A snow adaptation; must make for a rough, noisy ride though:

Many years ago, Patrick Bedard cemented to me how clearly he "gets it" when i read his article in Card and Driver: "The Slow Car as a Moving Experience".

In short, he compared driving the then current Ferrari 308 to driving the also then current Fiat X 1/9, both Italian, mid-engined sports cars. he concluded that the Fiat was more fun to drive on th street because the majority of its acceleration and grip could be used safely and often even within the bounds of the law. On the contrary the Ferrari could exceed the double-nickel in first gear, and anything legal was boring.

In general, I concur.

Over Thanksgiving weekend i put snow tires on all my cars. Typically, i put effective snow tires on - smaller, higher sidewall, narrower tread, and, of course, soft with a high void-to-rubber ration and lots of sipes (yes spell check, sipes is a real word). All of this makes them squishy, low grip, and yet very good at telegraphic problems long before they are serious for a capable driver. Slip angles go to [big], noise erupts, sidewalls begin to slop over, etc.

I've been tooling around, maybe a bit more energetically than i should, in both cars so equipped. The track car slumbers. Its really interesting how much fun one can have i a car with snows. Or anything like it. Its also fun to drive the base 986 since being quick means revving it out, WOT. Yee-haw. Wait, did that SUV just pass me? Redline here i come.

The point is that if driving is the fun activity, e don't need 40 series tires, 300 hp or PDK. Yes, they all make one faster, but they take away the sport.

viva the cheap, but hgihly tactile sports car.

And Merry Christmas all. May Santa (Satan rearranged as the church lady noted) bring you all skinny snow tires. With V speed ratings of course.

Funny, come spring i'll celebrate the wonderful responsiveness of real tires. Isn;t diversity great?

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Didn't drive car car much in the snow when I was just starting out. (Drove a motorcycle though.) But I spent some time on gravei roads and one can have nearly as much fun on gravel as he can on snow. The only difference is gravel roads are noisier. But one can experience all the joy of having a car going sideways with a lot of luck and not much speed.

Growing up in Buffalo, with lots of gravel roads around, I would beg to differ with you Mark - gravel and snow are very, very different! -- But perhaps not so different as warm, dry hard Macadam pavement from either one.

Can anyone find winter tires for 17" wheels for an '05 Boxster? Tire Rack seems to have gone blank on them.

first, i greatly prefer dirt >. gravel >. snow. Why? As the surface medium has less and less grip, you get less and less warning, and less and less opportunity to recover when all goes away. With lousy tires on asphalt, the slip angle rises, the tire screams, an then sorta lets loose - with lots of warning and easy to regain control.

Now let's think snow. Little slip angle ( not enough force to deform the tire), little noise (not enough force to make noise, plus snow muffles everything) and very, very hard to recover unless its deep.

Snow is interesting. There are so many kinds. Warm snow - around thre freezing point is very slippery and hard to drive on. On the other hand snow at, say, 10degF of lower is like sandpaper and has grit, texture and some traction. yet it shears away easily so you can have fun without damage to tire, car etc (unless you lose it and hit something - dont do that!)

I'd love to have access to a large parking lot just covered with maybe 2" of packed, cold, snow. what a car control clinic!

Sometimes i do this in the church lot own the street. Once the police chased me out. Another time they joined the fun :-)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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grant

I'd love to have access to a large parking lot just covered with maybe 2" of packed, cold, snow. what a car control clinic!

Grant

You've got that right. Before Sunday shopping (1994 and earlier here in Ontario), on snowy Sundays, I'd get out to a mall parking lot, put the car into a sideways slide and then recover. Do that over and over and you begin to get a real feel of what to do to get the car out of skid. It also allowed me to practice threshold braking with pre anti lock brake cars. Car control clinic, you bet. Oh, and it was fun too.

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grant
I'd love to have access to a large parking lot just covered with maybe 2" of packed, cold, snow. what a car control clinic!

Back in Western PA, a very depressed part of the US, the local mall doesn't bother plowing the back parking lots anymore. I had a ball one Xmas a few years back in my Boxster. Just a ball!

One year, I had just purchased a Lexus IS250 AWD for my wife and wanted her to learn how to handle a car in snow.... so I pulled in and she refused to try it out. Just refused. I wanted her just to turn and brake hard... just learn. She was adamant, she was scared and didn't want to do it. Sure enough, about three weeks later back in Philly, she locked up the wheels and took out the entire side of the car. Good job Elizabeth. Her friends were upset with my strong reaction saying "it was just an accident".... I saw it differently...... The accident she had was in such slow motion that the anti-lock brakes didn't engage and just locked up.... I am convinced with just a little bit of practicing, she or anyone could have avoided the accident. Indeed, as we sat there waiting for the tow truck, plenty of cars came by the same curve without a problem. She grew up in Texas and snow was new to her....... hiding your head under a pillow does nothing and could be dangerous.

So...... my first day at a track, Summit Point, I had an instructor and we went on the wetted skid pad there. I immediately spun the car...... I sat there stupidly......... I thought, "crap I know how to do this, I grew up on snow... with a beer in one hand, something burning in the other, and my knee on the wheel.... sliding in control through curves". I hit the gas and in short order, I was able to ..well almost... get the car completely around the circle in a power slide no problems. The instructor said something like "you must have grown up in the Midwest". Not bragging here, as any teenager growing up in a snowy area can do this instinctively. Seriously, we were all good at this.

