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| lazy man's oil question (for mature engines) Steve (Morro Bay) - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 11:16:55 am |
I'm going to change the oil on my 2003 boxster with 100k miles on it. I've always (for the about 50k miles that I've had the car for) used the uninspired oil choice of mobil 1 0w40. I know that others sometimes use something else for higher mileages, and thought I might give it a shot. I know there are numerous oil threads here and elsewhere, but thought I'd just ask: what is the equivalently uninspired choice of oil for engines with high mileage? That is, is there some other mobil 1 thing that I can use with just different numbers than 0w40 which would do the trick?
| Re: lazy man's oil question (for mature engines) Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 11:28:40 am |
Mobil1 makes several HIGH MILLEAGE formulations that have more ZDDP than the standard blend.
You can also opt to go a little heavier due to larger clearance between parts because of the 100K miles of wear.
I generally recommend M1 10W40 High Milleage to my customers with 986 cars.
[www.mobiloil.com]
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 02:34PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
You can also opt to go a little heavier due to larger clearance between parts because of the 100K miles of wear.
I generally recommend M1 10W40 High Milleage to my customers with 986 cars.
[www.mobiloil.com]
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 02:34PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| Re: lazy man's oil question (for mature engines) boxsterd - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 12:19:25 pm |
I've had this minor cam cover leak for years….I never notice any actual leakage. No drops of oil on the garage floor. No drop in oil level from the electronic dash gauge.
However I do occasionally notice a faint "burning" smell after driving.
Do you think the 10w-40 oil will help with that? Do you think I should get the leak fixed? Dealer quoted me $1500 to seal the cam covers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 12:19PM by boxsterd. (view changes)
However I do occasionally notice a faint "burning" smell after driving.
Do you think the 10w-40 oil will help with that? Do you think I should get the leak fixed? Dealer quoted me $1500 to seal the cam covers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 12:19PM by boxsterd. (view changes)
| Most small leaks... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 1:01:18 pm |
... don't cause major damage, except to your garage floor (if it gets there).
If it's just seeping, you can let it be.
The burning smell may be a droplet onto the headers.
Sometimes a higher viscosity oil will stop the leak, but not always.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 02:33PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
If it's just seeping, you can let it be.
The burning smell may be a droplet onto the headers.
Sometimes a higher viscosity oil will stop the leak, but not always.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 02:33PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| That's what i use but mostly because of its better temperature stability on track grant - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 4:26:44 pm |
| Mobil 1 0w-40 doesn't seem to disagree with my 02 Boxster's engine with 275K miles. High.... MarcW - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 5:09:15 pm |
| Well, i added tht 0w40 is likely fine for most apps, however, hooey is incorrect grant - Thursday, 5 December, 2013, at 7:25:26 pm |
They are slightly thicker, which will lead to slightly less leakage in a loosening motor (note a 100k mile well maintained motor may be tight), and they cna have higher levels of ZDDP than would pass emissions warranty. This is fine if you are not burning substantial oil.
Whether you see a benefit or not is up to you and your circumstances, But there are clear differences, and therefore its not really hooey.
As noted - for non-tracked cars, non-street raced, and not in places that hit 90-100 degrees, 0w40 is likely a fine choice, new or old.
Violate any or all and think again.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Whether you see a benefit or not is up to you and your circumstances, But there are clear differences, and therefore its not really hooey.
As noted - for non-tracked cars, non-street raced, and not in places that hit 90-100 degrees, 0w40 is likely a fine choice, new or old.
Violate any or all and think again.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Clear differences? Well, yes, given the 10w-40 oil has those VII's you so despise.. MarcW - Friday, 6 December, 2013, at 11:03:40 am |
VII's to increase the oil's low temp viscosity from its naturally low viscosity to something higher.
Interesting too that a high mileage oil doesn't have a larger high temperature viscosity number. One would think a high mileage engine would need this even more than it would need 10w at cold temperatures.
And you still believe high levels of ZDDP have some value. I note the OP's engine went 100K miles just fine with the IIRC 1100ppm zinc in Mobil 1 0w-40 oil and suddenly it needs more. Why? Is this zinc going to add back the (imagined) worn metal? If so it ain't going to happen with Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage oil for it has the same amount of phosphorous and zinc in it as 0w-40 oil.
Like I said hooey. With the pairing of 2 words the oil company has a car owner who's engine is running just fine on its current oil suddenly considering changing oil.
What a marketer's dream.
Interesting too that a high mileage oil doesn't have a larger high temperature viscosity number. One would think a high mileage engine would need this even more than it would need 10w at cold temperatures.
And you still believe high levels of ZDDP have some value. I note the OP's engine went 100K miles just fine with the IIRC 1100ppm zinc in Mobil 1 0w-40 oil and suddenly it needs more. Why? Is this zinc going to add back the (imagined) worn metal? If so it ain't going to happen with Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage oil for it has the same amount of phosphorous and zinc in it as 0w-40 oil.
