Re: Please do not use Seafoam... |  |  |
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I currently have about 65000 miles on car,i have owned it for about 20000 off those.Up until now it has run great,i change the oil
every 7000 miles with 5/40,its almost due for a change now.I noticed lately that when the car is stone cold or not driven since previous day
that on startup there is a knocking noise coming from the motor which is pretty loud,definately not a light ticking that i get from time to time with lifters.The
noise will gradually disappear after about qtr mile or maybe a couple minutes,and wont return the rest off the day,car needs to be stone cold.I pulled
the serp belt to eliminate all the pulleys,water pump ect and the noise is definately coming from crank pulley area,there r no leaks anywear.This is definately not
a normal noise and is pretty loud,if i rev the motor u cant hear it its more pronounced at idle,i am pretty concerned.Can anyone give me some ideas.The crank pullu seems to
spin with no woobles and bolt is tight.anyone.thx
every 7000 miles with 5/40,its almost due for a change now.I noticed lately that when the car is stone cold or not driven since previous day
that on startup there is a knocking noise coming from the motor which is pretty loud,definately not a light ticking that i get from time to time with lifters.The
noise will gradually disappear after about qtr mile or maybe a couple minutes,and wont return the rest off the day,car needs to be stone cold.I pulled
the serp belt to eliminate all the pulleys,water pump ect and the noise is definately coming from crank pulley area,there r no leaks anywear.This is definately not
a normal noise and is pretty loud,if i rev the motor u cant hear it its more pronounced at idle,i am pretty concerned.Can anyone give me some ideas.The crank pullu seems to
spin with no woobles and bolt is tight.anyone.thx
| Are you sure it is coming from inside the engine?.... MarcW - 9 years ago |
You need to get the car safely in the air and start it and be ready to listen and pinpoint/confirm where the noise is coming from.
Before you do this if you want you can remove the serpentine belt and start the engine and let it idle without the belt. If you hear the noise the odds are higher it is coming from inside the engine. If you do not hear the noise put the belt on and start the engine cold engine and confirm the noise is back.
If you do the belt off test be sure you note the correct routing of the belt and the direction it is running so you can install it just the way it was before. Or if the belt is due just replace it. Still have to route it correctly though.
While you have the belt off give all the accessory drives a thorough check for any play. I had a bit of noise -- more a rumbling rather than a knocking from my Boxster -- which proved to be the water pump.
Might mention even if you hear the noise with the belt removed the noise may not be from inside the engine. I could have sworn my Boxster's engine was knocking but it proved to be a converter with a loose brick. However, the loose brick buzzed quite a bit. It would be unlikely I think a loose brick could account for the knocking and not buzz, but there is always hope.
Just on a hunch, since it is due you might change the oil and filter and see if the fresh oil changes the noise. Also, what oil are you running? I am not looking for an oil debate but I will point out there have been a few owners who report using off the reservation oils -- I recall one in particular: Turbo Diesel oil -- and while the engine was quiet for a while after several thousand miles the engine was noisy again.
My advice would be dump the oil filter housing oil and filter element out into a *clean* drain pan. I do not think you'll spot anything but you might. (I don't think you will because if the noise is coming from inside the engine it is probably not the infamous IMSB.)
Another thing you can do is catch a good sample of oil and send it out for analysis. If it comes back with high levels of bearing metals in the oil... (The best oil sample is one from the middle of the drain stream. Not the earliest oil and not the dregs either. And definitely not the oil from the filter housing.)
Do what you can to pinpoint where the noise is coming from. As soon as you are sure where it is coming from it is a bit easier to determine what you do next.
Before you do this if you want you can remove the serpentine belt and start the engine and let it idle without the belt. If you hear the noise the odds are higher it is coming from inside the engine. If you do not hear the noise put the belt on and start the engine cold engine and confirm the noise is back.
If you do the belt off test be sure you note the correct routing of the belt and the direction it is running so you can install it just the way it was before. Or if the belt is due just replace it. Still have to route it correctly though.
