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| Hmm. So whats up with this supposed DOF failure? San Rensho - 9 years ago |
Supposed is the key word here.
First he doesn't say there's bee a failure.
He states there was an issue with the oil feed.
The OP doesn't give any more information on who installed the DOF or if it's been damaged in any way.
We don't know the condition of the engine, and of its oil.
We don't know if it had the correct amount of oil.
Out of thousands of units already sold and installed, this is the first I hear of it and funny that they wouldn't contact us?
You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Happy Porscheing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
First he doesn't say there's bee a failure.
He states there was an issue with the oil feed.
The OP doesn't give any more information on who installed the DOF or if it's been damaged in any way.
We don't know the condition of the engine, and of its oil.
We don't know if it had the correct amount of oil.
Out of thousands of units already sold and installed, this is the first I hear of it and funny that they wouldn't contact us?
You can't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Happy Porscheing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| I know of one case ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
... where the customer forgot to tell the shop that his last oil change had been over 20,000 miles before.
The DOF was installed and upon startup there was valvetrain and ticking noise as the OP describes.
The shop decided to open the oil pan and here's what they found:
[i83.photobucket.com]
Then they removed the oil filter and this was in there:
[i83.photobucket.com]
This car's engine was throughly flushed and cleaned with Wurth Engine Flush and Claeaner.
New oil filter and fresh oil at the correct level went in and all noises went away.
It's very easy to blame the DOF (or any other new part) when in fact, the culprit was the negligence of the owner (in the above case).
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
The DOF was installed and upon startup there was valvetrain and ticking noise as the OP describes.
The shop decided to open the oil pan and here's what they found:
[i83.photobucket.com]
Then they removed the oil filter and this was in there:
[i83.photobucket.com]
This car's engine was throughly flushed and cleaned with Wurth Engine Flush and Claeaner.
New oil filter and fresh oil at the correct level went in and all noises went away.
It's very easy to blame the DOF (or any other new part) when in fact, the culprit was the negligence of the owner (in the above case).
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Laz - 9 years ago |
... Or sooner if he sees tell-tale bits in the filter.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2014 12:19PM by Laz. (view changes)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2014 12:19PM by Laz. (view changes)
| The problem is by the time he sees bits in the filter it may be too late. The engine has to be... MarcW - 9 years ago |
qualified or should be qualified as a suitable candidate for this or any work. I do not know what the company selling the DOF recommends in this regard but another company offering a popular IMSB upgrade has quite an extensive check list.
I know of at least one 996 engine that manifested bits from a failed IMSB but the engine had to be removed from the car and torn down and thoroughly cleaned and the collateral damage fixed before it was reassembled with a new IMS and bearing and associated hardware.
I know of at least one 996 engine that manifested bits from a failed IMSB but the engine had to be removed from the car and torn down and thoroughly cleaned and the collateral damage fixed before it was reassembled with a new IMS and bearing and associated hardware.
Boxsterra - 9 years ago |
The flow of oil through the DOF is limited by the oil pressure and the size of the tube. It's not possible for the feed to "go bad" and suddenly divert too much oil. So if there's indeed not enough oil pressure with the DOF then there's also not enough without it.
If the oil pressure with the DOF were inadequate then we would have already seen many failures. Insufficient oil pressure doesn't take long to present symptoms like the IMS bearing problems do. And there are tons of operational DOF installations.
In other words, with the current information the DOF can not be the cause of the problem.
If the oil pressure with the DOF were inadequate then we would have already seen many failures. Insufficient oil pressure doesn't take long to present symptoms like the IMS bearing problems do. And there are tons of operational DOF installations.
In other words, with the current information the DOF can not be the cause of the problem.
Laz - 9 years ago |
The original mechanic wrote:
Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
This quoted statement is very true. The OP can only speak to the car he saw. With the facts given, there is little one ca say about the DOF.
let's look at the issue. He is claiming that the DOF draws sufficient oil to lower the oil pressure/flow. He leaves unsaid the implied mechanism of starving the Variocam.
What we do know is that:
1. on many, many cars with DOF there is no problem - so a healthy engine can certainly suffer the small DOF losses (think of it a parallel resistance in the load)
2. Porsche must design with a variety of flow rates in mind, from idle to 7k rpm. Oil pump volume will vary greatly. It cannot be terribly sensitive to a small load change
3. the draw is 100ml< draw < 400ml - vastly below the available oil flow
We also know that many things affect available oil flow: pump condition, oil passage condition (blockages, sludge etc.) debris.
This can be modeled as the fluid dynamics version of an impedance match. If you have a high impedance (low flow) source, a moderate load will cause a drop in voltage (pressure, and, by extension, flow) in both the parasitic flow (DOF) and the main flow (heads/variocam). This in fact could have been measured if the mechanic wanted to understand the cause. Maybe it should be.
The cause - to me - is very likely a motor that is already flowing poorly. The why is hard to say, but sludge or blocking debris would be high on my list to investigate.
