'm not here to point fingers. I never asked them to cover it, I just asked if they would participate with their customer and installer on making it right. They declined to do so. They also just blamed the installer. Pretty NASTY in my mind. Not a business relationship I would ever enter into again or advise anyone else to enter into.

Again, one of the reasons I've been hesitant in posting anything about this is I knew there would be a lot of "rationalization" replies. All of my previous posts here have been supportive of them. Only you can decide what you're comfortable with. To quote George Bush: fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

But, the number of failures is not zero.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

They did nto even refund your bearing price? I would, if them, do that for goodwill even if i knew your installer was likely at fault....

What i would not consider, is covering your motor, simply not feasible.

Anyway, i dont mean to be callous to your issue. Just pointing out that they have issues too....and also that depite your bad experience, most should consider the LN product if and when they are already doing a clutch

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

and when I know I have something to hide and when my name is liable to be splashed in the mainstream press or TV in an unfavorable light, I have the fiances and financial incentive to spend to persuade a customer to buy another car from me. Not to mention that it doesn't cost Porsche anywhere near what they charge you and me for that replacement engine.

When I sell a $600 product to someone who is liable to never buy another, I have neither the financial incentive nor the finances nor corporate infrastructure to make me want/able to pay for something that wasn't mine in the first place. And rebuild or replace, I'd have no control of the costs. None of the 3 suppliers of the 6 IMS bearing kits does anything differently from the others.

People were told up front there was no warranty beyond the part. Jake and Charles developed that policy even for expensive engines for which they had almost total control of the content based on bad experiences because they didn't want to spend their lives in court, it just might get in the way of developing new products. And they have been very upfront in letting us know just what our odds were so we could make the choice understanding the risks.

Imagine you go into Auto Zone and buy a windshield wiper. You come back the next day and tell them the new wiper scratched your windshield. Are they going to replace your windshield? How did they know about the prior condition of the windshield? There are people out to take advantage, and some who just want to find someone else to blame and pay.

I had a customer, one of my best, who purchased an annual maintenance plan from us for all the equipment he had bought from us. He also bought identical parts from others. Think we didn't get an occasional warranty claim on a box someone else had sold?

I've said before I thought Porsche was wrong for marketing reasons in letting the IMS story affect their used car prices and reputation and that it could cost them more in sales than it would in replacement costs.

And I've published some of them before on online forums. Compared to the OEM part's stats, the LN ones were miniscule at the time.

But the OEM stats (from the settlement) were also from more engines over longer periods than the LNs could have been driven.

My last email from Charles was in September of last year. And since I asked him for stats I could publish, I'll quote directly from that email: "We’ve had a handful of failures over the last two years. Ever since we switched to steel cages, we hadn’t seen a single failure. There are maybe 8 total on the single rows, none on the dual rows, out of 7k+ bearings in service. That said, only maybe one or two we know definitely it was the bearing – defective cages (that’s why we switched to steel cages last year). In the other failures, there was so much damage throughout the engine, we don’t know what came first, or in some cases, if the procedure wasn’t carried out properly. Only one of the failures had the customer sent in the warranty form and original bearing, which in his case, it was failing and had already put tons of debris through the engine. "

I'd be interested in the date of your failure.

I think yours is the first failure after the initial few hundred mile break-in period I've seen reported online though we know there have been more from the LN stats. The initial period failures lend themselves more to the possibility of installation problems. Everyone can just have a bad day or be distracted at a critical time no matter if they have done the procedure before. Plus how can you be sure their experienced guy actually did the install? Maybe they had a junior fellow doing it that day. Not saying/knowing if it is the installer or the part or just statistical probability wasn't in your favor that day.

LN has been very explicit from the beginning that it wasn't liable for an engine since there were too many of other folks parts and labor involved. Know any other part vendor who takes that responsibility? IMS vendor? I know where there are 4 sources for IMSs and none do to my knowledge. Every part that rotates against another will fail eventually. Some sooner, some later.

Dave, I feel your pain. It's like when a love lets you down.

Reiser in May 2013 Panorama Tech Q&A recommends:

"I see the IMS retrofit kit not as cheap insurance, but as crucial insurance." "I believe every one of them will fail."

He goes on to say something technical about the IMS bearing I have never heard or read before:

"The bearing itself has dust seals. They were designed to be run in the air. The engine design, however, has this bearing submerged in motor oil at 220 [degrees] F. The bearing was not designed for this.... Oil will eventually work its way past this internal seal where it washes out the lifetime grease packed in the bearing. That starts the countdown to failure."

Heavy stuff for the club magazine that is partially funded by the mother ship.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I have not read the Panorama article.

My understanding is that the LN Retrofit is NOT a sealed bearing packed in grease. It is unsealed and lubricated by 'splash' oil from the engine. So the failure mechanism described in the quote must be referring to the OEM bearingm, which is sealed, and does fail in the described way. And, if I am correct so far, the the quote 'I believe every one of them will fail' must be saying all OEM bearings will fail eventually.

his description of the failure mechanism is wrong, and any statement about 100% failure is mathematically silly. The first motor that dies from another cause proves him wrong. Oh wait, i own one.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Correct me if i'm wrong someone, but the bearing is not submerged. That is, in fact, the problem.

