How many is enough? How long is enough?

I really look forward to seeing what condition my old one is in. 6 yrs. 38k miles. Lots of oil changes. about 17 DE days and 20 or so AutoXes.

We shall see. In any event, i'll feel better.

Grant

It is quite a job to do on spec...

Can you do this on anything other than Speculation? This is a serious question I have, not trying to be smart. Is it possible to do after the IMS fails??

... as mine was pulled just before it let go completely.
But even if it's done as a preventive measure it's probably not on speculation.
I say that because, IMNSHO, the IMS Bearing on a n M96 engine is like a man's prostate.
Give it enough time and it will develop cancer (and I say that for the retrofit as well).
I think it's a good investment for anyone wishing to keep their car for a while.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I know about) in which the failure was caught just in time -- the driver heard scary (enough) engine noises and shut the engine down in time -- and the engine was salvageable. New IMS, a chain guide, some other relatively small stuff but of course this to replace the IMS required the engine be removed from the car and the engine disassembled (the cases split and the crank and rods and pistons removed).

The time it takes for the failure to go from just this side of salvageable to too late is very brief.

Thus I think the decision to do the LN bearing upgrade is not an easy decision, not a black or white decision. Part of it to me is I'm not convinced the upgrade removes enough of the risk for the money it costs. (I'm not saying the upgrade is overpriced, just that it not as tested/tried as I would like.)

Anyhow, what tips the scales one way or the other for an individual ... who can say, 'cept maybe that individual.

For me even if my Boxster had fewer miles I'd probably (probably) not do it. One part of the decision I covered above. Another thing is if I believed I needed to take this step to ensure my Boxster engine's longevity I'd probably just get rid of the car and drive something else.

Now, if the IMS did fail I do not know what I'd do. Depends upon many things, some of which are variable. If they line up on one side of the scale I fix the car. If they line up on the other side I sell the car for salvage and move to another brand of car. Unless I'm faced with this decision -- and I hope I never am faced with it -- I can't say what I'd do.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Is 1750 installed enough? Is 2.5 years enough? Is 0 failures reported enough?

Lets say ~1/3 of those have been installed a year (and throw out all the others!). In 600 car years, how many failures would there have been without em? If Porsche's bearing failed at a rate as low as .5%/year that would be 3 failures. Is this difference between 0 and 3 significant enough?

I think it is a question each of us answers for ourselves. Your answer is right for you, I hope. And someone else may answer it a different way and still be right too.

Quote
MarcW
Now, if the IMS did fail I do not know what I'd do. Depends upon many things, some of which are variable. If they line up on one side of the scale I fix the car. If they line up on the other side I sell the car for salvage and move to another brand of car. Unless I'm faced with this decision -- and I hope I never am faced with it -- I can't say what I'd do.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

After seeing another poster on here recently buy a low-mileage '05S similar to mine ($60,600 MSRP) for only $26K+, paying for the upgrade or an engine replacement seems like throwing good money after bad in light of this head-spinning depreciation. I'm gonna roll the dice and if the car lasts, great. If it doesn't (and I don't get killed when the engine craps out), it will go to salvage and I will definitely switch to another brand. Why would I buy another car from a company that tries to sweep serious defects under the rug?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2011 10:28AM by longislander1. (view changes)

The head spinning depreciation makes the cars great deals, except that they might blow up. So fix the major failure point and enjoy a good deal on a heavily depreciated car.

Grant

Quote
grant
The head spinning depreciation makes the cars great deals, except that they might blow up. So fix the major failure point and enjoy a good deal on a heavily depreciated car.

Grant

+1; the message here is to buy used, due to the depreciation, especially on the 987. The fly in the ointment for the 987 is that the IMS can't be done like the 986 (2006+), adding lot s of $'s

So the best cost per permagrin with least angst is....the '00-04 986S because of least depreciation to go, easiest/cheapest IMSR, least problems with cylinder liners due to the 3.2...or is that negated by the....

Yup, the head-spinning depreciation can make these cars great deals . . . but not for stupid people like me, who bought one new.

But you got one new, spec'ed to your tastes, no worries about previous drivers or service, 4 year warranty, etc.

We all value different things in different amounts...

And for that i hope - we dont know yet - that my motor becomes highly reliable for 150k+ hard miles.

I will hopefully have pics to show of my old bearing.

I expect it will be in ok shape. But the failures are sufficiently random that i dont wish to play roulette.

If you do the job with the clutch out, the hours go down to 2-3 maybe.

Which is how i approached it.

Grant

With the OEM part. At 106k miles I was already in there so I checked the IMS bearing and it had zero play and no sign of any problems. Pedro's and Marc's lasted over 200k.

doesn't do the LN bearing upgrade an attendee -- I'd mention him by name but I met and talked to so many nice people I'm not sure I have the right name associated with the conversation -- told me Stead Porsche in Walnut Creek does the job.