Oddly, the DOF may have been an early warning system for a much more serious problem - automotive arterial sclerosis.
We don;t know, but speculation should be used productively and this seems to be not only jumping to conclusions, but very likely the wrong one.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Anything is possible. All I can speak to is what I found on this particular car.
This quoted statement is very true. The OP can only speak to the car he saw. With the facts given, there is little one ca say about the DOF.
let's look at the issue. He is claiming that the DOF draws sufficient oil to lower the oil pressure/flow. He leaves unsaid the implied mechanism of starving the Variocam.
What we do know is that:
1. on many, many cars with DOF there is no problem - so a healthy engine can certainly suffer the small DOF losses (think of it a parallel resistance in the load)
2. Porsche must design with a variety of flow rates in mind, from idle to 7k rpm. Oil pump volume will vary greatly. It cannot be terribly sensitive to a small load change
3. the draw is 100ml< draw < 400ml - vastly below the available oil flow
We also know that many things affect available oil flow: pump condition, oil passage condition (blockages, sludge etc.) debris.
This can be modeled as the fluid dynamics version of an impedance match. If you have a high impedance (low flow) source, a moderate load will cause a drop in voltage (pressure, and, by extension, flow) in both the parasitic flow (DOF) and the main flow (heads/variocam). This in fact could have been measured if the mechanic wanted to understand the cause. Maybe it should be.
The cause - to me - is very likely a motor that is already flowing poorly. The why is hard to say, but sludge or blocking debris would be high on my list to investigate.
Oddly, the DOF may have been an early warning system for a much more serious problem - automotive arterial sclerosis.
We don;t know, but speculation should be used productively and this seems to be not only jumping to conclusions, but very likely the wrong one.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: Hmm. So whats up with this supposed DOF failure? BOB W - 9 years ago |
I have Pedros' DOF system on my 2001 Boxster S and my Spec Boxster race car.
I do not have any symptoms on either car as described. My 2001S is a daily driver and the race car gets plenty of track time. Perhaps there is another cause for the cam timing being out. For example, I had a cam timing issue on the Boxster S PRIOR to the DOF install and it was a faulty solenoid which was intermittent. We replaced it and the cam timing issue went away. Please take note that the cam timing issue was intermittent and occurred PRIOR to the DOF install.
I am happy with this system and confident it is a good approach to the IMS issue.
I do not have any symptoms on either car as described. My 2001S is a daily driver and the race car gets plenty of track time. Perhaps there is another cause for the cam timing being out. For example, I had a cam timing issue on the Boxster S PRIOR to the DOF install and it was a faulty solenoid which was intermittent. We replaced it and the cam timing issue went away. Please take note that the cam timing issue was intermittent and occurred PRIOR to the DOF install.
I am happy with this system and confident it is a good approach to the IMS issue.
| Re: Hmm. So whats up with this supposed DOF failure? chamilun - 9 years ago |
| One thing.... mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
It isn't being posted by someone doing their first post. On one forum, the poster had over 1,300 posts.
So I start from an assumption that he is acting in good faith. May be right or wrong.
He says he is in the paid business of repairing the car, not doing research. So we may never know more about what the conditions were beyond what he has reported. He is apparently removing the DOF and the IMS (I noted he doesn't say whose bearing the DOF was being used with, what its age or condition was or is.) in favor of trying another approach.
In the last 2 weeks I've also seen an LN bearing "failure" reported on a forum by a new owner who had owned the car for less than a month. Stories of people possibly repairing cars with broken bearings and then selling them on quickly for higher prices have been posted. Now if they ever followed the recommended procedures for qualifying the engine to assure there was no debris or cleaning out the engine if there was will never be known.
Know your engine's prior condition and know the installer's ethics.
So I start from an assumption that he is acting in good faith. May be right or wrong.
He says he is in the paid business of repairing the car, not doing research. So we may never know more about what the conditions were beyond what he has reported. He is apparently removing the DOF and the IMS (I noted he doesn't say whose bearing the DOF was being used with, what its age or condition was or is.) in favor of trying another approach.
In the last 2 weeks I've also seen an LN bearing "failure" reported on a forum by a new owner who had owned the car for less than a month. Stories of people possibly repairing cars with broken bearings and then selling them on quickly for higher prices have been posted. Now if they ever followed the recommended procedures for qualifying the engine to assure there was no debris or cleaning out the engine if there was will never be known.
Know your engine's prior condition and know the installer's ethics.
He jumped to a conclusion that is at best unsupported, and at worst highly misleading. He warned people about something he knew little about.
That should be countered. It would be fine if he posted what he found. But instead, he posted that the DOF caused the issue and should be avoided.
Marginally libelous.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
That should be countered. It would be fine if he posted what he found. But instead, he posted that the DOF caused the issue and should be avoided.