While you have the belt off give all the accessory drives a thorough check for any play. I had a bit of noise -- more a rumbling rather than a knocking from my Boxster -- which proved to be the water pump.
Might mention even if you hear the noise with the belt removed the noise may not be from inside the engine. I could have sworn my Boxster's engine was knocking but it proved to be a converter with a loose brick. However, the loose brick buzzed quite a bit. It would be unlikely I think a loose brick could account for the knocking and not buzz, but there is always hope.
Just on a hunch, since it is due you might change the oil and filter and see if the fresh oil changes the noise. Also, what oil are you running? I am not looking for an oil debate but I will point out there have been a few owners who report using off the reservation oils -- I recall one in particular: Turbo Diesel oil -- and while the engine was quiet for a while after several thousand miles the engine was noisy again.
My advice would be dump the oil filter housing oil and filter element out into a *clean* drain pan. I do not think you'll spot anything but you might. (I don't think you will because if the noise is coming from inside the engine it is probably not the infamous IMSB.)
Another thing you can do is catch a good sample of oil and send it out for analysis. If it comes back with high levels of bearing metals in the oil... (The best oil sample is one from the middle of the drain stream. Not the earliest oil and not the dregs either. And definitely not the oil from the filter housing.)
Do what you can to pinpoint where the noise is coming from. As soon as you are sure where it is coming from it is a bit easier to determine what you do next.
| Please do not use Seafoam... MarcW - 9 years ago |
Not in the gasoline and certainly not in the oil.
No good will come of it and it could cause harm.
Why?
Well from its contents.
The major component is "pale oil" CAS # 64742-54-7 which makes up of between 40 and 60% by weight of Seafoam.
What is 64742-54-7? It a complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C20 through C50 and produces a finished oil of at least 100 SUS at 100.degree.F (19cSt at 40.degree.C). It contains a relatively large proportion of saturated hydrocarbons.
Pretty much the same base oil as is used in the manufacture of a number of oils.
Next comes "naphtha", CAS # 64742-49-0; and this makes up between 25 and 35 % of Seafoam. This is a feedstock for high octane gasoline and can be turned into a fuel for camp stoves, lighter fluid and a cleaner.
Third on the list: IPA. CAS # 67-63-0. Seafoam contains 10 to 20% of this stuff. What is this stuff? Isopropyl alcohol. This is widely as a solvent and as a cleaning fluid, especially for dissolving oils.
Dissolving oils? Not what I think I'd want to use in my Porsche engine's oil.
Really, your engine is not sludged up or in need of any cleaner or oil system flush. Any approved oil is a high detergent oil and has done all it can to keep solids suspended so they can be filtered out or drained out at oil change time provided you changed the oil at reasonable intervals.
Getting this noise sorted is job one. If after you get this noise sorted if you want to do a fuel system clean use a bottle of Techron as per directions. This will clean the fuel system and remove engine deposits.
Now back to the knocking noise.
Change the oil and filter. (BTW, while Motul oil is a good oil I vaguely recall that it is an oil that does not like long drain intervals.) Do as I suggested and dump the oil filter housing oil and the filter element into a *clean* drain pan. You do not want to see any substantial amount of any debris in this oil or in the filter element. If you do then that could be a clue. I'm thinking say you found rubber like pale green bits of material. This could be from a failing chain tensioner which suggests then the knocking is due to an insufficiently tensioned chain.
Knocking is not a symptom of an oil pump problem unless for some reason the oil pump is not supplying sufficient oil pressure.
I really don't believe the oil pump is at fault here but if you suspect the oil pump the proper thing to do is to test the oil pressure. The oil pressure would have to be pretty low at cold idle for the engine to knock due to lack of oil pressure. You would also hear valve lifter noise which you do not report hearing.