The cost is $3K if done during a clutch job. This includes the clutch hardware/labor and new/upgraded RMS parts/labor and of course the LN bearing upgrade parts/labor.

A LN bearing upgrade becomes less iffy to me if the upgrade if a Porsche dealer service department performs the upgrade and of course the car was going in for a clutch.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

The local indy (a friend ) did one that was weeks from doing a Chernobyl impersonation . Remember that old commercial "you can pay me now or you can pay me later"

Is there a upgraded bearing replacement? Thanks, Bob.

... not on an '08.
As I've stated before, in my opinion all IMS bearings will fail, given enough time/mileage because of the M96 engine's design.
Having said that, Porsche already knew that there was an issue with the IMS and started trying to correct it.
2008 is one of the last model years with an IMS so it already has all of the factory upgrades possible.
Now, when the time comes to replace your clutch I'd seriously consider inspecting and or retrofitting a new bearing just to be on the safe side.
There aren't many 2008s that have reported IMS bearing failures, so just enjoy your car.
Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Or is it that the '08s are comparatively young and still under warranty? Which means that age related deterioration of a seal hasn't fully taken effect and, if it has, Porsche has taken care of the problems caused under warranty so people aren't as liable to have screamed. Why would Charles go to the expense of IMS replacement-shaft development if there hadn't been failures creating the potential for a market? This is a bigger issue due to the engine removal, split case, ship the shaft to LN, etc nature of any potential repair or preventative action, isn't it? A smaller market potential?

I recall the ~'02 Acura TL transmission premature wear out problem. Gained traction on the forums shortly after it was announced but, since it was handled under recall and an extended warranty offered, the subject quickly died. I think that is human nature. We are concerned when our interests are threatened and stew over them but, if handled right, they recede in our consciousness. Ignored, they fester.

Think how it could have been handled. Any time the clutch is replaced by a dealer, Porsche replaces the RMS and IMS. In those quantities, the higher quality parts costs to Porsche drop, the labor is largely paid for by the clutch replacing customer, dealer shops get more business and everyone goes away happy. And Porsche's bottom line isn't killed. Their reputation is enhanced, etc. It is OK to make the initial mistake, everyone does. But acknowledging it and handling it right gives you another opportunity to regain the customer for the future. And considering how expensive new or replacement customers are to acquire, that may be a great bargain.

... because it's under warranty and because the deterioration of the bearing happens with miles.
It will eventually fail, but why worry now?
I know I'll die sooner than later, but I'm not worrying about it now, and I'm not close to being "under warranty"
I don't recall of hearing about an IMS failure prior to 2004. I'm sure there were some, but we hadn't heard about them.
The common ones (even low-mileage) were Porous Blocks, Slipped Cylinder Sleeves, and D-Chunk Failures, but the IMS bearings started failing after most cars had accumulated mileage.
YMMV.
Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Pedro, I think your Boxster went well over 100k miles (maybe well more) without an IMS failure. And I can't quite recall, but Marc W may have a pretty large number on his as well, without failure. Yet, some are reported to have failed with relatively low miles,

Seems as though it's a roll of the dice. If my IMS lasts as many miles as Pedro's, it likely won't fail within the next 15 years, given that, on average, I'd less than 10k on it per year.

On a related point, I think the 2006+ engines involve much more work for an IMS replacement - the engine has to be removed and torn down - something about the size of the bearing, or the flange. If that's the case, those owners with the newest bearing might find a prophylactic switch to the LNS bearing to be far too expensive.

Agreed; a potentially bad PR situation can be turned around if handled properly.
I would also add to that solution an extended warranty--just covering an IMS failure--lasting say 8 years or 100K. If there isn't a widespread problem, it cost them peanuts compared to the good will created.
MB did this on sludge problems in their early 2000 -2002 era cars as did BMW with the E46 M3 bearing problems.
I think the stumbling block with Porsche is admitting there might be a problem..

car. I believe the 08 Caymans and Boxsters are probably going to be superb cars for a long time.

My advice is to drive the car regularly and change the oil/filter more often than the factory oil/filter schedule calls for.

I changed my Cayman's oil at 750 miles, again at just under 1400 miles and again at the end of 'break in' at 2K miles.

The engine only ran better and better as the miles increased. My luck was to lose the car in an accident and even though I tried I was not able to replace it with another comparable Cayman S.

They were 'giving away' those cars back in early 2009, but by the time the other driver's insurance company settled all the heavily discounted '08 Cayman S's were gone, save the most expensive optioned ones.

I'd buy another Cayman S today, a newer model, I think but just today I looked at a 2011 Cayman S with a sticker price north of $75K. Loaded with foo-foo options. They add cost; weight; unnecessary complexity. They subtract performance.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

There are those that think it matters, and those that think it does not. And nothing said here is going to alter the population of either camp................

“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein

those that understand binary and those that don't :-)

BTW - mine was ok. Heard this morning.