Re: Pedro, do you know if there's a significant oil level sensor failure rate? |  |  |
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Laz - 9 years ago |
About a month ago I had the dealer do the 40k service which included changing the oil and spark plugs. Up until then I'd have to add maybe up to a quart between 5k changes, always using Mobil 1 0-40 with the A40 spec. Not to absolutely imply it had something to do with the service, but I've incrementally added oil totaling about 1 quart in 733 miles. Other than this, the car is asymptomatic: runs well, no smoke, dry tailpipes, idle pressure is the same as always, & Porsche specified no less than 51 psi at 5000 rpm. I cannot detect any external leaks: no oil on the driveway even with the fully warmed engine running for several minutes and intermittently revved. The bottom of the engine is dry, (including at the drain plug, the original of which had cracked on a previous service.) Nothing on whatever I can see of the sides including a couple of the spark/coil locations. Wherever I can feel the inside of the belly panel near the engine is dry, too. Nothing on the garage floor.
I emailed the dealer with the above information and then spoke with them on the phone. They told me as a first step to let the level drop to the "minimum" mark and bring it to them, and they'll top it off there. I imagine they'll document the mileage, and I'd hope they'll rack it to check for external leaks at least.
Been checking at every valid, level stop, and just today at 107 miles, it looks like it's down 1 increment again! As the 4 between min and max equals ≈ 1.8 quarts, this means the motor is already ≈ .45 quarts down.
Being this has been happening since the spark plug change, I've wondered about the tubes leaking, but as I've said, I see no signs of an external leak. Oil filler tube?
Anyone have any insights? Thanks, Laz.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2015 04:19PM by Laz. (view changes)
I emailed the dealer with the above information and then spoke with them on the phone. They told me as a first step to let the level drop to the "minimum" mark and bring it to them, and they'll top it off there. I imagine they'll document the mileage, and I'd hope they'll rack it to check for external leaks at least.
Been checking at every valid, level stop, and just today at 107 miles, it looks like it's down 1 increment again! As the 4 between min and max equals ≈ 1.8 quarts, this means the motor is already ≈ .45 quarts down.
Being this has been happening since the spark plug change, I've wondered about the tubes leaking, but as I've said, I see no signs of an external leak. Oil filler tube?
Anyone have any insights? Thanks, Laz.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2015 04:19PM by Laz. (view changes)
Its going somewhere... (duh). Anything else change? Happen? Sounds like a big leak, which you claim not, or a sticky ring, pretty odd in a new, clean, motor.
No sign of moisture in oil, or oil in water?
Did you double check with the dipstick (ducking!)
I used ~ 1 qt in two days on track.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
No sign of moisture in oil, or oil in water?
Did you double check with the dipstick (ducking!)
I used ~ 1 qt in two days on track.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
As far as a sticking ring, I would hope that's something audible, but the motor just makes its usual 3.4 racket. Revs great, etc. As far as other leaks, I'd think something would've made it to the ground by now, or at least there'd be oil somewhere around the engine. One quart should make quite a mess.
The only other, and far-fetched thing I can think of is a lot of the winter driving was short hops in very cold weather, so maybe cold clearances is an issue. But then again, it didn't use anywhere near this much during break-in, and now with warmer weather in the past few days, my extrapolation seems to show it's getting worse: it could be a quart down at ≈ 238 miles. And with that I'd think I'd see some blue smoke if it's an internal issue.
The silver lining is that it's still in warranty. Just hope it isn't (as it was with crank bore misalignment) a replacement motor, not that I worry about matching numbers too much.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2015 04:46PM by Laz. (view changes)
The only other, and far-fetched thing I can think of is a lot of the winter driving was short hops in very cold weather, so maybe cold clearances is an issue. But then again, it didn't use anywhere near this much during break-in, and now with warmer weather in the past few days, my extrapolation seems to show it's getting worse: it could be a quart down at ≈ 238 miles. And with that I'd think I'd see some blue smoke if it's an internal issue.