Marginally libelous.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: Very good points. That said, I think the 986forum poster was hasty and unfair amondc - 9 years ago |
I did not jump to any conclusions. I looked at several things before I even touched the DOF. When I took the DOF out of the equation the problem went away. Logically one would come to the conclusion that this was the cause of the problem. My post was factual, I never attacked Pedro or his product, and I stated that this was just my opinion based on what I found. If you don't like it then move on, install his products, do what you want. I don't care.
proves nothing. Parts swapping is not diagnosis.
Let's back up and address the issue.
The assertion is that the DOF drew sufficient oil to affect the performance of the variocam mechanism. Correct? No other assertion makes much sense.
If this is true, then we MUST assume that there is insufficient headroom above the maximum flow rate to a) oil the car, b) drive variocam and c) drive the DOF, all simultaneously.
If true under normal circumstances this would affect 100% of DOF equipped cars. It does not.
So what is different about this car? There are 4 possibilities:
1. the DOF was not installed properly (how i cannot say)
2. the oil pump or local passageway restricts flow at pressure X so that it cannot deliver the volume other cars do
3. The motor draws more oil than expected, using up the flow needed by the VC and DOF
4. The variocam requires more oil or pressure than normal, for unknown reasons
There are no other explanations that fit all facts.
The most basic numbers to know are the oil pressure and flow. They could tell us if the motor has low pressure due to, for example, bearing wear (a normal issue with high age motors) or due to a poor pump or, blocked passages (typically high pressure before the blockage and low after).
You don't appear to know those. You were not paid to measure those, i realize, but without them you cant really say anything at all.
The issue i raised, as did others, is that you DID draw a conclusion, without the needed facts.
You said then, and re-iterated here, that swapping the part proves it is the fault. Not even close to true.
I think you should acknowledge that. we cant expect more from you than that. We'd love data, but someone has to pay you to make the tests, so we cannot expect it.
but we can expect that you dont claim things that are not substantiated by what you know.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 01:12PM by grant. (view changes)
Let's back up and address the issue.
The assertion is that the DOF drew sufficient oil to affect the performance of the variocam mechanism. Correct? No other assertion makes much sense.
If this is true, then we MUST assume that there is insufficient headroom above the maximum flow rate to a) oil the car, b) drive variocam and c) drive the DOF, all simultaneously.
If true under normal circumstances this would affect 100% of DOF equipped cars. It does not.
So what is different about this car? There are 4 possibilities:
1. the DOF was not installed properly (how i cannot say)
2. the oil pump or local passageway restricts flow at pressure X so that it cannot deliver the volume other cars do
3. The motor draws more oil than expected, using up the flow needed by the VC and DOF
4. The variocam requires more oil or pressure than normal, for unknown reasons
There are no other explanations that fit all facts.
The most basic numbers to know are the oil pressure and flow. They could tell us if the motor has low pressure due to, for example, bearing wear (a normal issue with high age motors) or due to a poor pump or, blocked passages (typically high pressure before the blockage and low after).
You don't appear to know those. You were not paid to measure those, i realize, but without them you cant really say anything at all.
The issue i raised, as did others, is that you DID draw a conclusion, without the needed facts.
You said then, and re-iterated here, that swapping the part proves it is the fault. Not even close to true.
I think you should acknowledge that. we cant expect more from you than that. We'd love data, but someone has to pay you to make the tests, so we cannot expect it.
but we can expect that you dont claim things that are not substantiated by what you know.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 01:12PM by grant. (view changes)
| M96? N on my own, no. I dont have the tools. Why? grant - 9 years ago |
Does that alter the laws of physics?
Ar they much different from other motors? (hint: no)
All we're asking is that you provide us with simple measurements or acknowledge what you don't yet know.
I took it step by step since i posted the analysis once already to your original 986forum post.
But look, all i can do is read. Whether you understood or not, your reply was "but i swapped the part and the noise went away". So i was more explicit.
Bottom line - can you help us answer the questions or clear up that they are still open ( and make that clear, since it impacts people's perception of what's going on)
I am trying to be as no-confrontational as possible, but you are becoming more strident. Can't you answer the questions, please? We all really would like to know what the facts are.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 01:40PM by grant. (view changes)
Ar they much different from other motors? (hint: no)
All we're asking is that you provide us with simple measurements or acknowledge what you don't yet know.
I took it step by step since i posted the analysis once already to your original 986forum post.
But look, all i can do is read. Whether you understood or not, your reply was "but i swapped the part and the noise went away". So i was more explicit.
Bottom line - can you help us answer the questions or clear up that they are still open ( and make that clear, since it impacts people's perception of what's going on)
I am trying to be as no-confrontational as possible, but you are becoming more strident. Can't you answer the questions, please? We all really would like to know what the facts are.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 01:40PM by grant. (view changes)
You say you didn't attack Pedro's DOF.
What you DID do was declare:
"I will never put one of these on any motor ever!!".
By any reasonable interpretation, that is a criticism of the part, no way around it.
I'm not saying your comment, in and of itself, is bad faith, nor libelous. But it may have been carelessly offered, or uninformed, or both. You can certainly shed some light on that, as Grant noted, and as I note, immediately below. Grant's questions are reasonable.