Like I said hooey. With the pairing of 2 words the oil company has a car owner who's engine is running just fine on its current oil suddenly considering changing oil.
What a marketer's dream.
| Here's all the information on Hooey... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Friday, 6 December, 2013, at 11:38:08 am |
[www.mobiloil.com]
Happy Porsche'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Happy Porsche'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Clear differences? Well, yes, given the 10w-40 oil has those VII's you so despise.. grant - Friday, 6 December, 2013, at 12:20:56 pm |
No, it has less than 0w40 and shear down shows it. VIIs typically are a function of the ratio of the upper range viscosity to the lower, but really in kinematic viscosity (one can;t divide by zero).
That is in fact one of the real benefits of the 10w40 under circumstances that demand hgih viscosity.
Why do you think it has more?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
That is in fact one of the real benefits of the 10w40 under circumstances that demand hgih viscosity.
Why do you think it has more?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| We are talking about in this context POA oil, or polyalphaolefins oil. MarcW - Saturday, 7 December, 2013, at 12:03:34 pm |
POA strengths: High VI, high thermal oxidation stability, low volatility, good flow properties at low temperatures, non-toxic.
IOWs, POA oils have inherently good flow at low temps and offer good protection at high temperatures.
So, POA oil have all the characteristics one is seeking in an oil and it has this without the need of additives. Which is good because one of POA's weaknesses is limited additive solubility. (Which is why when I read about owners mixing oils it makes me cringe.)
When one seeks out an oil that has a higher W number he is seeking out an oil that has had its good flow properties at low temperatures modified with VII's. (And with VII's that break down at RPMs around 6K. What's the wording? "Sheer rates of 10^6-1 are known to cause substantial irreversible viscosity decreases in VI improved oils." From Synthetic Lubricants by Reigh C. Gunderson and Andrew W. Hart, who wrote the book on synthetic oils, literally and figuratively.)
What one is doing then is buying steak, grinding it into hamburger, then trying to restore its steak like attributes by adding steak sauce.
IOWs, POA oils have inherently good flow at low temps and offer good protection at high temperatures.
So, POA oil have all the characteristics one is seeking in an oil and it has this without the need of additives. Which is good because one of POA's weaknesses is limited additive solubility. (Which is why when I read about owners mixing oils it makes me cringe.)
When one seeks out an oil that has a higher W number he is seeking out an oil that has had its good flow properties at low temperatures modified with VII's. (And with VII's that break down at RPMs around 6K. What's the wording? "Sheer rates of 10^6-1 are known to cause substantial irreversible viscosity decreases in VI improved oils." From Synthetic Lubricants by Reigh C. Gunderson and Andrew W. Hart, who wrote the book on synthetic oils, literally and figuratively.)
What one is doing then is buying steak, grinding it into hamburger, then trying to restore its steak like attributes by adding steak sauce.
| You seem to be making a few assumptions that are not correct grant - Saturday, 7 December, 2013, at 12:52:41 pm |
1. you state: "So, POA oil have all the characteristics one is seeking in an oil and it has this without the need of additives."
not always true. Most 10w40 and 0w40 oils from the same brand and line have a similar base stock type. But - in general - 0w40 is too wide a range to achieve even with GIV stocks. By rather selecting 10w40, we select a narrower range, which reduces the need for viscosity enhancing additives. See more below. This is critical to understand. It is this range that is the problem - divide the cSt at 100 deg by cSt at 0 deg and minimize within your real needs.
Marc, you seem to be missing that I am talking straight from the formulation labs. Its a fact.
2. you state: "When one seeks out an oil that has a higher W number he is seeking out an oil that has had its good flow properties at low temperatures modified with VII's". No. VIIs are used to raise the hot viscosity number. In general you select a base stock that flows st the lower end. if the range is sufficiently narrow, no additive is required. If the range is too wide, VIIs are required to raise the upper (hot) cSt. You do understand what VIIs do, right? They are temperature dependent chains that unravel at higher temperatures such that they DO NOT AFFECT low temperature flow, but extend the hot cSt. The problem is that they break down (shear) and that means a) they no longer provide hgih cSt extension, AND they contribute to sludge.
repeat, no one wants to artificially raise the lower cSt number. VIIs are not suited to the task and, moreover, this would be a step backwards. The ideal oil is 0w1000000. Sadly it does not exist, and VII fueled efforts to achieve something similar are unstable. Look at the test results.
The problem with 0w40 ( and its only a problem under high rpm and temperature, and no, there is not one magic knee in the curve) is the wide viscosity range which cannot be achieved even with GIV bases. We KNOW 0w40 shears down. We KNOW 0w40 only marginally achieves ACEA A3/B4 HTHS. We have ample evidence that it is compromised by VIIs of some type.