The silver lining is that it's still in warranty. Just hope it isn't (as it was with crank bore misalignment) a replacement motor, not that I worry about matching numbers too much.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2015 04:46PM by Laz. (view changes)
Laz - 9 years ago |
| Oil sensor question for Pedro Guenter in Ontario - 9 years ago |
From the description, it just seems to me that the problem Laz is describing seems to be sensor related since there doesn't seem to be any evidence of oil leak or burning. So I'm just wondering, how does the oil sensor "sense" the oil level? Is it laser, float or another method? Not sure if it's a different method between the M96 and MA1 engines, because the reading method is different.
Is there some way the sensor can "move" to get an incorrect reading? Could the software have a glitch that misinterprets the reading?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I know that some will think I'm against progress, but I wouldn't mind the weight penalty and related extra fuel consumption of one of those dipsticks to check my oil.
Is there some way the sensor can "move" to get an incorrect reading? Could the software have a glitch that misinterprets the reading?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I know that some will think I'm against progress, but I wouldn't mind the weight penalty and related extra fuel consumption of one of those dipsticks to check my oil.
| Re: Oil sensor question for Pedro Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
I agree with your diagnosis.
The oil level sensor (sender) is located on the oil pan.
This is what it looks like:
[www.jimellisporscheparts.com]
and from underneath:
Porsche part number: 958.606.160.10
Costs between $60 and $100, depending on where you purchase it.
As you can see, it shows several other part numbers from Audi/VW because this same sensor is used in the Carrera 991, Boxster and Cayman 981, Cayennes, Macans and A4,A5, A6, Q5 as well as Touaregs and a bunch of other models in the Seat/Skoda line (also owned by VW).
There has been a tendency of automatically replacing these sensors only to find out that the "problem" persists.
The "problem" is that the digital oil level gauge displays an average oil level.
The sensor sends continuous signals to the DME which averages out these data points.
When someone gets a low level signal they tend to add oil and check the level again, but because they don't drive it a bit so that the DME can average out the new level, they add more and generally overfill. Not good.
Even when reading the oil level with a PIWIS computer plugged in, you still see the last average reading.
Only the newest and latest, on-line-PIWIS tester sees an actual oil level reading without the DME's average. Sadly that reading is only available at the dealerships.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
The oil level sensor (sender) is located on the oil pan.
This is what it looks like:
[www.jimellisporscheparts.com]
and from underneath:
Porsche part number: 958.606.160.10
Costs between $60 and $100, depending on where you purchase it.
As you can see, it shows several other part numbers from Audi/VW because this same sensor is used in the Carrera 991, Boxster and Cayman 981, Cayennes, Macans and A4,A5, A6, Q5 as well as Touaregs and a bunch of other models in the Seat/Skoda line (also owned by VW).
There has been a tendency of automatically replacing these sensors only to find out that the "problem" persists.
The "problem" is that the digital oil level gauge displays an average oil level.
The sensor sends continuous signals to the DME which averages out these data points.
When someone gets a low level signal they tend to add oil and check the level again, but because they don't drive it a bit so that the DME can average out the new level, they add more and generally overfill. Not good.
Even when reading the oil level with a PIWIS computer plugged in, you still see the last average reading.
Only the newest and latest, on-line-PIWIS tester sees an actual oil level reading without the DME's average. Sadly that reading is only available at the dealerships.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Oil sensor question for Pedro Guenter in Ontario - 9 years ago |
Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
.
When someone gets a low level signal they tend to add oil and check the level again, but because they don't drive it a bit so that the DME can average out the new level, they add more and generally overfill. Not good.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
This might happen with other models, but with the 981, you can't check the oil level once the trunk has been opened. After you close the trunk, the engine has to be run for a while and be at operating temperature before you can get another reading. The manual also suggests parking the car on level ground and waiting about a minute after shutting off the engine before take a reading. At least that's how it works on mine. I've had to change my habit and check the oil after I've driven the car. I've always preferred to check my oil BEFORE I start out on a drive.
It does seem to "remember" the oil level from when the motor was shut off on a previous drive, as long as you don't open the trunk.
