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| 98 Boxster Power Windows HamB3 - 9 years ago |
Hi,
I need help! I recently purchased a 98 Boxster with 48,000 miles. The power windows do not work with the switches. The only movement is a few millimeters down when you open the door and back up when you close the door. They do not lower when the top is lowered and there is no movement with the switches. I have replaced relay 14/15 with new. I have checked the fuses. I have verified continuity of all applicable wires. I have 12 volts at the Black and Red and Gray wires. I have an excellent ground at the brown wires.
I suspect that the alarm module interface is the problem. I assume that the security system will prevent the windows from operating?
Question: Is there a way to bypass the alarm module interface with the window circuit? Is there a way to at least test this to make sure that is the problem?
I absolutely don't want to replace the alarm module with the horror stories I've read about the Dealer involvement with reprogramming etc.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you
I need help! I recently purchased a 98 Boxster with 48,000 miles. The power windows do not work with the switches. The only movement is a few millimeters down when you open the door and back up when you close the door. They do not lower when the top is lowered and there is no movement with the switches. I have replaced relay 14/15 with new. I have checked the fuses. I have verified continuity of all applicable wires. I have 12 volts at the Black and Red and Gray wires. I have an excellent ground at the brown wires.
I suspect that the alarm module interface is the problem. I assume that the security system will prevent the windows from operating?
Question: Is there a way to bypass the alarm module interface with the window circuit? Is there a way to at least test this to make sure that is the problem?
I absolutely don't want to replace the alarm module with the horror stories I've read about the Dealer involvement with reprogramming etc.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you
| Do the windows drop when you pull on a door handle, either the inside handle or the outside... MarcW - 9 years ago |
handle? If you do not pull the handle hard enough to unlatch the door latch and instead release the handle does the window raise again?
If the windows do not drop when either handle is pulled and then do not rise again if you do not open the door and instead release the handle or if any of this behavior is inconsistent this can be a problem with the door lock assembly.
If when you open the door if the window goes back up or fails to go up when you close the door this can be a problem with the door latch assembly.
However if both door windows behave the same this suggests a common failure mode and it is a bit much to expect both door lock assemblies to fail at the same time.
The usual -- and appropriate -- advice is to check the security module for any signs of moisture in the area. Check the door bottoms for dampness. If a door membrane fails this can let water collect in the door and this can cause all sorts of electrical gremlins at first confined to the door/window but later the gremlins can appear at seemingly unrelated places.
I don't think it will help but you can reset the window limits.
Lower a window using the lower button. Press and hold until the window is all the way down. Release the button. Then press and hold the raise button until the window is all the way up. Continue to hold the button for at least 5 seconds. (I believe I can hear a faint "click" from the door at around 5 seconds after the window is up.)
Release the button. Done. (Well, done after you repeat the above with the other window.)
When my car's passenger window started acting up failing to drop when I opened the door, or worse dropping then going back up after the door was opened, when the door lock LED on the dash would light for no apparent reason, and the doors would lock, or when locking the car the horn would sound like something was ajar -- but nothing ever was ajar -- the tech connected the Porsche diagnostic computer and read the codes and pin-pointed the door lock assembly.
My point is do not dismiss getting someone involved who has the right diagnostics computer and knows how to use it. These electrical issues even without water or rodents or what hav you -- just wear as was the case with my car -- can be a real pain to troubleshoot.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2014 05:58PM by MarcW. (view changes)
If the windows do not drop when either handle is pulled and then do not rise again if you do not open the door and instead release the handle or if any of this behavior is inconsistent this can be a problem with the door lock assembly.
If when you open the door if the window goes back up or fails to go up when you close the door this can be a problem with the door latch assembly.
However if both door windows behave the same this suggests a common failure mode and it is a bit much to expect both door lock assemblies to fail at the same time.
The usual -- and appropriate -- advice is to check the security module for any signs of moisture in the area. Check the door bottoms for dampness. If a door membrane fails this can let water collect in the door and this can cause all sorts of electrical gremlins at first confined to the door/window but later the gremlins can appear at seemingly unrelated places.
I don't think it will help but you can reset the window limits.