Splash oil and heat breaks down the seal. But the bearing sits above the oil surface level, and therefore, does nto get regular lubrication. If it did, it would not fail. In fact, one of the improvements in the LN is to catch splash oil, and int he soluion it is to put a stream of oil on the bearing. Neither would be needed if it is in fact submerged.

So i question his knowledge at a very basic level.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

My understanding is this. When the OEM bearing seal degrades, splash oil mixes with the OEM lubricant. When this happens, the lubricating properties of both fluids (that is the mixture) degrade so the bearing isn't sufficiently lubricated. And then the bearing fails. The LN bearing isn't sealed or internally lubricated. It's open design allows splash oil to lubricate the bearing properly.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

That royally sucks. Sorry for your headaches but glad you are back on the road in time for Summer fun.

So slightly mixed feedback.

Base question: The clutch is getting done. That's a must. Do I get the LN kit done at the same time?

I'll buy a new Boxster before I do an engine rebuild - if a failure were to happen either with or without the LN. I only paid $20K for my Boxster. It was my first Porsche experience and now that I've got a few years under my belt I know all the things I'm missing from a newer model versus my '01.

At 70K it seems like "insurance" as a few of you put it since my clutch is getting done anyway. I would absolutely *not* do the LN just to do the LN. Like I said: Engine failure = new Boxster. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to get another 30K-50K out of the car...

That the LN replacement is not worth it alone as a purely preventative measure but if you are already paying the labor to get the tranny out for the clutch (and/or RMS), it makes total sense. I don't expect the original bearing to look bad when it comes out but do not mind paying one big bill to have all of the items done at once.

If mine were to blow up tomorrow, I would have to decide between a newer used Boxster (2010 or later) or a used 911 engine. I would probably opt for the latter as I am not really enthusiastic about tracking a much newer car but hope not to have to make that choice.

Good luck.

You characterized it correctly - the LN is insurance. The odds are in your favor that the OEM bearing will last another 30K to 50K especially with frequent oil changes. On the other hand, the LN bearing adds about $850 to your tab (labor included). So the trade off is...LN insuarance v. dollar difference between resale and salvage value. If you plan to keep the car for a long time, then buying the LN insurance makes sense to me.

Quote
Dunkirk
... Now here's the question:

"There's a new IMS replacement out there. It is better. Costs twice as much as the old one. We should have that new gizmo in our shop in a few days."

In other words, I'd be the first guy from their shop to try out the new IMS gizmo. They've done a ton of the "old" ones.

I talked to my regular Porsche service guys back in Seattle (Chris' Porsche - love these guys) and they said: Don't be the first.

I asked the chaps here if they had ever heard of an IMS failure occurring on a replaced IMS using the LM gear. No, was their response.

Anyone have any advice either way? I'm ready to tell them to go ahead with both the clutch and the old-style IMS replacement (LM). Any particular reason I should trust a new version of the IMS versus the old? (I believe the new is from these guys: [www.flat6innovations.com] )

TIA,

Dunkirk.

Dunkirk:

There is another "solution", a demonstration of which I have personally witnessed two days ago at BRBS. The demonstration was done on an actual cutaway of a Cayman engine that was capable of "running" on a battery which powered a windshield wiper motor to turn the crankshaft. There was one piston left inside the engine with the cranskshaft so that one could observe its operation. For IMS purposes, everything else was visible and operating....the timing chains, the IMS tube, the paddles, the cutaway of the oil pan and pick-up tube, the IMS flange and even a view of the IMS bearing (which was visible through a slit behind the flange). The demonstration was conducted by Pedro, who is partnering with TuneRS Motorsports in Florida.

The solution consisted of a pressure-fed oil line that ran from one of the already available (but plugged-up on factory engines) oil ports and a custom IMS flange which incorporated a fitting to squirt oil directly on the bearing.

This has already been discussed on this board a few months ago, but I wanted to mention it to give you why I think this is something you should consider and look into for yourself.

Its simplicity in design is what makes it a winner, IMO, and it addresses what everyone has agreed is the root of the problem: inadequate lubrication.

1. There are no additional parts which might have unintended, uncalculated or unforeseen consequences: the modified flange is a patented replica of the factory flange with the addition of an oil feed. Keep in mind that the IMS flange is stationary and fixed in place by the three small bolts.

2. You have the option of leaving your existing IMS bearing in place if it's in good shape and only remove the seal which faces the transmission side. This is especially beneficial for those with M97 motors where the IMS bearing cannot be replaced without an engine teardown.

3. In the unlikely event that the oil line somehow gets pinched, you are back to where you were in the first place (i.e., the IMS bearing will function the way the factory designed it until you can correct the pinched line). This is in marked contrast to another "Solution" which relies on a film of oil to prevent the new type of bearing from seizing almost immediately with oil starvation.

According to the developers, the oil pressure drop from using the factory-plugged oil port is negligible.

Again, IMO, since the acknowledged problem is lack of lubrication, this addresses that problem without introducing any other unknowns. It's certainly something worth looking into for anyone concerned about potential IMS failure.

Regards, Maurice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2013 02:40PM by Boxsterra. (view changes)

So you are saying you could now choose from:
Original
Original plus pressure lube
Pelican
Pelican plus pressure lube
LN ceramic
LN ceramic plus pressure lube
Casper
Casper plus pressure lube
The Solution which replaces roller bearing, provides pressure lube which is just filtered


And then there is the detector.

Too many choices.

Standard questions are: amount of testing, source of parts, quality of instructions, cost.