Thanks for the pictures. I was wondering how it was measured.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2015 11:26AM by Guenter in Ontario. (view changes)
Laz - 9 years ago |
Some years ago it was a revelation in finding out oil should be measured hot, and after "approximately one minute" to allow for drain-down. I read something official from Porsche saying cold oil can give a false reading because of possible water condensation adding to the volume. This made sense to me. I suppose the electronic level sensor is not subject to splash like a dip stick would. (Pull. Wipe. Reinsert. Pull again and read.)
In my case I've detected no symptoms of an overfill situation, and since the last top-up about a week ago and speaking with my dealer, I'm not adding any. Assuming the "loss" condition continues, I'll be bringing the car to them when (if?) the indicator drops to "Min." Still under warranty, and my purpose for always bringing it to them for service (other than a rear tire change, which my local shop did) it can't be said anyone else worked on the car. Post warranty is a different matter, and as with my 986, I'll have the oil changes done by the local shop.
I'm aware of the open deck lid not allowing for a readout: a message comes up on the multifunction display.
Yes, per the dealer, when oil level is checked cold, the display is showing a "snapshot" from the last hot check, not a present-moment reading. I think it would be clearer if the non-reading message would come up instead.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
In my case I've detected no symptoms of an overfill situation, and since the last top-up about a week ago and speaking with my dealer, I'm not adding any. Assuming the "loss" condition continues, I'll be bringing the car to them when (if?) the indicator drops to "Min." Still under warranty, and my purpose for always bringing it to them for service (other than a rear tire change, which my local shop did) it can't be said anyone else worked on the car. Post warranty is a different matter, and as with my 986, I'll have the oil changes done by the local shop.
I'm aware of the open deck lid not allowing for a readout: a message comes up on the multifunction display.
Yes, per the dealer, when oil level is checked cold, the display is showing a "snapshot" from the last hot check, not a present-moment reading. I think it would be clearer if the non-reading message would come up instead.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
| Re: Pedro, do you know if there's a significant oil level sensor failure rate? Pedro (Odessa, FL) - 9 years ago |
Most of the sensors being replaced are fine according to Porsche and Audi.
There's really no measurable failure rate that I'm aware of with these sensors.
Happy Boxsting,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
There's really no measurable failure rate that I'm aware of with these sensors.
Happy Boxsting,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Laz - 8 years ago |
MikenOH - 9 years ago |
... with a sensor because the vehicle owners would not use it regularly as recommended.
By installing a sensor the car now informs the driver of its oil level rather than relying on the driver to proactively check it.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
By installing a sensor the car now informs the driver of its oil level rather than relying on the driver to proactively check it.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Gary in SoFL - 9 years ago |
Laz - 9 years ago |
*NM*Quote
Gary in SoFL
If Porsche could only cure obsessive-compulsive owner disorder....
I'd much rather be afflicted with that, then be the other extreme.
Had a co-worker who had to replace the engine in his wife's minivan. She just didn't think it was too important to tell her husband that that silly red oil light was on for several weeks before the engine quit.
Gary in SoFL - 9 years ago |
Quote
Guenter in Ontario
Quote
Gary in SoFL
If Porsche could only cure obsessive-compulsive owner disorder....
I'd much rather be afflicted with that, then be the other extreme.
My dear friend, you just may be the poster child for this particular affliction.
"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
An affliction well worth having, as it makes it much less likely I'd catch a ride on the back of one of these.
| Do what the dealer says... MarcW - 9 years ago |
It is not impossible for the engine to develop an appetite for oil and the dealer I believe is thinking of this.
This would be a rare event though.
Assuming your engine hasn't developed an appetite for oil one explanation is the oil level sensor/system is not reporting the oil level accurately.
Given this possibility I would have liked to seen the dealer bring the car in and do another oil service and confirm the oil level reported by the sensor/system agrees with the known amount of oil just added to the engine under "lab" conditions.
I'm not too up on the newer engines but I have to wonder if the AOS could be acting up and allowing too much oil by while the engine is running? This would not necessarily mean the engine would smoke upon cold start or really at any other time. The AOS would just let some oil vapor past all the time and over time this would result in a drop in the oil level.