Don't want to get your hopes up but I recall that some MY cars that the oil pump could be responsible for a ticking sound. Well, not the oil pump per se but something in the vicinity of the oil pump. There is a TSB: TSB (ENU #1726) issued by Porsche in February 2006 for the replacement of the control piston in the oil pump (997.107.125.01 and 996.107.123.50 for the seal).
Another source of the noise is the dual mass flywheel. These on occasion go bad and can create a knocking sound. This is why it is critical you identify just where the noise is coming from.
If the engine is determined to be knocking internally this is a condition that requires expert diagnosis and expert attention to address. Even if I or anyone else correctly guesses what is going on someone is going to have to get his hands dirty to fix the problem.
No good will come of it and it could cause harm.
Why?
Well from its contents.
The major component is "pale oil" CAS # 64742-54-7 which makes up of between 40 and 60% by weight of Seafoam.
What is 64742-54-7? It a complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C20 through C50 and produces a finished oil of at least 100 SUS at 100.degree.F (19cSt at 40.degree.C). It contains a relatively large proportion of saturated hydrocarbons.
Pretty much the same base oil as is used in the manufacture of a number of oils.
Next comes "naphtha", CAS # 64742-49-0; and this makes up between 25 and 35 % of Seafoam. This is a feedstock for high octane gasoline and can be turned into a fuel for camp stoves, lighter fluid and a cleaner.
Third on the list: IPA. CAS # 67-63-0. Seafoam contains 10 to 20% of this stuff. What is this stuff? Isopropyl alcohol. This is widely as a solvent and as a cleaning fluid, especially for dissolving oils.
Dissolving oils? Not what I think I'd want to use in my Porsche engine's oil.
Really, your engine is not sludged up or in need of any cleaner or oil system flush. Any approved oil is a high detergent oil and has done all it can to keep solids suspended so they can be filtered out or drained out at oil change time provided you changed the oil at reasonable intervals.
Getting this noise sorted is job one. If after you get this noise sorted if you want to do a fuel system clean use a bottle of Techron as per directions. This will clean the fuel system and remove engine deposits.
Now back to the knocking noise.
Change the oil and filter. (BTW, while Motul oil is a good oil I vaguely recall that it is an oil that does not like long drain intervals.) Do as I suggested and dump the oil filter housing oil and the filter element into a *clean* drain pan. You do not want to see any substantial amount of any debris in this oil or in the filter element. If you do then that could be a clue. I'm thinking say you found rubber like pale green bits of material. This could be from a failing chain tensioner which suggests then the knocking is due to an insufficiently tensioned chain.
Knocking is not a symptom of an oil pump problem unless for some reason the oil pump is not supplying sufficient oil pressure.
I really don't believe the oil pump is at fault here but if you suspect the oil pump the proper thing to do is to test the oil pressure. The oil pressure would have to be pretty low at cold idle for the engine to knock due to lack of oil pressure. You would also hear valve lifter noise which you do not report hearing.
Don't want to get your hopes up but I recall that some MY cars that the oil pump could be responsible for a ticking sound. Well, not the oil pump per se but something in the vicinity of the oil pump. There is a TSB: TSB (ENU #1726) issued by Porsche in February 2006 for the replacement of the control piston in the oil pump (997.107.125.01 and 996.107.123.50 for the seal).
Another source of the noise is the dual mass flywheel. These on occasion go bad and can create a knocking sound. This is why it is critical you identify just where the noise is coming from.
If the engine is determined to be knocking internally this is a condition that requires expert diagnosis and expert attention to address. Even if I or anyone else correctly guesses what is going on someone is going to have to get his hands dirty to fix the problem.
| Re: Please do not use Seafoam... moresquirt - 9 years ago |
Well i just changed out the oil,nothing in the filter and the oil looked actually pretty good coming out,nothing in the canister either.
