Re: Yes, I'm a PCA member and would get IIRC a 15% discount on parts, including the starter. Next week..

Managed to stop in at the dealer. Tech believes the starter overrun clutch is dragging. I asked about getting just this clutch cleaned and greased or just replaced, and he said they can't get parts for the starter. It is a new starter or nothing, at least at the dealer. However, he said there is a guy in town who specializes in rebuilding starters and according to another tech -- who was away this week getting training -- this starter guy does a real good job.

So just to get this out of the way a new starter is around $1000. I didn't get a firm quote but over the years I've gathered other similar sized hardware like the alternator, A/C compressor, and power steering pump, all go for $1000 new (or more). Labor to remove and install is around 4 hours. The intake manifold has to be removed. Labor rate is $165/hour. The tech noted I was still getting the old labor rate of $150/hour. So roughly a new starter is $1600.

However, the tech suggested I have him remove the starter and then the rebuilder will pick up the starter -- or the dealer delivers the starter to the rebuilder -- and get the old starter rebuilt. The tech says this guy can get all the parts/kits/etc to rebuild starters for a large number of cars and the word around is he does a real good job. I believe the tech said he specializes in just starters. The tech didn't know the cost but believes it would be in the $250 range. Thus for probably less than $1000 I can get the existing starter removed, rebuilt, and installed. I like the fact a Porsche tech is going to remove the starter and then install it again after it is rebuilt.

I haven't taken the car to have this done yet as I have a lot of other things to do today but I think maybe Tuesday I can drop the car off and get this taken care of.

Unless I just continue to drive the car until the noise gets worse. The last few days I didn't hear the noise but it has been a bit warmer. But today I hear it loud and clear when I first started the engine this AM and again when I went out at noon. It is cooler now -- after the big rain storm has moved through -- but not that much cooler. I bet if I had the car in say 32F ambient temperature overnight the starter overrun clutch would make a heck of a racket.

The clear choice is whether the warranty on the work done by the Porsche dealer to install a new starter is worth the $750 price difference. I frankly don't know which way I would go. I guess I would check the details on the warranty.

pay. The starter is in otherwise good shape. Other than this overrun clutch noise the starter has been problem free now for over 287K miles. From the sound of it this rebuilder does rebuilds right. He rebuilds each starter rather than rebuild a batch from a bin of old and mixed up parts and new parts. This type of a rebuild often has the rebuilt unit worn out as the mixing of the old parts from other starts results in an increase in wear.

I am leaning towards having the starter rebuilt. One to save money but also to see how it works out. I hope I am not disappointed.

Are you paying the rebuilder directly or paying the total price to the dealer? What I am implying is that the dealer is assuming responsibility/liability by recommending this expert. I would go that route. It seems odd to me that a Porsche dealer would allow anything but a new OEM part. You have some recourse in the event that it does not work. Good luck.

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Tony in Whittier
Are you paying the rebuilder directly or paying the total price to the dealer? What I am implying is that the dealer is assuming responsibility/liability by recommending this expert. I would go that route. It seems odd to me that a Porsche dealer would allow anything but a new OEM part. You have some recourse in the event that it does not work. Good luck.

The relationship is a casual one. The tech who I talked to the other day didn't know the rebuilder personally. Another tech away on training knows of him. This other tech came from another dealer (Honda IIRC) where I guess starters needing rebuilding is more common.

The dealer and its service does not assume any responsibility for the rebuild. Before I would use this starter rebuilder guy I would have to know more. I will talk to the tech that knows of him next week -- the tech is due back from training and will be back to work Monday.

Oh, I pay the rebuilder directly.

I don't see this as being any different from the techs telling me once in a while they'll get a car in with a bad Tip and as per the owner's request remove the Tip so it can be picked up by a Tip rebuilder and then when done the techs install the Tip back into the car.

In this case the car's owner pays for the Tip R&R at the dealer, but he has also worked out a price for his Tip's rebuild with the Tip rebuilder.

'course, today at a cold start the starter was quiet.

That's worth a 10% discount on parts. I don't know if you factored that in to the $1000 or not. Also you might think about just letting it go until the starter dies. Whether that's reasonable depends on if you plan on taking it on long trips away from a Porsche dealer or not.

when the tech returns from training I'll speak with him about this starter rebuilder. At the same time I'll get a hard quote on the cost of a new starter just to have by way of comparison.

Marc

Partsgeek has a rebuilt Bosch starter for less than $170. I put one in and its worked fine for well over a year now. By the way, they are killing you on the labor. The book rate does include the labor to take off the intake manifold, but its really easy to repplace the atarter without taking to take off the manifold by going in behind the seats with a long extension to get at the one bolt thats difficult. Took me less than 2 hours to do the whole thing and I'm by no means a quick wrench. They will make lots of profit on that job.

[986forum.com]

starter. It is a Bosch starter (Bosch makes the "Porsche" starter) and is supposedly the same starter sans the Porsche premium and as a result retails for less than 1/3rd the cost of the Porsche starter. I have to wonder if is really is the "same"? But the tech has experience with this alternative starters and as a result I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and believe it is the same, just not priced so dearly as the genuine article.

Labor is around 3 hours. The intake has to be loosened/moved out the way to remove the starter.