Lower a window using the lower button. Press and hold until the window is all the way down. Release the button. Then press and hold the raise button until the window is all the way up. Continue to hold the button for at least 5 seconds. (I believe I can hear a faint "click" from the door at around 5 seconds after the window is up.)
Release the button. Done. (Well, done after you repeat the above with the other window.)
When my car's passenger window started acting up failing to drop when I opened the door, or worse dropping then going back up after the door was opened, when the door lock LED on the dash would light for no apparent reason, and the doors would lock, or when locking the car the horn would sound like something was ajar -- but nothing ever was ajar -- the tech connected the Porsche diagnostic computer and read the codes and pin-pointed the door lock assembly.
My point is do not dismiss getting someone involved who has the right diagnostics computer and knows how to use it. These electrical issues even without water or rodents or what hav you -- just wear as was the case with my car -- can be a real pain to troubleshoot.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2014 05:58PM by MarcW. (view changes)
| Re: Do the windows drop when you pull on a door handle, either the inside handle or the outside... HamB3 - 9 years ago |
MarcW,
Thank you for your reply to my issue:
When I pull the latch on either door, the window lowers a few millimeters as it is supposed to and when I release the latch, it rises back up. That is the only movement i can get with the windows. The console switches have no effect nor does the power top release. I am suspecting the alarm interface as it is the only electronic part I don't know how to test. I have ordered an iCarsoft i960 diagnostic scanner and am hoping that this will help me find the problem.
In the meantime, is there a way of bypassing the alarm module interface with the power windows to find out if that is the issue?
Thank you for your reply to my issue:
When I pull the latch on either door, the window lowers a few millimeters as it is supposed to and when I release the latch, it rises back up. That is the only movement i can get with the windows. The console switches have no effect nor does the power top release. I am suspecting the alarm interface as it is the only electronic part I don't know how to test. I have ordered an iCarsoft i960 diagnostic scanner and am hoping that this will help me find the problem.
In the meantime, is there a way of bypassing the alarm module interface with the power windows to find out if that is the issue?
| Did a search on the iCarsoft i960 and while I found the unit I found no details... MarcW - 9 years ago |
on what it can or can not do.
Communicating with the car's security system requires special knowledge of in this case Porsche's proprietary communication which it does not publish. The only tool I know that might have this ability is Durametric.
You might find the iCarsoft tool is just a vanilla OBD2 code reader/data viewer tool and not a diagnostics computer on the order of Durametric.
I'm not convinced the car's security system is the culprit here. Door windows, and door locks, go bad and the car's security system plays no role in their going bad.
Even if the security system was suspect, if there is any way of bypassing the car's security system, I'm not aware of it having never used a Durametric tool (and of course the official Porsche diagnostics tools).
I do know from my experience with my Boxster and having at least one door lock assembly replaced, at least one door latch assembly replaced, and two window regulators replaced -- all due to wear -- the car's security system can be queried for error codes that can help a tech pinpoint what is wrong in the system. But this query must of course be done with a proper tool. Durametric I think is one such tool and I know one of the Porsche diagnostic computers can do this. The Porsche diagnostic computers are 1) hard to come by; 2) expensive.
It is kind of a shade tree kind of thing but have you tried disconnecting the battery? If you try this be sure you follow the proper guidelines for battery disconnect.
Before you disconnect the battery be sure you have the radio security code. Be sure the key is out of the ignition and all electrical accessories are off. Once the battery is disconnected step on the brake pedal to remove any residual power in the car's electrical system. Reconnect the battery and see if windows operate.
It would be too good to be true if this "cured" the windows of their behavior but without the proper tools, training, you are limited to what you can do.
Did you check for dampness under the seats, especially the one -- passenger side? -- under which the security module resides? Did you check the doors for signs of dampness? Give the doors a shake listening for any sounds of water in the doors. This is important. Generally if the security system is acting up it is doing so because it got wet.
Check the body water drains at the front of the car under the panels on either side of the battery for water. These drains can become blocked and allow water to back up which can overflow into the cabin. Check the drains one on either side of the top, one under each clam shell arm. You'll have to put the top in the service position to get access to these drains.