My car was manufactured in march 06 Finland so it probably got the update u mention,then again.I am going to let the car sit over nite and see how it sounds first thing tomorrow morning.Something maybe worth noting is the knock is only herd with a stone cold motor BUT i took the car for a quick run before changing the oil so the engine was up to temp then i changed the oil,when i started up the car about an hr later i herd the knock clearly which was the first time with a warm motor,obviously the oil wasent warm.I usually get a light for a couple seconds on start up showing low oil pressure and this time was no different.I find it strange that it i got the knock with a warm motor this time.Should that tell me anything.Now i am really leaning toward a problem relating to the oil pump but i could be way off here.Just trying to narrow things down before possibly taking it in to a shop.Thx for the advise
My car was manufactured in march 06 Finland so it probably got the update u mention,then again.I am going to let the car sit over nite and see how it sounds first thing tomorrow morning.Something maybe worth noting is the knock is only herd with a stone cold motor BUT i took the car for a quick run before changing the oil so the engine was up to temp then i changed the oil,when i started up the car about an hr later i herd the knock clearly which was the first time with a warm motor,obviously the oil wasent warm.I usually get a light for a couple seconds on start up showing low oil pressure and this time was no different.I find it strange that it i got the knock with a warm motor this time.Should that tell me anything.Now i am really leaning toward a problem relating to the oil pump but i could be way off here.Just trying to narrow things down before possibly taking it in to a shop.Thx for the advise
| I would think about... grant - 9 years ago |
valve tapping - which tends to occur on a cold motor when first started. All my Audis did/do this, one boxster does. Mostly harmless so long as it goes away soon.
An actual mechanical tap from an exhaust or ?? striking some other external part -a shield, mounting etc. Both of mine do this and always have ( and both are older cars that have had major parts out and in many times)
The location of such noises can be hard to pinpoint since they can travel through the metal and be radiated by a different part...
Agree that if you DO suspect lubrication, the first thing to do is measure that lubrication - pressure.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
An actual mechanical tap from an exhaust or ?? striking some other external part -a shield, mounting etc. Both of mine do this and always have ( and both are older cars that have had major parts out and in many times)
The location of such noises can be hard to pinpoint since they can travel through the metal and be radiated by a different part...
Agree that if you DO suspect lubrication, the first thing to do is measure that lubrication - pressure.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| I do not recall you mentioning a low oil pressure light persisting for a while after engine start... MarcW - 9 years ago |
That suggests a lack of oil pressure at least for a while.
Know I understand why you have been talking about the oil pump being at fault.
The oil pump is probably not at fault. These are pretty basic/simple, just two gears in mesh. As long as the pump gears are turning the pump's working.
However, there is an oil pressure relief valve to direct oil back to the pump when the oil pressure is too high, such as would be the case at cold start. If this is hanging up this could account for the knocking you report.
I would not assume the car left the factory with the update. Even if it did the device may have suffered a failure.
You really need to get the car to a qualified shop and have this looked into. We can talk about this all day but it will take someone at the car to do what needs to be done, which is probably check the oil pressure.
Know I understand why you have been talking about the oil pump being at fault.
The oil pump is probably not at fault. These are pretty basic/simple, just two gears in mesh. As long as the pump gears are turning the pump's working.
However, there is an oil pressure relief valve to direct oil back to the pump when the oil pressure is too high, such as would be the case at cold start. If this is hanging up this could account for the knocking you report.
I would not assume the car left the factory with the update. Even if it did the device may have suffered a failure.
You really need to get the car to a qualified shop and have this looked into. We can talk about this all day but it will take someone at the car to do what needs to be done, which is probably check the oil pressure.
MikenOH - 9 years ago |
Lifter clatter:
On our old 987 2.7L we would get the occasional lifter clatter when cold .The story I got from the tech was that Porsche lifters had very small orifices to allow oil entry to "pump up" the lifter; if the oil didn't get into the lifter in sufficient quantity, the collapsed lifter would make a deep tapping noise.The clatter was very common on these cars, especially if they weren't driven often. I can remember not hearing anything at start up but hearing it after a 20 minute drive and actually still might have some video or trying to pin point the noise. Not a pounding but louder and a lower pitch than the typical valve train noises The noises eventually subsided when I went to Lubro Moly 5W-40--FWIW.