I do not have to have this fixed right away. The tech said the sleeve the gear slides on as it engages/disengages the flywheel ring gear is dry, the lube had dried, and will drag/fail to disengage off and on but can do this a long time before it needs to be replaced. I asked about just lubing it and he said the starter still has to come out and go back in. The gear or starter proper often fails shortly after this anyway so it is a temp work around/fix at best. I think I'll just replace the starter, especially given the car has over 288K miles and that is the original starter.

Anyhow, I've got too much on my plate the rest of the year to worry about this right now. I'll just continue to drive the car until the starter is noisy more often than not in warm and cool and cold weather.

Oh, I forgot to ask him about the starter rebuilder in the area, but with the alternative starter available for a substantial discount compared to the Porsche branded starter I think I'll just go with a new starter. Next year.

post the Bosch part number so others may benefit from your research.

Why would they engineer two? Why would they have double the part numbers, and hence half the run lengths and twice the inventory of components? Its not like they are segmenting the market with a hgiher priced "good" unit and a lower priced "cheap" one. You didn't get a choice. You got "bosch that fits"

In fact, i suspect that the same basic starter, maybe identical, maybe castings with holes in different places, is sold to multiple manufacturers, and all are essentially the same. Mating holes here and there, shaft length this and that, etc.

Commonality is the name of the game for many reasons - cost, complexity, design effort, documentation, repairs, and sanity.

Might Porsche demands something unique? Yea, maybe. But RFPs often request things that i shake my head at and wonder, and they rarely end well.

Its a little different for components that often have some adjustments - e.g. shocks where valving is typically customized and changed regularly - even year to year, or tires where small compound differences achieve different trade offs.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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grant
Why would they engineer two? Why would they have double the part numbers, and hence half the run lengths and twice the inventory of components? Its not like they are segmenting the market with a hgiher priced "good" unit and a lower priced "cheap" one. You didn't get a choice. You got "bosch that fits"

In fact, i suspect that the same basic starter, maybe identical, maybe castings with holes in different places, is sold to multiple manufacturers, and all are essentially the same. Mating holes here and there, shaft length this and that, etc.

Commonality is the name of the game for many reasons - cost, complexity, design effort, documentation, repairs, and sanity.

Might Porsche demands something unique? Yea, maybe. But RFPs often request things that i shake my head at and wonder, and they rarely end well.

Its a little different for components that often have some adjustments - e.g. shocks where valving is typically customized and changed regularly - even year to year, or tires where small compound differences achieve different trade offs.

Grant

to determine the differences between the two starters other than if I wanted to perform some basic measurements and comparisons between the old and the new. But as long as the less expensive one fits into the space available and bolts up as it is supposed to and connects to the car's electrical system as it is supposed to that takes care of the mechanical/electrical compatibility.

What is harder to know is will the less expensive starter deliver the same performance as the more expensive one has delivered? Will this new starter have the same robustness? Does it have the same hardware internally -- copper wiring, number of windings, bearings, etc. -- to deliver an acceptable service life? Or am I going to get ensnared in a situation where it is replace the starter every other year?

When the time comes I'll probably opt for the less expensive starter. If I can arrange it I'll take pics of the new starter and the old one side by side. I can't weigh them but it would be nice to know they both have the same heft.

BTW, I believe while Porsche tries to utilize "off the shelf parts" (unlike VW which has a rep of going it alone and making some of its own more common items) Porsche could very well spec a more durable starter. While the basic dimensions are the same, the bearings might be of higher quality, there could be more copper, heavier windings, and other things that while the same basic casting and other metal hardware is the same there are real and significant differences between the off the shelf starter and the starter specifically for Porsches.

But as I mentioned above I'm not qualified to determine that, so I'll just have the less expensive starter installed when the time comes and see how it plays out.

Recall the financial trouble they were in, they were lucky if they could get a supplier to accept their order for a standard part when they designed the 996/986.

I've used Bosch parts without the Porsche boxes and stenciling for several electronic or sensor items. And sometimes, when the Porsche part that was original to the car was removed it has the Bosch part number still visible as in the case of the O2 sensors.

.. cost reduction and standardization. They actually partnered with Toyota, and took acres of cost out of the chassis. One of the decision, which was bittersweet, was to share something like 65% of parts between 986 and 996. this gave the obvious economies of scale and inventory turns benefits (folks who argue that its possible to do otherwise have never dealt with manufacturing costs....at least not successfully), reduced development cost and time, but also led to criticisms that $100k 911s were, from the front and behind the wheel indistinguishable from lesser boxsters ( Porsches in panties per the Sporanos).

In fact you can not only see the commonality across the line, but also the commonality of 9x6 parts with Audis and upper end VWs of about ~12 years earlier. For example, the switchgear in both my 986s is IDENTICAL to that in my 1984 Audi 4000s quattro. They upgraded to vastly better switchgear in the 1985 model and again in 1991. Boxster's got that stuff mostly with the 987 revamp in 2005.

So its pretty clear that if they can take an off-the-shelf part, they do. and if they can use it across the lineup, they do. Oh, and yes, if you will pay them $400 to paint your speedo dial yellow to match your toenails, they will. Mine match, don;t ya know?

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com