More info at http://blog.tunersmall.com/direct-oil-injection-for-ims-bearings/ which states that the outer seal must be removed or a bearing without such a seal used so the oil can get to the bearing. Only testing cited on the blog was a '97 Boxster in the 48 hour race. I've been scheptical of every product on the same inadequate real world testing grounds.

Interested in Pedro's take. Thanks for sharing Maurice.

Well, this is the next, and probably the best, Band-Aid solution. At this point, one should ask oneself, if they have an IMS Boxster or 911, whether it is time to cut losses and sell and get the best 2009 or later Porsche. I've been lurking here for years before actually owning a Boxster, and I know this is the place to get the best and latest true information on Boxster ownership. I am thinking that it is only a matter of time before the value of IMS Porsches takes a substantial drop. What might change things, is if VW group management decides to come in and take charge of the situation.

The bearing is necessary and bearings are inherently very reliable. The only problem with the system is a lack of adequate lubrication to the bearing, a problem which this solves. As Pedro pointed out, on the other side of the IMS is an identical bearing which has never been known to fail because it is adequately lubricated.

You are correct. Pedro's solution may be the best out there. I need to define my terms. By "Band-Aid" I mean any modification not approved by Porsche for installation by Porsche dealers. In other words, many knowledgeable Porsche owners at this point are faced with a decision to have a modification done by an independent which will not increase the book value of their car. Today many Porsche owners, and members of the general public certainly, are unaware of the IMS issue. I believe Pedro is correct when he says that the IMS issue has decreased the value of these cars on the used car market. I just remember what happened to the value of Audi sedans when the "unintended acceleration" stink was raised by TV reporting. I'm no better than anyone else at predicting the future, but I do see increased public awareness of IMS problems as a real possibility.

is not the same ball bearing as is on the sprocket side but rather a flat bearing. And the forces at play on the sprocket end of the IMS are different from the other end.

I'm sure you have seen pictures of oil filters showing small flecks of debris from non-IMS problems in the folds of the filter. Now imagine picking up that not-just filtered oil with its debris and shooting it into a ball bearing. Even with splash lubrication, there are reports of OEM and LN bearings picking up debris and then wearing out because of the uneven forces.

Differentiators between the method shown at BRBS (as I read its developer's webpage) and "The Solution" offered by Flat6/LN (as I read its developer's webpage) are to me:
1. The oil is or is not just filtered before it gets to the bearing
2. The type of bearing, ball versus flat
3. The pressure available at the source of the oil pickup
4. The stability available to the IMS shaft and thus the sprocket and chain should the bearing fail

What is the probability? Shoot, I don't know and doubt any do. But we do know they happen.

I'll be interested to hear more facts or to see any corrections to what I've posted as I've been mentally composing a comparison between the two methods in my head before committing it to blog..

Even after a long oil change interval with an engine shedding metal the total amount of particulate matter put in the oil and picked up by the filter throughout the entire period of thousands of miles is very small. That and the oil line is bathing the IMS bearing in oil.

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Differentiators between the method shown at BRBS (as I read its developer's webpage) and "The Solution" offered by Flat6/LN (as I read its developer's webpage) are to me:
1. The oil is or is not just filtered before it gets to the bearing
2. The type of bearing, ball versus flat
3. The pressure available at the source of the oil pickup
4. The stability available to the IMS shaft and thus the sprocket and chain should the bearing fail

Let me put out some info regarding your observations.
1.- The oil in the engine is constantly being filtered and recycled and any particles are captured and remain on the filter's surface until replaced. It isn't like behind the filter there's debris and none in front. Also the oil filter doesn't get rid of 100 of the particles, jut the larger ones. Using the spin-on adapter requires that you use a much smaller oil filter (for proper ground clearance) and eventually, if neglected can cause the oil to bypass the filter. The smaller spin on filter also has a less restrictive filter mesh which allows larger particles to go through vs the paper filter. The small spin on filter is recommended to be replaced very regularly with intervals as short as every 1000 miles. The standards-size OEM paper filter every 5,000 - 10,000 miles.
2.- A flat bearing is the simplest (and first) type of bearing developed and works well as long as it's properly lubricated because it actually runs on a film of oil, nothing more. The roller bearing was a modern development which reduces friction and requires less lubrication and is used on just about every racecar.
3.- The source of the DOF's oil pickup is from one of the OEM oil ports on the engine where the oil comes from the main oil pump and has nothing to do with pressure in the heads as has been commented elsewhere.
If there is a discernible drop in pressure for whatever reason, the engine also has a pressure compensation system to regulate that pressure. We found just under 0.5 psi drop of pressure due to the oil injection line. The pressure variations in the crank are way more than that during normal operation. The car generally idles at 25 psi and operates at 60-80 psi of oil pressure. It's over 100 psi when cold.
4.- If a ball bearing fails the most likely outcome is catastrophic engine failure as we know, but ...

... what do you think would happen to a flat (journal) bearing if it's run dry of oil?
Using a flat bearing DICTATES that the oil feed to it should NEVER fail, otherwise ... KABOOM!
The oil feed could fail if debris clogs the line or if something physical kinks the line, such as road debris or if the line breaks for whatever reason.
If that oil feed is compromised, the flat (journal) bearing fails. It will spin-weld itself to the intermediate shaft. The ball bearing goes back to OEM until you repair the issue.
The ball bearing design reduces the amount of oil required to provide adequate lubrication vs a journal bearing, and the ball bearing is more tolerant of marginal lube conditions.