From what you wrote, your declaration was based on the fact that, upon removing the DOF, the symptoms went away.
If you conducted other tests (in your initial posts, you said you didn't, but maybe you subsequently did) which assisted you in coming to your conclusion that you would "never put one of these on any motor ever!!", then I (and likely anyone else reading your posts) would be very interested in knowing what those tests were, how you carried them out, and the results.
What you DID do was declare:
"I will never put one of these on any motor ever!!".
By any reasonable interpretation, that is a criticism of the part, no way around it.
I'm not saying your comment, in and of itself, is bad faith, nor libelous. But it may have been carelessly offered, or uninformed, or both. You can certainly shed some light on that, as Grant noted, and as I note, immediately below. Grant's questions are reasonable.
From what you wrote, your declaration was based on the fact that, upon removing the DOF, the symptoms went away.
If you conducted other tests (in your initial posts, you said you didn't, but maybe you subsequently did) which assisted you in coming to your conclusion that you would "never put one of these on any motor ever!!", then I (and likely anyone else reading your posts) would be very interested in knowing what those tests were, how you carried them out, and the results.
| Re: To AmondC amondc - 9 years ago |
Sorry for the delay. I was at Hallett racing all weekend and got tired of replying on my phone.
My name is Chris Amond. Carl is my father. We race 3 spec boxsters currently and i have raced everything from a 914-6, Cup Car, boxster, rx7, miata etc for the past 20 years. I currently have 8 boxster motors in my garage plus 2 that I am building. I know a little about these motors and cars. I looked thru my log book and i just completed my 22nd race weekend on a stock motor with an x-51 pan and accusump. Stock ims bearing with no oiling at all.
The customer left with the parts in a box and his car. I was not able to do any further testing on the car or the parts. If he want to send the to Pedro he is welcome to they are not mine to decide what to do with.
The car came in with noisy lifters and erratic cam timing. I looked at the tensioners, ramps, chains etc found no issues. I disconnected the oil line to the ims bearing, plugged the holes and ran the car. The lifter noise went away and the cam timing was back in spec. I told the customer what i had done and what i had found, he told me that he was going to order the IMS Solution and wanted me to install it. I did and ran the car for 200 miles with no issues. I gave him his car back and the parts. That is all i did and alla that I am going to do. I am not an engineer and never claimed to be one, I'm sorry that I cannot answer all of your questions, or do any further testing. I told him that Pedro would like to see the parts but I dont know if that happened or not.
From now on i will not post any of my opinions anywhere. I had gotten away from it but felt that this was something worth sharing.
Grant, Sorry for calling you an a-hole, i was tired and frustraited, shouldnt have happened. I'm sure you are a good guy.
Chris
My name is Chris Amond. Carl is my father. We race 3 spec boxsters currently and i have raced everything from a 914-6, Cup Car, boxster, rx7, miata etc for the past 20 years. I currently have 8 boxster motors in my garage plus 2 that I am building. I know a little about these motors and cars. I looked thru my log book and i just completed my 22nd race weekend on a stock motor with an x-51 pan and accusump. Stock ims bearing with no oiling at all.
The customer left with the parts in a box and his car. I was not able to do any further testing on the car or the parts. If he want to send the to Pedro he is welcome to they are not mine to decide what to do with.
The car came in with noisy lifters and erratic cam timing. I looked at the tensioners, ramps, chains etc found no issues. I disconnected the oil line to the ims bearing, plugged the holes and ran the car. The lifter noise went away and the cam timing was back in spec. I told the customer what i had done and what i had found, he told me that he was going to order the IMS Solution and wanted me to install it. I did and ran the car for 200 miles with no issues. I gave him his car back and the parts. That is all i did and alla that I am going to do. I am not an engineer and never claimed to be one, I'm sorry that I cannot answer all of your questions, or do any further testing. I told him that Pedro would like to see the parts but I dont know if that happened or not.
From now on i will not post any of my opinions anywhere. I had gotten away from it but felt that this was something worth sharing.
Grant, Sorry for calling you an a-hole, i was tired and frustraited, shouldnt have happened. I'm sure you are a good guy.
Chris
| Thanks, Chris. grant - 9 years ago |
Don't hesitate to share opinions. We actually value them, even if it feels like we didn't.
I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Especially for occasionally driven cars, the DOF is in fact the least intrusive, cheapest,and most fundamentally right solution out there, in *my* opinion.
You are raising a potential issue with oil feed. We - and probably Pedro too - actually want to and should know about that. Is it uniquer to that car? Something others should consider? We don;t know. And we understand that its not your job to do free research for us either.
I have not looked into specifically where the DOF taps from. I'm not sure the documentation i have on M96 ( Bentley, etc) is sufficient. I may need to go look at a head on the bench at a race shop and see.
Why not reach out to Pedro privately?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Especially for occasionally driven cars, the DOF is in fact the least intrusive, cheapest,and most fundamentally right solution out there, in *my* opinion.