Peace
Bruce in Philly



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2014 12:20PM by Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S). (view changes)

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Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S)

Not bragging here, as any teenager growing up in a snowy area can do this instinctively. Seriously, we were all good at this.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Again, I totally agree. It's being able to control the car instinctively as you said. The only way you get this instinct is through practice. It's all about feeling what the car is doing. You don't have a chance to have that feel if you're panicked.

its one thing to do it on a wet skidpad where only my ego can get damaged.

Its quite another to have right reflex when you lose it at hgih speed on a track with a wall approaching or in traffic or another high stakes situation.

My point is to draw a big, bold underline under "instinctively" rather than " i know in theory what to do"

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

[www.porsche.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 10:34PM by Laz. (view changes)

" viva the cheap, but hgihly tactile sports car "

Grant, I think you are totally on target. And that's really the problem with Boxsters -- especially the new ones.

I've had a couple of Miatas, starting with a '90. They were a ball to drive. They were not fast and didn't corner all that hard, but they did corner neutrally and would "drift" at moderate speeds with yaw that could be controlled with the 115 hp available from the rightmost pedal. Then I got a 986 BoxsterS. Objectively, better in every way. And now I have a 981 BoxsterS. Significantly better yet in every way. But, on the street, neither were as much fun as the Miatas. They were both faster (or much faster), more secure feeling, more comfortable, safer, more of everything good -- except fun. Not as much fun.

What about on the track?

Compared to the Miatas, either Boxster is faster and more fun (with the 981 head and shoulders above the 986). But I've been driving an old Radical ProSport on the track for the last couple of years -- 1000 lbs wet with slicks and 170rwhp from a 1000cc Suzuki motorcycle engine. The Radical is MUCH faster and MUCH more fun than either Boxster.

Which begs the question, "Where does the Boxster fit?" I really don't like where this is leading me.

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yellowesty
Which begs the question, "Where does the Boxster fit?" I really don't like where this is leading me.

It is going to a competitor. I enjoy my 2009 C2S but it is no longer a sports car. As I think Jeremy Clarkson called it something like.... "A car for fat balding....". Well maybe just a bit extreme but there is no doubt about it, it is bigger, heavier, and number. Oh well....

Peace
Bruce in Philly

The 991 and 981 are terrific. I've instructed in them several time and had people who were stupid kind enough to lt me play on back roads and parking lots ( here we go again...). They just kick my 986s' collective butts, objectively. But again, i can have more fun with my 986s.

Now, there are different strokes for different folks. At the track, i get passed. A lot. One guy with this awesome Croatian / smokers accent came up to me once and said, "i was chasing you for a while, and watched most people passing you on the straights, you know Grant, it sucks to be you". Well, I guess. It is a little annoying to be trying to pedal. But its also rewarding to be pushing a car as hard as i safely can, or maybe the right word is "will". Lots of folks measure happiness in horsepower and lap times. I don't. and i guess that's the point.

If i knew "then" what i know now, its not totally clear that I'd have a Boxster. Those Miatas look pretty darn good. But then again, the Boxster is a great car for sunny days, reliable, safe, practical enough to take to Vermont, etc. try that in an MR2, S2000 or Miata. But it does raise the question...

I hear the Radical is fabulous, you lucky dog!

Oh, and at the last BoG meeting i drove Chris Mags' new totally race preppped, solid-bushing, spherical bushing CaymanR. OMG. I'm in lust.

But as Steve Martin would say...... Naaaaaaaaaa

Peace and be thankful for what we all have!

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Yep... I get it too. I grew up in the Appalachian mountains. When it snowed, there was very little clearing of the roadways. Thirty years later, this made my first autocross experience a blast, although my times suffered because I was having so much fun drifting the Boxster through the course on low-grip tires (mounted on the used car by the dealer before I bought it).

My real reason for this post is to share something I saw on an episode of Top Gear where they discussed this same fun-to-drive concept. Their pick among brand-new cars for this type of fun is the Subaru BRZ.

[www.topgear.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2014 12:52PM by Spanky. (view changes)

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Spanky
Their pick among brand-new cars for this type of fun is the Subaru BRZ.

Yep, buddy of mine purchased one of these and tracked it extensively. The both of us ripped out his suspension a few times trying out new things. There are very few real sports cars available any more and the BRZ is one of them. It is amazingly easy to work on and modify. Great handling.... just a good car. If you are serious about tracking it, you will need a few upgrades though but it is the real deal.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I had a regular routine of pivoting on the 912's front tires coming through a certain left turn at the end of a highway exit, especially when it was raining. And, man, those Alfas could dance! Starting with the 01 base Boxster, and now with the new S, I can hardly bring myself to fling them around much on public roads without thinking of causing or getting into trouble. The comparatively astronomical body/wheel replacement expenses are enough to keep me in check, too.

He did a presentation at the North Carolina Museum of Art's Porsche show, and someone asked about the now fully paved Pikes Peak road. He said (I paraphrase) while the dirt surfaces made it very difficult to keep control, the pavement allows for much higher speeds that put the cars on the ragged-edge anyway. I imagined a car flying off pretty far before heading many more feet down the mountainside.