Again, the main point with the design of the DOF system has been that THE BEARING IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
The problem has been the lack of proper lubrication to the bearing and that's what the DOF system addresses.
The DOF system can be installed on every type of M96/M97 engine. The flat bearing only on 2000-2005 engines.

I hope I've clarified those points.
I'll be happy to answer any questions if/when they arise.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

And then that thread on another forum became abruptly abandoned probably a year ago.

(I'm told that this was an approach tried by Flat6 in 2007 but they ran into problems when their testing in long term use showed an increase in problems in several other areas. And ever since they have been testing various approaches. Which gives years and multiple cars as test mules with the expertise to tear the engines down and see if any secondary problems were showing up.)

I'd be asking the number of cars and length of the testing. Same question I've asked everyone who offered an IMS fix. I'd ask how many installs had been under test for long enough to prove long term reliability. If any of the long term engines had been torn down and evaluations made of the wear in the heads and block.

So by all means, let us know how the DOF was developed and what testing was done and what it showed.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

You have a choice.

No one is going to buy a dozen Boxsters and run them for a couple of years under variable conditions so asking for independent testing is a useless distraction.

You can choose an LN bearing that is known to have 8000+ installs. Are they independent tests? No. But lots of real world drivers give us more information than we'd have from a few test cases.

You can choose "The Solution" which has had a dozen or more samples running around in the real world for around a year and one or two for 3 years. Independent testing? No. But those real car owners with the installs are now free to report any problems.

Or the DOF approach. The DOF web site speaks only of a single race car running over a weekend. Is that how you use your car? Is that enough testing for you? Enough real world hot and cold and stop and go and all the possible variations we put our cars through?

So is it fair to ask just how many copies of the DOF have been installed, for how long and under what conditions have they run? What bearing they used along with the DOF lubrication?

I've asked the same question of all the IMSB suppliers because I just don't trust small samples under controlled and artificial conditions. (I first had product release responsibility in 1967. I've made the right call and the wrong call.).

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

I become interested based on my analysis of the logic presented behind something that makes it seem like a better approach. I become interested even more when I see some evidence of others having success, in quantity and over time.

I become informed based on almost daily reading of 8 Boxster forums on 3 continents for the past 6 or 7 years. If it is working, people either say so or are silent. When it doesn't work, that is when you see repeated complaints and "it happened to me too" responses. That is pretty independent because it is a wide sample and is hard to fake...likely the most independent we'll get.

Also I've been talking with people who have lots and lots of experience ... hundreds of P-cars for years. Some of those conversations have gone on for years. I've also exchanged emails and some phone calls and learned things from almost every person who offered a bearing replacement....some for years. Most of those conversations began with me asking about their testing. Some have extended for years and dozens of exchanges.

I've never installed an IMS and never will. Have no economic or personal relationship with anyone having anything to gain.

So that is the basis for my having opinions. Just opinions, not ones you have to agree with. But opinions that are as informed as I can make them. Based on the best evidence and logic I can find. Not marketing or personality. And subject to change as more evidence becomes available.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

will 40 wt motor oil adequately lubricate it?

Grease is an oil to which a thickener has been added to prevent oil migration from the lubrication site.
It is used in situations where frequent replenishment of the lubricant is undesirable or impossible.
But frequent replenishment of the lubricant is the best treatment.
The synthetic motor oil used in the engine has more than adequate film strength, a wide temperature range and is oxidation resistant.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Hi all,
For those of you that haven't seen my earlier posts on this subject: I'm a retired ball and roller bearing design engineer, having spent 35 years with a major US manufacturer.

We all seem to agree that inadequate or inappropriate lubrication leads to failure of the IMS bearing. A ball or roller bearing of proper design with good lubrication will last a long time in this application.
I performed many failed IMS bearing analyses for LN engineering. All failures started with wear of some component; balls, ball separator or ball races. Spalling and metal fatigue followed by loss of structural integrity.

Comments:
The bearing design is not the best for this application. Grease lubrication is not adequate. The bearing operates near it's maximum temperature capability.
Solutions:
Better bearing design. The LN Engineering bearing offers components less prone to wear. A custom designed bearing ($$$$) is the best solution. Remove the seals and lubricate with oil.

Simplified Bearing Engineering:
A lubricant needs to have a thick enough film to separate the metal parts. Think of the metal surface as fine.sand paper. If the surfacer touch, very high stresses and heat occur, followed by wear, etc. My research indicates that 0-40 does not have a thick enough film thickness in this application. 15-50 is marginal. Ball bearing stress can approach 350000 PSI.
Given this, what can we do. A better bearing with improved surface finish, optimized geometry, better cleaner materials. (Not too practical unless you know some one in the aircraft industry that uses tis size bearing.)
Increase bearing speed so the balls will ride up on the oil film. (think aquaplaning). Increase oil flow to the bearing. Too much oil is bad, too, creating extra heat (keep the revs up).

Hope tho helps a little in selecting an IMS solution.

Ed B

Quote
Ed B
Hi all,
For those of you that haven't seen my earlier posts on this subject: I'm a retired ball and roller bearing design engineer, having spent 35 years with a major US manufacturer.