You are raising a potential issue with oil feed. We - and probably Pedro too - actually want to and should know about that. Is it uniquer to that car? Something others should consider? We don;t know. And we understand that its not your job to do free research for us either.
I have not looked into specifically where the DOF taps from. I'm not sure the documentation i have on M96 ( Bentley, etc) is sufficient. I may need to go look at a head on the bench at a race shop and see.
Why not reach out to Pedro privately?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
*NM*| Re: Thanks, Chris. Roger987 - 9 years ago |
| Re: One thing.... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I start from an assumption that he is acting in good faith.
If someone acts in good faith don't you think he should have contacted the manufacturer of the suspected part first, before he plasters his biased opinion all over the Internet?
Instead of doing the logical thing for someone acting in good faith, he now has publicly offered to send the part to the completion (Jake Raby).
That's the poster child of good faith right?
If it's true that there was a lubrication issue with the car, I'd like to see if our unit was installed properly or if it was altered in any way, but at this point I don't even believe that the incident even happened.
Happy DOF'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| IO realize how oen sided it looks. But i beleiev he simply didnt think (on many levels) grant - 9 years ago |
Lots of techs are parts swappers. If a part is swapped and the problem goes away, the part is at fault.
That's a bad assumption, but a simple one. I think he simply got caught up in that.
I'm not excusing his actions, but i would nto now jump to conclusions that its a conspiracy - i think its simply ignorance.
Or maybe hastiness. Not an ent.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
That's a bad assumption, but a simple one. I think he simply got caught up in that.
I'm not excusing his actions, but i would nto now jump to conclusions that its a conspiracy - i think its simply ignorance.
Or maybe hastiness. Not an ent.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| It may be ignorance ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
... On the part of the tech, but what upsets me is that there was no good faith.
That's what I'm disputing mikefocke.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
That's what I'm disputing mikefocke.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: It may be ignorance ... amondc - 9 years ago |
| Read the thread above. context matters. grant - 9 years ago |
| Re: Read the thread above. context matters. amondc - 9 years ago |
Next time I need my car fixed I'll be sure to call you. You seem to know everything.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2014 10:27AM by Boxsterra. (view changes)
| Great answer. grant - 9 years ago |
Speaks volumes
to others: why is it so difficult to say "no i don't understand the oil flow in that motor"?
It pretty much cements my position.
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 02:02PM by grant. (view changes)
to others: why is it so difficult to say "no i don't understand the oil flow in that motor"?
It pretty much cements my position.
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2014 02:02PM by grant. (view changes)
Boxsterra - 9 years ago |
| Bad Faith ? Roger987 - 9 years ago |
In this instance, the mechanic acknowledged that he 'did not do more testing', and was clear that he was offering a 'personal opinion'.
And it's open to him to say "I will never put one of these on any motor ever!!".
It's up to the reader to determine whether the mechanic had conducted an informed evaluation of the part. My own view is he hasn't, given that he acknowledged he didn't do more testing. Further, he didn't say what he would choose instead of the DOF, and why. In the absence of that, and given the IMS bearing is a known weak spot, his comments aren't of great value.
The most I might conclude from his post is if the engine has oil pressure problems, the DOF might reveal it sooner, rather than later. If that's the case, it isn't a bad thing.
I don't start from any assumption as to whether he was speaking in good or bad faith; I simply read his posts, and draw my conclusions from those.
Ultimately, I don't think, on the basis of his posts, I could reasonably conclude he was speaking in 'bad faith'.
As an aside, historically, when a Porsche 98x engine blew up, Porsche had it shipped back to the factory and doesn't disclose the cause of failure. It took a class action lawsuit to make Porsche come out of the closet. Clearly, in all those instances, sending the part back to the manufacturer virtually guaranteed the source of the problem would not be disclosed. Was Porsche acting in bad faith?
.
And it's open to him to say "I will never put one of these on any motor ever!!".
It's up to the reader to determine whether the mechanic had conducted an informed evaluation of the part. My own view is he hasn't, given that he acknowledged he didn't do more testing. Further, he didn't say what he would choose instead of the DOF, and why. In the absence of that, and given the IMS bearing is a known weak spot, his comments aren't of great value.
The most I might conclude from his post is if the engine has oil pressure problems, the DOF might reveal it sooner, rather than later. If that's the case, it isn't a bad thing.
I don't start from any assumption as to whether he was speaking in good or bad faith; I simply read his posts, and draw my conclusions from those.
Ultimately, I don't think, on the basis of his posts, I could reasonably conclude he was speaking in 'bad faith'.
As an aside, historically, when a Porsche 98x engine blew up, Porsche had it shipped back to the factory and doesn't disclose the cause of failure. It took a class action lawsuit to make Porsche come out of the closet. Clearly, in all those instances, sending the part back to the manufacturer virtually guaranteed the source of the problem would not be disclosed. Was Porsche acting in bad faith?
.
| Actually mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
in a later posting he has said what he is ordering to replace the DOF and IMS bearing. He hasn't cited the bearing itself as a suspect nor has he pulled the bearing and identified who made it that I've seen.