And i can tell you that for other large formulators, this is a known challenge - no testing required.
It seems that you have the application of VIIs backwards. No one wants an oil to flow more poorly when cold. They only want to preserve that flow, while retaining film strength when HOT. This is only possible without additives to a point. And even if you DO achieve it without additives, you have the other 0w40 problem - very marginal test results when hot, even before shear occurs.
So now i [sorta] know why you made your statement. But i hope you see that the assumption was in fact backwards, at least w/r/t common additive properties and usage.
In fact, a more ideal oil would be say 15w40 (< 3:1), 10w30 (3:1) or, say, SAE30 (1:1) - but only if those ranges meet your needs. It would place significant demands on the user, which is why compromised multi-vis oils have been developed.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2013 12:56PM by grant. (view changes)
not always true. Most 10w40 and 0w40 oils from the same brand and line have a similar base stock type. But - in general - 0w40 is too wide a range to achieve even with GIV stocks. By rather selecting 10w40, we select a narrower range, which reduces the need for viscosity enhancing additives. See more below. This is critical to understand. It is this range that is the problem - divide the cSt at 100 deg by cSt at 0 deg and minimize within your real needs.
Marc, you seem to be missing that I am talking straight from the formulation labs. Its a fact.
2. you state: "When one seeks out an oil that has a higher W number he is seeking out an oil that has had its good flow properties at low temperatures modified with VII's". No. VIIs are used to raise the hot viscosity number. In general you select a base stock that flows st the lower end. if the range is sufficiently narrow, no additive is required. If the range is too wide, VIIs are required to raise the upper (hot) cSt. You do understand what VIIs do, right? They are temperature dependent chains that unravel at higher temperatures such that they DO NOT AFFECT low temperature flow, but extend the hot cSt. The problem is that they break down (shear) and that means a) they no longer provide hgih cSt extension, AND they contribute to sludge.
repeat, no one wants to artificially raise the lower cSt number. VIIs are not suited to the task and, moreover, this would be a step backwards. The ideal oil is 0w1000000. Sadly it does not exist, and VII fueled efforts to achieve something similar are unstable. Look at the test results.
The problem with 0w40 ( and its only a problem under high rpm and temperature, and no, there is not one magic knee in the curve) is the wide viscosity range which cannot be achieved even with GIV bases. We KNOW 0w40 shears down. We KNOW 0w40 only marginally achieves ACEA A3/B4 HTHS. We have ample evidence that it is compromised by VIIs of some type.
And i can tell you that for other large formulators, this is a known challenge - no testing required.
It seems that you have the application of VIIs backwards. No one wants an oil to flow more poorly when cold. They only want to preserve that flow, while retaining film strength when HOT. This is only possible without additives to a point. And even if you DO achieve it without additives, you have the other 0w40 problem - very marginal test results when hot, even before shear occurs.
So now i [sorta] know why you made your statement. But i hope you see that the assumption was in fact backwards, at least w/r/t common additive properties and usage.
In fact, a more ideal oil would be say 15w40 (< 3:1), 10w30 (3:1) or, say, SAE30 (1:1) - but only if those ranges meet your needs. It would place significant demands on the user, which is why compromised multi-vis oils have been developed.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2013 12:56PM by grant. (view changes)
| M1 HM 10w40 vs 0w40 grant - Friday, 6 December, 2013, at 12:24:16 pm |
HTHS shear - best measure of hgih temp stability: 4.1 vs 3.7 and 3.7 shaky
cSt at 100 deg C - hot viscosity: 14.7 vs 14.3
Flash point: 240 deg C vs 230 deg C
I've said this over and over, its as if you dont read my numbers and then think i dont have them.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
cSt at 100 deg C - hot viscosity: 14.7 vs 14.3
Flash point: 240 deg C vs 230 deg C
I've said this over and over, its as if you dont read my numbers and then think i dont have them.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| BTW, i agree the marketing NAME is hooey... grant - Friday, 6 December, 2013, at 12:28:46 pm |
the point is that its intended for off-warranty vehicles, but all that is too complicated to market.
As i've explained, and this is not just theory, many oils re compromised in order to deal with unreasonably wide applications, fuel economy, european pressure to extend oil drain intervals, and other pressures that we might not find optimal. Are they good enough if changed with some regularity? Read what i just wrote you. I was abundantly clear.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
As i've explained, and this is not just theory, many oils re compromised in order to deal with unreasonably wide applications, fuel economy, european pressure to extend oil drain intervals, and other pressures that we might not find optimal. Are they good enough if changed with some regularity? Read what i just wrote you. I was abundantly clear.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
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