We all seem to agree that inadequate or inappropriate lubrication leads to failure of the IMS bearing. A ball or roller bearing of proper design with good lubrication will last a long time in this application.
I performed many failed IMS bearing analyses for LN engineering. All failures started with wear of some component; balls, ball separator or ball races. Spalling and metal fatigue followed by loss of structural integrity.

Comments:
The bearing design is not the best for this application. Grease lubrication is not adequate. The bearing operates near it's maximum temperature capability.
Solutions:
Better bearing design. The LN Engineering bearing offers components less prone to wear. A custom designed bearing ($$$$) is the best solution. Remove the seals and lubricate with oil.

Simplified Bearing Engineering:
A lubricant needs to have a thick enough film to separate the metal parts. Think of the metal surface as fine.sand paper. If the surfacer touch, very high stresses and heat occur, followed by wear, etc. My research indicates that 0-40 does not have a thick enough film thickness in this application. 15-50 is marginal. Ball bearing stress can approach 350000 PSI.
Given this, what can we do. A better bearing with improved surface finish, optimized geometry, better cleaner materials. (Not too practical unless you know some one in the aircraft industry that uses tis size bearing.)
Increase bearing speed so the balls will ride up on the oil film. (think aquaplaning). Increase oil flow to the bearing. Too much oil is bad, too, creating extra heat (keep the revs up).

Hope tho helps a little in selecting an IMS solution.

Ed B

Ed:
Marc's earlier comments on questioning whether it is the bearing itself directly seems to make sense to me because we have the same bearing that can go 100-200K miles (some on track cars) while others fail being driven moderately before 50K. Seems to me if this bearing was uniformly unfit for the intended purpose, they would all fail within a fairly narrow window--no?

I'm sure there are variables in the production of these bearings, but didn't Porsche add the grease and seals at their shop, adding the uncertainty of how good that job was or how critical it was to the life of the bearing?

Thoughts?

Bearing life is predicted on a statistical basis. Standard is "L10 life" in which a failure rate of 10% of the bearings in a group is acceptable. For more reliability, bearings can be designed for L5 or L1 life.
The trade offs are bearing size and cost.
Many factors affect bearing life. Geometry, surface finishes, materials, hardness, operating temperatures/environment, lubrication, separator design, internal clearance, mounting fits, tolerances, etc. Some bearings in a lot may have the best combination of these factors, some will not, but all should be within the allowable specifications. Some will fail earlier than others. Some may never fail.

As for Porsche lubricating the bearing and installing the seals, that is very unlikely. Injecting the correct amount of grease and installing the seals requires special equipment. A bearing manufacturer will have this equipment. Porsche may have specified the grease, but the bearing manufacturer will have the expertise in specifying the best lubricant for the application.

The bearing(s) used on the IMS are basic "off the shelf" catalog bearings. They may have a few special features such as lube, internal clearance and seal material. But they will be made on on an automated machines in large quantities and inspected on a statistical plan. Some out of tolerance parts will be shipped to the purchaser. It's unlikely that Porsche does any receiving inspection on the bearings.
The type of bearing design(s) used on IMS are most commonly used in lawn mowers, washing machines, exercise equipment and similar items, not $15000 engines. Automotive applications normally don't require bearings better than class 1. The IMS may be an exception.

(When i get to replacing my IMS bearing it will be with an LN or better bearing and have pressure fed oil lubrication.)

Ed B

Keep the faith

Quote
Ed B
Bearing life is predicted on a statistical basis. Standard is "L10 life" in which a failure rate of 10% of the bearings in a group is acceptable. For more reliability, bearings can be designed for L5 or L1 life.
The trade offs are bearing size and cost.
Many factors affect bearing life. Geometry, surface finishes, materials, hardness, operating temperatures/environment, lubrication, separator design, internal clearance, mounting fits, tolerances, etc. Some bearings in a lot may have the best combination of these factors, some will not, but all should be within the allowable specifications. Some will fail earlier than others. Some may never fail.

As for Porsche lubricating the bearing and installing the seals, that is very unlikely. Injecting the correct amount of grease and installing the seals requires special equipment. A bearing manufacturer will have this equipment. Porsche may have specified the grease, but the bearing manufacturer will have the expertise in specifying the best lubricant for the application.

The bearing(s) used on the IMS are basic "off the shelf" catalog bearings. They may have a few special features such as lube, internal clearance and seal material. But they will be made on on an automated machines in large quantities and inspected on a statistical plan. Some out of tolerance parts will be shipped to the purchaser. It's unlikely that Porsche does any receiving inspection on the bearings.
The type of bearing design(s) used on IMS are most commonly used in lawn mowers, washing machines, exercise equipment and similar items, not $15000 engines. Automotive applications normally don't require bearings better than class 1. The IMS may be an exception.

(When i get to replacing my IMS bearing it will be with an LN or better bearing and have pressure fed oil lubrication.)

Ed B

Keep the faith

Thanks for the reply, Ed.

So, if a 10% failure rate was expected for this bearing , then it sounds like the reports we hear of these failures--IIRC-- of something approaching 10% over the course of 10 years would be in line of what the bearing was designed for.

The next question is if you are a bearing manufacturer and customer like Porsche comes to you with a PO to a buy bearing like this one and use it in an application which may be very different than what the bearing was designed to operate in, what might the discussion be between the customer and the supplier? Something like we don't warranty this bearing for the this application but you are free to purchase it from us or does that discussion even take place with the supplier (customer goes to a catalog, finds an appropriately sized bearing and just place the order)?