It occurs to me that the creators of the DOF have said that the DOF draws an inconsequential amount of oil from the valve train area. Some folks suspect the base oil pressure as the cause of the owner's perceived problem and not the DOF, Might they be led to the conclusion from the mechanics experience that, at the margins, the DOF can have a consequence?
(Pedro, I know it is frustrating not to be able to see the installation and run any tests. I'm sure Jake feels the same way when troubles are pinned on his products. If you want the product back for testing, why don't you ask the mechanic?)
It occurs to me that the creators of the DOF have said that the DOF draws an inconsequential amount of oil from the valve train area. Some folks suspect the base oil pressure as the cause of the owner's perceived problem and not the DOF, Might they be led to the conclusion from the mechanics experience that, at the margins, the DOF can have a consequence?
(Pedro, I know it is frustrating not to be able to see the installation and run any tests. I'm sure Jake feels the same way when troubles are pinned on his products. If you want the product back for testing, why don't you ask the mechanic?)
| Re: Actually Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
I know my product and unless it was altered, it was not the cause of the alleged issues.
If what the OP states is correct, there are other internal issues going on in that engine.
The amount of oil drawn by the DOF is easily compensated by the oil pressure regulator.
If there is internal blockage of one or more oil galleys then what the OP describes could happen, but is not caused by the DOF; it is caused by the internal blockage.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
If what the OP states is correct, there are other internal issues going on in that engine.
The amount of oil drawn by the DOF is easily compensated by the oil pressure regulator.
If there is internal blockage of one or more oil galleys then what the OP describes could happen, but is not caused by the DOF; it is caused by the internal blockage.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Actually Roger987 - 9 years ago |
Mike, you're right - the 'solution' OP is has apparently selected IS mentioned in a later post. But that 'solution' isn't available for 2006+ models and he doesn't address why he thinks it's better, nor the risk of pretty much certain death if, for any reason, the oil feed should fail.
So, for me at least, his post is a very limited value.
So, for me at least, his post is a very limited value.
| I speculated at length on exactly that grant - 9 years ago |
Sure, if the oil system is failing the DOF could in some way's take it over the edge - but the edge of what?
In this case an audible symptom. Since it is already not oiling properly, this may be a GOOD thing, an early warning system.
So, yes, it could be a problem at the margin, btu at the margin you have bigger problems.
An analogy: when you load test a deteriorating bridge and it fails, we blame the load test? Don't do that any more?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
In this case an audible symptom. Since it is already not oiling properly, this may be a GOOD thing, an early warning system.
So, yes, it could be a problem at the margin, btu at the margin you have bigger problems.
An analogy: when you load test a deteriorating bridge and it fails, we blame the load test? Don't do that any more?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: One thing.... amondc - 9 years ago |
| Re: Hmm. So whats up with this supposed DOF failure? amondc - 9 years ago |
Just thought I'd clear some things up here. First off I never personally attacked Pedro or his products, I was merely pointing out personal observations. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I have been a professional Porsche mechanic for 20+ years, I've raced a Spec Boxster for the last 6 and have built several boxster race cars and boxster/996 engines. I'm not a weekend warrior who likes to just play with the cars.
In regards to the car in question, I don't care why it failed, not my car and I don't get paid to figure out why someone else's product failed. I put on the LN Solution and there were no issues with the car after that. If the customer wants to do further testing then he is welcome too. His motor was healthy before and is again now. Everything was installed properly, although I didn't I stall it. He just brought it to me to diagnose his problem. I know these motors inside and out and I have contacts all over the country. I may not know everything but I can get it. I run into new and different problems daily.
In regards to the car in question, I don't care why it failed, not my car and I don't get paid to figure out why someone else's product failed. I put on the LN Solution and there were no issues with the car after that. If the customer wants to do further testing then he is welcome too. His motor was healthy before and is again now. Everything was installed properly, although I didn't I stall it. He just brought it to me to diagnose his problem. I know these motors inside and out and I have contacts all over the country. I may not know everything but I can get it. I run into new and different problems daily.
| I dont see the details in your answer that I'd like to see. ( and i asked about) grant - 9 years ago |
I take ti you are the tech who reported on this originally?
You say:
"I put on the LN Solution and there were no issues with the car after that. [omitted] His motor was healthy before and is again now."
Can you define "no issues" and "healthy before and now"?
We all understand that the noise went away. That does not imply health.
The question, and i posed it quite clearly in terms of impedance match (applied to fluid dynamics) is whether there is sufficient oil pressure and flow per unit of pressure (output impedance) in the base engine. I am quite sure, unless there was an install issue you did not cite, that it was low, and likely still is. In that case the motor was not healthy and still is not - its simply quiet.
So i'd like to see the oil pressure and flow readings, please. Or i'd like us all to acknowledge that the most relevant fact is still unknown.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
You say:
"I put on the LN Solution and there were no issues with the car after that. [omitted] His motor was healthy before and is again now."