One question I have is does the top work ok? But I am loathe to have you test this to confirm if the windows do not drop when the top latch is opened. That the windows do not drop when you unlatch the top suggests to me the problem could be with the this latch/switch assembly but a suggestion is not enough to advise you to act.
I do not have my references handy but have you looked at the fuse/relay assignments printed on the label inside the fuse box lid to see if there are any fuses/relays that are in the security circuit? Or door/window/top circuits? The problem could simply be due to a bad fuse.
Communicating with the car's security system requires special knowledge of in this case Porsche's proprietary communication which it does not publish. The only tool I know that might have this ability is Durametric.
You might find the iCarsoft tool is just a vanilla OBD2 code reader/data viewer tool and not a diagnostics computer on the order of Durametric.
I'm not convinced the car's security system is the culprit here. Door windows, and door locks, go bad and the car's security system plays no role in their going bad.
Even if the security system was suspect, if there is any way of bypassing the car's security system, I'm not aware of it having never used a Durametric tool (and of course the official Porsche diagnostics tools).
I do know from my experience with my Boxster and having at least one door lock assembly replaced, at least one door latch assembly replaced, and two window regulators replaced -- all due to wear -- the car's security system can be queried for error codes that can help a tech pinpoint what is wrong in the system. But this query must of course be done with a proper tool. Durametric I think is one such tool and I know one of the Porsche diagnostic computers can do this. The Porsche diagnostic computers are 1) hard to come by; 2) expensive.
It is kind of a shade tree kind of thing but have you tried disconnecting the battery? If you try this be sure you follow the proper guidelines for battery disconnect.
Before you disconnect the battery be sure you have the radio security code. Be sure the key is out of the ignition and all electrical accessories are off. Once the battery is disconnected step on the brake pedal to remove any residual power in the car's electrical system. Reconnect the battery and see if windows operate.
It would be too good to be true if this "cured" the windows of their behavior but without the proper tools, training, you are limited to what you can do.
Did you check for dampness under the seats, especially the one -- passenger side? -- under which the security module resides? Did you check the doors for signs of dampness? Give the doors a shake listening for any sounds of water in the doors. This is important. Generally if the security system is acting up it is doing so because it got wet.
Check the body water drains at the front of the car under the panels on either side of the battery for water. These drains can become blocked and allow water to back up which can overflow into the cabin. Check the drains one on either side of the top, one under each clam shell arm. You'll have to put the top in the service position to get access to these drains.
One question I have is does the top work ok? But I am loathe to have you test this to confirm if the windows do not drop when the top latch is opened. That the windows do not drop when you unlatch the top suggests to me the problem could be with the this latch/switch assembly but a suggestion is not enough to advise you to act.
I do not have my references handy but have you looked at the fuse/relay assignments printed on the label inside the fuse box lid to see if there are any fuses/relays that are in the security circuit? Or door/window/top circuits? The problem could simply be due to a bad fuse.
| From what you are describing ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
... I would think that the problem is in the CLU (Central Locking Unit). The black box under the driver's seat.
This unit controls the windows, locks, soft to and alarm/immobilizer.
If it's wet or has been wet in the past that's the most likely problem.
There is a small fuse right on the CLU that you should check.
If the fuse is OK then remove the CLU and check for water damage.
Neither a generic scanner nor the Durametric will allow into the CLU. Just the PST-II or the PIWIS.
The fact that the windows drop a few mm when the latch is pulled tells me that the door locking mechanism is working and so is the window regulator and motor.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
This unit controls the windows, locks, soft to and alarm/immobilizer.
If it's wet or has been wet in the past that's the most likely problem.
There is a small fuse right on the CLU that you should check.
If the fuse is OK then remove the CLU and check for water damage.
Neither a generic scanner nor the Durametric will allow into the CLU. Just the PST-II or the PIWIS.
The fact that the windows drop a few mm when the latch is pulled tells me that the door locking mechanism is working and so is the window regulator and motor.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: 98 Boxster Power Windows San Rensho - 9 years ago |
| If the CLU is shot ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
... the windows will not move with the switch or with the key.
The. CLU controls the voltage to the motors.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
The. CLU controls the voltage to the motors.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: If the CLU is shot ... HamB3 - 9 years ago |
Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
The. CLU controls the voltage to the motors.