Like all products, the bearing would be warranted to be free of defects and thats all. A manufacturer can't control how the bearing is used or it's environment. It can only make suggestions and recommendations. Everything usually goes to the lowest bidder.

Ed

Quote
Ed B
Hi all,
For those of you that haven't seen my earlier posts on this subject: I'm a retired ball and roller bearing design engineer, having spent 35 years with a major US manufacturer.

We all seem to agree that inadequate or inappropriate lubrication leads to failure of the IMS bearing. A ball or roller bearing of proper design with good lubrication will last a long time in this application.
I performed many failed IMS bearing analyses for LN engineering. All failures started with wear of some component; balls, ball separator or ball races. Spalling and metal fatigue followed by loss of structural integrity.

Comments:
The bearing design is not the best for this application. Grease lubrication is not adequate. The bearing operates near it's maximum temperature capability.
Solutions:
Better bearing design. The LN Engineering bearing offers components less prone to wear. A custom designed bearing ($$$$) is the best solution. Remove the seals and lubricate with oil.

Simplified Bearing Engineering:
A lubricant needs to have a thick enough film to separate the metal parts. Think of the metal surface as fine.sand paper. If the surfacer touch, very high stresses and heat occur, followed by wear, etc. My research indicates that 0-40 does not have a thick enough film thickness in this application. 15-50 is marginal. Ball bearing stress can approach 350000 PSI.
Given this, what can we do. A better bearing with improved surface finish, optimized geometry, better cleaner materials. (Not too practical unless you know some one in the aircraft industry that uses tis size bearing.)
Increase bearing speed so the balls will ride up on the oil film. (think aquaplaning). Increase oil flow to the bearing. Too much oil is bad, too, creating extra heat (keep the revs up).

Hope tho helps a little in selecting an IMS solution.

Ed B

calls into question any solution that relies upon oil as a lubricant, unless, and I may have missed this as I admit I have not been reading all the posts on this subject over the last oh, about it seems a bazillion years, the bearing is replaced by one in which the bearing maker and application engineer or team agree the bearing's application is well suited to be lubed by engine oil, the same oil that has to of course not put the rest of engine at risk. (Now I'm aware of the bearing solution offered by I guess Jake Raby/LN Engineering (I'm sorry I do not know/remember who directly markets this kit).

Beyond 15w-50 there is 10w-60 and that's that. To my mind it does not much good to prolong the bearing if the other plain bearings go away, if the VarioCam Plus hardware goes away because an oil was selected for the bearing in mind.

Improve the surface finish of the ball groves and 15-50 and maybe 0-40 wound be OK.

Ed B

Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
Grease is an oil to which a thickener has been added to prevent oil migration from the lubrication site.
It is used in situations where frequent replenishment of the lubricant is undesirable or impossible.
But frequent replenishment of the lubricant is the best treatment.
The synthetic motor oil used in the engine has more than adequate film strength, a wide temperature range and is oxidation resistant.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

To state that grease can be replaced by oil is imho wishful thinking.

Grease is more than thickened oil. In some cases it can have additives (one commonly used is... ZDDP) that help provide the protection to prevent metal to metal contact. But too much can not help and in fact can lead to the bearing deteriorating so to all you reading this thinking now's the time to load up on oil with huge amounts of ZDDP think again.

Therefore to just assume replacing grease with a supply of oil is the same thing as grease seems to me at least to be a bit of stretch.

Even Timken, well known bearing maker, advises:

...However, the original equipment manufacturer should always be consulted concerning any change from a lubricant that is specified by them....

Like I said.. agree to disagree.

.. and of far lower viscosity than the grease, whcih is emulsified.

The science is pretty cut and dry.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

and oil is oil. Grease when the bearing is working certainly warms up, gets hot and becomes more fluid, become more oil like in this respect, but it does not become an oil. And to count on oil working long term where grease was used before is counting on a lot.

In fact, grease,due to the carrier or emulsifier, (generally) has a lower % makeup of lubricating material. Its advantage is that it stays in place. except when its washed away :-)

One definition is:

Grease is a semisolid lubricant. It generally consists of a soap emulsified with mineral or vegetable oil.[1] The characteristic feature of greases is that they possess a high initial viscosity, which upon the application of shear, drops to give the effect of an oil-lubricated bearing of approximately the same viscosity as the base oil used in the grease. This change in viscosity is called thixotropy. Grease is sometimes used to describe lubricating materials that are simply soft solids or high viscosity liquids, but these materials do not exhibit the shear-thinning (thixotropic) properties characteristic of the classical grease. For example, petroleum jellies such as Vaseline are not generally classified as greases.

40wt oil will likely do a BETTER job of lubricating, but only if the feed is constant.

To Marc's point below, i dont think there is a good reason, or, if it were, it was made by the same engineers who specified a part intended for lower temperatures and dry environments inside a crankcase. So their reasons have no weight with me.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

This must be the information that was to come about Pedro's solution. If I read it correctly, it offers a means to add lubrication for the 987 IMS (that is not replaceable w/o MAJOR engine work). What is involved in doing this? Time, cost, required expertise at an indie shop?

Pedro, I assume that you will post this on your garage site.

Thanks,
Bob

Quote
Bobtesa
This must be the information that was to come about Pedro's solution. If I read it correctly, it offers a means to add lubrication for the 987 IMS (that is not replaceable w/o MAJOR engine work). What is involved in doing this? Time, cost, required expertise at an indie shop?