Can you define "no issues" and "healthy before and now"?
We all understand that the noise went away. That does not imply health.
The question, and i posed it quite clearly in terms of impedance match (applied to fluid dynamics) is whether there is sufficient oil pressure and flow per unit of pressure (output impedance) in the base engine. I am quite sure, unless there was an install issue you did not cite, that it was low, and likely still is. In that case the motor was not healthy and still is not - its simply quiet.
So i'd like to see the oil pressure and flow readings, please. Or i'd like us all to acknowledge that the most relevant fact is still unknown.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| That's fine. But.. grant - 9 years ago |
| Re: That's fine. But.. amondc - 9 years ago |
| I've also asked him mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
Gary in SoFL - 9 years ago |
Does anyone know what type of high end rebuilding shop he runs?
From his statements it sounds like he works on lots of sport and race engines, and his strong opinions are based on extensive experience.
"I know these motors inside and out and I have contacts all over the country. I may not know everything but I can get it. I run into new and different problems daily."
"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
From his statements it sounds like he works on lots of sport and race engines, and his strong opinions are based on extensive experience.
"I know these motors inside and out and I have contacts all over the country. I may not know everything but I can get it. I run into new and different problems daily."
"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
CarreraLicious - 9 years ago |
| Here's a link - scroll down to Roger987 - 9 years ago |
"Garage Glimpses: All in the Family – Carl Amond"
It appears he has more than a passing familiarity with car engines. Kind of a shame if he's feeling defensive, as he might well have useful information for us regarding our cars' motors generally.
[mav.pca.org]
It appears he has more than a passing familiarity with car engines. Kind of a shame if he's feeling defensive, as he might well have useful information for us regarding our cars' motors generally.
[mav.pca.org]
| Agreed. If he has that much experience... grant - 9 years ago |
.. he certainly knows what i was saying, yet in effect denied it, or actively ignored it.
If he has sufficient gut feel and practical knowledge to dismiss it in this case, i'd like to learn the what and why.
There may in fact be better places to tap from. But the fact remains that in 99% of cases there is more than sufficient oil to suffer the DOF loss, and in this case there was not. It screams "why?"
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
If he has sufficient gut feel and practical knowledge to dismiss it in this case, i'd like to learn the what and why.
There may in fact be better places to tap from. But the fact remains that in 99% of cases there is more than sufficient oil to suffer the DOF loss, and in this case there was not. It screams "why?"
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Gee he didn't mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
answer our questions immediately and do the research we want.
Maybe because he was off racing this weekend as he posted and because he works on a profit motive and we weren't paying him. And because the car is no longer in his possession.
It will be interesting to see if we hear anything about this car again.
Maybe because he was off racing this weekend as he posted and because he works on a profit motive and we weren't paying him. And because the car is no longer in his possession.
It will be interesting to see if we hear anything about this car again.
| And I regularly mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
ask similar questions of anyone involved with bringing these kits to market.
Go back to the original announcement by Jake here and you'll find me very skeptical of the amount of testing done on the original IMS product.
My background is 37 years of debugging and product management/production/support, I tend to ask questions so I can understand. If that bothers a product producer, he can ignore the questions. And people reading the forums can infer from that whatever they want.
I figure the person with the most experience can teach me something if I will only listen and ask questions to clarify when I don't understand. I seek similar qualities in my doctor or mechanic.
Go back to the original announcement by Jake here and you'll find me very skeptical of the amount of testing done on the original IMS product.
My background is 37 years of debugging and product management/production/support, I tend to ask questions so I can understand. If that bothers a product producer, he can ignore the questions. And people reading the forums can infer from that whatever they want.
I figure the person with the most experience can teach me something if I will only listen and ask questions to clarify when I don't understand. I seek similar qualities in my doctor or mechanic.
| That was nto my message at all. grant - 9 years ago |
In fact, i noted that we can;t explain him to do more research on his own nickel, and i totally understand he's off this weekend.
I am simply stating that if he does have experience based info to share, I am - and I bet many are - interested in hearing it.
That's all. An invitation for info.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2014 11:09AM by grant. (view changes)
I am simply stating that if he does have experience based info to share, I am - and I bet many are - interested in hearing it.
That's all. An invitation for info.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2014 11:09AM by grant. (view changes)
| Re: Exactly chamilun - 9 years ago |
... for which i'm on some occasional notification of posts...
It has come out that the DOF was installed with both seals on the bearing. This defeats the purpose of the oil feed and indicates at least one error in installation. Might there be two? We don't know.
For clarity, the original installer is NOT Chris. He did not make the mistake in any case.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
It has come out that the DOF was installed with both seals on the bearing. This defeats the purpose of the oil feed and indicates at least one error in installation. Might there be two? We don't know.
For clarity, the original installer is NOT Chris. He did not make the mistake in any case.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| From the small dample i have touched... grant - 9 years ago |
Heavily used cars may have bearing wear, but few fail outright.