Oil Relief valve spring:
IIRC early 987's had a recall with this part-05's and early 06's; might be a good idea to get checked.
On our old 987 2.7L we would get the occasional lifter clatter when cold .The story I got from the tech was that Porsche lifters had very small orifices to allow oil entry to "pump up" the lifter; if the oil didn't get into the lifter in sufficient quantity, the collapsed lifter would make a deep tapping noise.The clatter was very common on these cars, especially if they weren't driven often. I can remember not hearing anything at start up but hearing it after a 20 minute drive and actually still might have some video or trying to pin point the noise. Not a pounding but louder and a lower pitch than the typical valve train noises The noises eventually subsided when I went to Lubro Moly 5W-40--FWIW.
Oil Relief valve spring:
IIRC early 987's had a recall with this part-05's and early 06's; might be a good idea to get checked.
| Re: A couple of things moresquirt - 9 years ago |
Well i started up the car this morning totally cold after an oil change yesterday and no change,still knocking coming from crank pulley,guess its going in,
it may be nothing but its definately not the lifters or pulley related and its pretty loud so being proactive about maintenance i believe that if i do nothing
and it ends up creating a much bigger problem i will be kicking myself.Thx for all replys and guidence,i will report back after i get it looked at.ps the oil pump
pressure light only came on for a few seconds after the oil change on start up BUT the motor was warm and it did knock,it previously only knocked with a stone cold motor thats why i think its
pump related,something hanging up as stated above possibly.
it may be nothing but its definately not the lifters or pulley related and its pretty loud so being proactive about maintenance i believe that if i do nothing
and it ends up creating a much bigger problem i will be kicking myself.Thx for all replys and guidence,i will report back after i get it looked at.ps the oil pump
pressure light only came on for a few seconds after the oil change on start up BUT the motor was warm and it did knock,it previously only knocked with a stone cold motor thats why i think its
pump related,something hanging up as stated above possibly.
I have decided to try changing out the OIL PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE ASSEMBLY,which looks to include the shaft,seal,spring and piston.
Its less than $40 and i believe the spring is lost some tension plus the piston could be worn or dirty and hanging up.If this is not the problem then its definately off to the dealer at $175/hr tx in.It cant hurt to try.Can someone advise what the torque would be on the shaft bolt,plus will the piston come out easily or is there a
special way to extract it.Thx warren .
Its less than $40 and i believe the spring is lost some tension plus the piston could be worn or dirty and hanging up.If this is not the problem then its definately off to the dealer at $175/hr tx in.It cant hurt to try.Can someone advise what the torque would be on the shaft bolt,plus will the piston come out easily or is there a
special way to extract it.Thx warren .
MikenOH - 9 years ago |
| mystery solved,thx to everyone that posted! moresquirt - 9 years ago |
Well as mentioned above,i decided to order the relief valve assembly,problem solved ,no more knocking.What i did notice when i replaced all 4 parts,piston,spring,seal and bolt.Everything looked the same
BUT the new spring was approx 1/16 " longer.The old spring was probably weak and had sacked slightly,no different than a snowmobile spring in a clutch.Dosent sound like much but i guess at idle
with a cold motor the pressure only being 1.5 psi it wouldent take much change in spring pressure or preload to alter the setting .Another word,i really only needed to change the spring,everything else mic,d out the same as the original kit.
BUT the new spring was approx 1/16 " longer.The old spring was probably weak and had sacked slightly,no different than a snowmobile spring in a clutch.Dosent sound like much but i guess at idle
with a cold motor the pressure only being 1.5 psi it wouldent take much change in spring pressure or preload to alter the setting .Another word,i really only needed to change the spring,everything else mic,d out the same as the original kit.
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