Pedro, I assume that you will post this on your garage site.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob:

This does offer a means to add lubrication for the M97 engine.

In simple terms, what is involved is as follows: Remove the transmission, remove the clutch pressure plate, the clutch disc and the flywheel (or the torque converter in a Tiptronic), remove the IMS flange, remove the outer seal on the existing bearing (i.e., the seal facing the transmission side), install the modified IMS flange with the oil feed line attached, remove the plug at the oil port on top of the engine and connect the other end of the oil feed line to the port. Reinstall the clutch and transmission.

There are a couple of other small steps (such as grinding away a small cutout for the oil feed tube to pass through the mating surface between the engine and transmission) but, if you are not replacing the IMS bearing with a new one (either OEM or LN Ceramic bearing or other) it is a lot less complicated because it does not involve locking down the cams, etc...

Pedro will explain in more detail.

Regards, Maurice.

I have to add, I was at BRBS, and the solution presented did make sense to me. If Lubrication is the issue, this should resolve it. It looked to be very thought out and well designed, and IMO, reasonably priced, compared to other solutions.

... by the official introduction which is 6/15/13.
At BRBS we wanted to give folks attending the opportunity to be the first to see it and order it if they so chose.
We did receive a good number of orders.
I will post the same powerPoint presentation I gave at BRBS on my website and a link from PedrosBoard soon so people can make their own informed decision.
Our goal has been to offer a smart, simple and effective fix to the IMS bearing issue which we believe is caused by lack of lubrication to the bearing.
We do not believe that the bearing is the problem.
We're so sure that this TechnoFix-DFO will work well that we wouldn't be surprised if in one or two years the investment in our Fix can return double or triple the investment when selling the car.
The only reason these cars are so cheap today is because of the fear if the IMS bearing issue.
Thanks to all of those that have supported our endeavor.
Thanks to all of those who have sent us messages and e-mails regarding the BRBS presentation.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

There are too many cars that are not showing the failure for it to be a bearing.

My research led me to believe bearing assembly problems, specifically too much grease that causes the seals to be compromised and then over time the grease leaves and the oiling the bearing gets where it is is not sufficient to keep the bearing alive.

Or the oiling is too much.

Regardless if I'm right it doesn't undo what has occurred from those bearings that failed. And for those owners that still have a healthy engine one can't just tell these owners hey you may be driving a car with a bearing that is either a hand grenade with a short fuse or a Methuselah. Well, one can but one doesn't get invited to many parties.

If lube or bearing seals is the issue, why aren't we also seeing IMS failures on the 2006+ models? I haven't heard of any. It's the same basic design but with beefed up parts, isn't it? Or did Porsche just use better bearing seals? So is my 2008 also a ticking time bomb but just on a longer fuse?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2013 01:46PM by paulwdenton. (view changes)

We haven't heard of many. LN hasn't sold but around a dozen. So you'd think that was good news.

But recall that we didn't hear of lots of failures till later in the M86s life and mostly from people who were facing the problem of paying because the car is no longer under warranty. It is the climbing the bell curve of failures versus time/miles and warranty expiration that triggers reports.

So interpreting the early lack of reports is tricky and I wouldn't pretend to know how much better the third design is when compared to the first two. All we can say perhaps is it seems better so far but if you want or need to repair it...your wallet will get much lighter.

I'm sorry, I am a natural worrier and I don't have a spare $20K laying around in case my 08 Cayman's engine decides to blow up, however unlikely that might be. Seeing several recent reports of engine failures on 987s, I am looking at some sort of solution that will provide some peace of mind. You can't replace the IMS on a 987 without taking the engine apart, so if I was going to do that, I might as well just give up and sell the car. But I have a really nice car with only 17K miles and has been babied and modded -- precisely the kind of car you most hate to give up on, and yet the kind that is probably the most at risk. However, I was reading Pedro's web site about the TechnoFixDOF and since it can be applied to the 987 and the logic seems sound, I'm really interested in going that route. But I have some questions.

1) I understand that the TechnoFixDOF pumps oil into the IMS bearing. As I understand it, you are taking off the outer seal and pumping the oil in. That part makes sense. But the oil has to go somewhere if it's going to circulate. Maybe I am dense, but if the bearing is still sealed on the inner side, how can the oil circulate? Doesn't the oil have to go both in AND out of the bearing in order to pass through the filter? If there is no way of opening up the inner seal, wouldn't the oil just stagnate and eventually lead to the same failure that plagues the OEM bearing? Or, does the pressure of the oil feed pop off the seal on the other side of the bearing and allow circulation? Or, do you actually have some other solution to allow full circulation that I'm just not seeing?

2) About how many hours of labor should one expect the installation to require?

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
paulwdenton
1) I understand that the TechnoFixDOF pumps oil into the IMS bearing. As I understand it, you are taking off the outer seal and pumping the oil in. That part makes sense. But the oil has to go somewhere if it's going to circulate. Maybe I am dense, but if the bearing is still sealed on the inner side, how can the oil circulate? Doesn't the oil have to go both in AND out of the bearing in order to pass through the filter? If there is no way of opening up the inner seal, wouldn't the oil just stagnate and eventually lead to the same failure that plagues the OEM bearing? Or, does the pressure of the oil feed pop off the seal on the other side of the bearing and allow circulation? Or, do you actually have some other solution to allow full circulation that I'm just not seeing?