I pulled one from the junk motor of my project car with 150k. diagnosed as failed IMS. It spun just fine.
But you cant get 150k with light use.
Back to the point, though, what else did the original mechanic get wrong? maybe nothing, but that raises yet another question for me.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2014 10:05AM by grant. (view changes)
I pulled one from the junk motor of my project car with 150k. diagnosed as failed IMS. It spun just fine.
But you cant get 150k with light use.
Back to the point, though, what else did the original mechanic get wrong? maybe nothing, but that raises yet another question for me.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2014 10:05AM by grant. (view changes)
| Becomes stranger to me mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - 9 years ago |
if the seal is intact then the line that leads from the valve train area to the IMS area is not going to be passing as much oil from that area as it could/should if everything is installed correctly and the oil can flow through the bearing. There will be backup in the line. Thus removing the line and plugging the hole should have very little effect on oil pressure within the valve train area. So why should the valve train operation change? Or am I reading this wrong?
Also, if the install was incorrect, shouldn't Chris change his opinion on the DOF and even change the subject line in his original postings? After all a installation snafu can bring down any IMS kit no matter that 99.9% of the others work fine because they were done right. An incorrect install tells us nothing about the quality of a correct install.
And Pedro, could the instructions need to be beefed up in the area of the treatment of the IMS bearing?
Also, if the install was incorrect, shouldn't Chris change his opinion on the DOF and even change the subject line in his original postings? After all a installation snafu can bring down any IMS kit no matter that 99.9% of the others work fine because they were done right. An incorrect install tells us nothing about the quality of a correct install.
And Pedro, could the instructions need to be beefed up in the area of the treatment of the IMS bearing?
| It opens many cans of worms... *NM* grant - 9 years ago |
| There's a LOT of weird data here .... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
... first, I don't think the OP ever described the car other than saying: "a customer Boxster".
We don't know if it was a dual-row or a single-row bearing car.
I'm going to assume that it was a single-row bearing because a DOF cannot be installed with dual-row bearing which has both seals.
In order for the bearing to fit it needs to be shaved down to the edge of the circlip and once that happens the seal cannot stay in place.
Here are two dual-row IMS bearings.
The one on the right is the OEM bearing
The one on the left is an OEM bearing that has been shaved-to-size for the DOF.
As you can see, it is shaved down to the edge of the circlip channel.
[i83.photobucket.com]
Mistake (BIG) number 1 ... having installed the DOF Kit with the outer seal intact.
The DOF was just going to cool down the race but oil was never going to get into the balls.
Whoever did the installation did not read the supplied instructions which clearly state that the bearings outer seal needs to be removed before the DOF flange is installed.
Another assumption I will make is that this engine was rebuilt, or at least had the head(s) worked on before the DOF was installed.
When you have a newly rebuilt engine (no oil in the galleys) you have to have the head plug in place so that the pump can build up pressure and fill all of the oil passages including those to the lifters, cams, etc.
Installing the DOF line is like having the plug open, therefore oil pressure won't build up, or will build up very slowly.
If the OP would have re-connected the DOF oil line after the galleys filled up the engine would have been quiet. and that would have ended the issue.
If the OP would have called the supplier, we would have guided him though the correct steps so that he could have corrected the car's issues at minimal cost to his customer.
Instead, he chose to not to do so, publishing a lot of mis-information on the forums and sourcing a competitor's part at his customer's expense.
All of this is just very weird.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2014 09:48PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
We don't know if it was a dual-row or a single-row bearing car.
I'm going to assume that it was a single-row bearing because a DOF cannot be installed with dual-row bearing which has both seals.
In order for the bearing to fit it needs to be shaved down to the edge of the circlip and once that happens the seal cannot stay in place.
Here are two dual-row IMS bearings.
The one on the right is the OEM bearing
The one on the left is an OEM bearing that has been shaved-to-size for the DOF.
As you can see, it is shaved down to the edge of the circlip channel.
[i83.photobucket.com]
Mistake (BIG) number 1 ... having installed the DOF Kit with the outer seal intact.
The DOF was just going to cool down the race but oil was never going to get into the balls.
Whoever did the installation did not read the supplied instructions which clearly state that the bearings outer seal needs to be removed before the DOF flange is installed.
Another assumption I will make is that this engine was rebuilt, or at least had the head(s) worked on before the DOF was installed.
When you have a newly rebuilt engine (no oil in the galleys) you have to have the head plug in place so that the pump can build up pressure and fill all of the oil passages including those to the lifters, cams, etc.
Installing the DOF line is like having the plug open, therefore oil pressure won't build up, or will build up very slowly.
If the OP would have re-connected the DOF oil line after the galleys filled up the engine would have been quiet. and that would have ended the issue.
If the OP would have called the supplier, we would have guided him though the correct steps so that he could have corrected the car's issues at minimal cost to his customer.
Instead, he chose to not to do so, publishing a lot of mis-information on the forums and sourcing a competitor's part at his customer's expense.
All of this is just very weird.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2014 09:48PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
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