Pedro
This is what I was looking for. It's been raining here off and on for two days, so I haven't tried to pull the seat to get at the CLU. However, I would like to have a game plan if I do find that it is wet or damaged in some way as to need replacement. Do you know in what way electrically that the CLU controls the voltage?
Is it conceivable to bypass the CLU all together and wire the windows direct to a 12 volt circuit? I'm not so concerned about the wiring for the circuit for the windows, because I could figure that out. I would be more concerned with what the CLU does when the window signal is removed from it.
Thank you for your help.
| Re: If the CLU is shot ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
Like I said before, the CLU controls windows, locks, alarm, immobilizer and soft top.
If it's dead you'll need a new one which will have to be programmed in.
You cannot install a used one because they can only be programmed once.
It's very difficult to predict what it will do if you remove some signals.
I know from making race cars that it's very complex and for instance to remove the immobilizer function we have to simulate several signals by installing additional hardware.
When the CLU gets wet if you don't try to run windows etc. sometimes it can be saved if you don't wait too long.
Remove it from the car, open it and dunk the printed circuit board in isopropyl alcohol.
This displaces any water. Let it air-dry and install.
Good luck.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
If it's dead you'll need a new one which will have to be programmed in.
You cannot install a used one because they can only be programmed once.
It's very difficult to predict what it will do if you remove some signals.
I know from making race cars that it's very complex and for instance to remove the immobilizer function we have to simulate several signals by installing additional hardware.
When the CLU gets wet if you don't try to run windows etc. sometimes it can be saved if you don't wait too long.
Remove it from the car, open it and dunk the printed circuit board in isopropyl alcohol.
This displaces any water. Let it air-dry and install.
Good luck.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: If the CLU is shot ... HamB3 - 9 years ago |
Pedro, thanks for your help to this point. I removed the CLU. The floor under the driver seat was not wet at all, but I took apart the CLU and soaked the printed circuit board in Isopropyl alcohol like you said. I also checked the fuse and upon reassembly, used DeOxit on all connectors and ground. Unfortunately, the windows still do not work. Is that conclusive, given all of the other checks and traces I have done, that the CLU is shot?
Also, there are a few CLU's on ebay complete with the Key, ignition barrel, door lock, center console lock, motor computer and transmission computer. Assuming these are good units, would this be a way to go?
Which parts at a minimum would I have to replace to make everything in my Boxster work? I assume that the mileage on the car will now show the mileage from the donor car?
Thanks so much.
Also, there are a few CLU's on ebay complete with the Key, ignition barrel, door lock, center console lock, motor computer and transmission computer. Assuming these are good units, would this be a way to go?
Which parts at a minimum would I have to replace to make everything in my Boxster work? I assume that the mileage on the car will now show the mileage from the donor car?
Thanks so much.
| Re: If the CLU is shot ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
Dunking in alcohol was only if the circuit board had water.
The fact that you did it and the windows still don't work is not a definite diagnosis that the CLU is bad.
Why would anyone go through all the trouble of replacing the CLU, DME, Door lock, Ignition lock and key and pay $450 - $500 for an unknown quality product from eBay when you can purchase the CLU brand new form a Porsche dealer for $412.48 (MSRP - discounts are available). For the 1998 the correct part number is: 986.618.260.03.
All you need is a new CLUY and some reprogramming (1 hour labor at most).
But, you need to make sure that the problem is indeed the CLU before you start buying and replacing parts.
You need to hook up the car to a PIWIS or PST-II computer in order to diagnose.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
The fact that you did it and the windows still don't work is not a definite diagnosis that the CLU is bad.
Why would anyone go through all the trouble of replacing the CLU, DME, Door lock, Ignition lock and key and pay $450 - $500 for an unknown quality product from eBay when you can purchase the CLU brand new form a Porsche dealer for $412.48 (MSRP - discounts are available). For the 1998 the correct part number is: 986.618.260.03.
All you need is a new CLUY and some reprogramming (1 hour labor at most).
But, you need to make sure that the problem is indeed the CLU before you start buying and replacing parts.
You need to hook up the car to a PIWIS or PST-II computer in order to diagnose.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
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