For the DOF you install a new bearing without the outer seal or remove the outer seal on the existing bearing.
The DOF sends a stream of oil right onto the bearing's balls which are rotating, thus all of the balls get bathed in oil.
The inner seal is left in place so that you don't fill up the IMS with oil.
The oil just drips back into the oil pan together with oil from all over engine, to go back and do it again.

Here's a short video where you can see how the oil is streamed into the bearing and then it just drips down:
[www.youtube.com]

Quote
paulwdenton
2) About how many hours of labor should one expect the installation to require?

Installation without replacing the bearing ('06-'08 cars) is 10 hours.
With the replacement of the bearing add one more hour.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

My guess is that the direct oil feed bathes an unsealed IMS bearing in more oil than splash oil from the crankcase would. Am I correct and does the testing show that more oil fed to the bearing means less bearing wear?

have done a variation on the lubricated bearing approach. But the testing of multiple bearings in real world driving over multiple years and many tens of thousands of miles to be enough to answer the question of how this approach increases reliability and by how much probably will never be done. Recall LN has asked people to replace theirs after 40k and return the bearings to them for analysis and I doubt they have gotten enough to form a valid statistical sample despite already being out there in the real world for 3-4 years. So why should we expect the latest and just released to be able to provide valid statistics?

You have a bearing that has been run for 70k miles and you pull off the seal and pressure lube the bearing. How do you know you aren't just blowing oil at an already worn bearing? I can see doing this on a new bearing but a used one?

I don't have the answers folks but I an still the skeptic on items installed on a few cars for a few miles. All I think you can do is listen to the logic behind the approach and see if it rings true and if the provider has a track record of providing things that work.

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
have done a variation on the lubricated bearing approach. But the testing of multiple bearings in real world driving over multiple years and many tens of thousands of miles to be enough to answer the question of how this approach increases reliability and by how much probably will never be done. Recall LN has asked people to replace theirs after 40k and return the bearings to them for analysis and I doubt they have gotten enough to form a valid statistical sample despite already being out there in the real world for 3-4 years. So why should we expect the latest and just released to be able to provide valid statistics?

You have a bearing that has been run for 70k miles and you pull off the seal and pressure lube the bearing. How do you know you aren't just blowing oil at an already worn bearing? I can see doing this on a new bearing but a used one?

I don't have the answers folks but I an still the skeptic on items installed on a few cars for a few miles. All I think you can do is listen to the logic behind the approach and see if it rings true and if the provider has a track record of providing things that work.

Good point.
I had the same thought about adding this new oil line to lube the existing bearing; wouldn't you need to reasonably sure of the condition of this bearing before making that decision to leave it in the car with the new lube system? Can this evaluation be done with the bearing still in the car?

And educated guess work is where most true forward progress is made. Of course, it also where the follies are made.

Lubrication will slow deterioration. The less deterioration that has occurred, the better your odds.

It sounds like a good idea to me, but as mike says, some will already be past the point of prevention, although i believe even those that are destined to die, say, next year will if lubricated properly possible die in 2-3 years.

I think Mike is raising the right questions. I don't think we should take them as " and therefore this is not a good idea". We shoudl simply pass the unreasonable euphoria stage, cross the chasm, and proceed to reality which may be better than it was 3 days ago :-)

We;ll settle this after a cumulative 10 million miles or so.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
MikenOH
...
Good point.
I had the same thought about adding this new oil line to lube the existing bearing; wouldn't you need to reasonably sure of the condition of this bearing before making that decision to leave it in the car with the new lube system? Can this evaluation be done with the bearing still in the car?

With M97 engines, the only other option is an engine teardown. Whatever the condition of the bearing in those engines at the point that the oil line is installed can be maintained, the lubrication can only help to extend the life of those engines and, theoretically halt any further deterioration.

For engines where the bearing can be replaced (i.e. '97 to early '05), the bearing can be partially inspected visually for galling etc., once the outer seal is removed and the bearing can be manually inspected for anything less than a rock-solid, no-play feel. If in doubt, replacement is advisable since the additional labor and parts cost is not substantial at that point.

Regards, Maurice.

Maurice, I guess you have an '06, 7, or 8. Mine is 08 and my thoughts are similar, but it partially depends on the cost. With bearings that can not be easily replaced (06-08), it might make sense to do the lube modification early in the life of the car/bearing hopefully before there is any wear on the bearing parts. I want to learn what this mod costs. I don't go through clutches very fast (in fact never had to replace one even on cars with 120k), so it would not be done with a clutch job. I would have to pay for it as a stand alone job. Also, don't know what else is involved - removing the tranny?, taking out the engine?, then reassembling. Even in a good shop there is always the chance of things not being done right and introducing a problem that did NOT previously exist. With this in mind, given that the IMS for 06+ is redesigned, stronger, probably less prone to failure than earlier designs so could last pretty much for the life of the car, this mod is to me not a no brainer, but I will talk with my indie and give it some serious thought.

If there is a positive aspect to the IMS situation, it is that there are a lot more people that aren't afraid to dig into a Porsche engine than there were back in the days when all anybody talked about was the RMS. There is an independent shop in the Minneapolis area that is actively recruiting customers for IMS bearing replacement and advertising in the newsletter of the local Porsche club.