I would not advise you do this but removing the air intake tube to the throttle body and then the throttle body and checking the throttle body for signs of oil and the intake manifold walls from there on to the heads would be interesting. If there is oil found then this strongly points to the AOS.
For an engine to suddenly develop an appetite for oil requires a problem with piston/ring/cylinder sealing or valve guide/stem and seal sealing. In the case of the former one cylinder would be down on power and one plug would be discolored from the excessive oil. In the case of the latter this often makes a racket. The valve stem is loose in the guide. Even with all valve stem seals removed the engine wouldn't use that much more oil.
You report the engine is running ok, with no symptoms and no CEL. If after a long closed throttle coast down then stepping on the gas hard or taking off aggressively and banging the gear box up through the gears under hard acceleration doesn't produce any visible oil smoke -- do this with a low sun behind you to help highlight any smoke or have someone follow your car ideally filming the car -- then it doesn't appear like an engine that has developed an appetite for oil.
This would be a rare event though.
Assuming your engine hasn't developed an appetite for oil one explanation is the oil level sensor/system is not reporting the oil level accurately.
Given this possibility I would have liked to seen the dealer bring the car in and do another oil service and confirm the oil level reported by the sensor/system agrees with the known amount of oil just added to the engine under "lab" conditions.
I'm not too up on the newer engines but I have to wonder if the AOS could be acting up and allowing too much oil by while the engine is running? This would not necessarily mean the engine would smoke upon cold start or really at any other time. The AOS would just let some oil vapor past all the time and over time this would result in a drop in the oil level.
I would not advise you do this but removing the air intake tube to the throttle body and then the throttle body and checking the throttle body for signs of oil and the intake manifold walls from there on to the heads would be interesting. If there is oil found then this strongly points to the AOS.
For an engine to suddenly develop an appetite for oil requires a problem with piston/ring/cylinder sealing or valve guide/stem and seal sealing. In the case of the former one cylinder would be down on power and one plug would be discolored from the excessive oil. In the case of the latter this often makes a racket. The valve stem is loose in the guide. Even with all valve stem seals removed the engine wouldn't use that much more oil.
You report the engine is running ok, with no symptoms and no CEL. If after a long closed throttle coast down then stepping on the gas hard or taking off aggressively and banging the gear box up through the gears under hard acceleration doesn't produce any visible oil smoke -- do this with a low sun behind you to help highlight any smoke or have someone follow your car ideally filming the car -- then it doesn't appear like an engine that has developed an appetite for oil.
Laz - 9 years ago |
way back when I think I mentioned on this board that the car would make an initial loud tapping for about a minute or two on one side, as if one lifter wasn't getting pressure as quickly as the rest. This would only occur from dead cold. I made the dealer service guys aware of this observation more than once, and I assume the mechanics listened for it after an oil change, which I think would allow for the engine to be sufficiently cold and "depressurized." I still hear it every now and then, but I can't say it's gotten worse.
I'm hoping these 9A1 engines are "bulletproof," and I'd jump for joy if it turns out being only a bum level sensor!
Well, in light of my signature, it's time for really good food which will cheer me up.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
I'm hoping these 9A1 engines are "bulletproof," and I'd jump for joy if it turns out being only a bum level sensor!
Well, in light of my signature, it's time for really good food which will cheer me up.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
MikenOH - 9 years ago |
Quote
MarcW
It is not impossible for the engine to develop an appetite for oil and the dealer I believe is thinking of this.
This would be a rare event though.
Assuming your engine hasn't developed an appetite for oil one explanation is the oil level sensor/system is not reporting the oil level accurately.
Given this possibility I would have liked to seen the dealer bring the car in and do another oil service and confirm the oil level reported by the sensor/system agrees with the known amount of oil just added to the engine under "lab" conditions.
I'm not too up on the newer engines but I have to wonder if the AOS could be acting up and allowing too much oil by while the engine is running? This would not necessarily mean the engine would smoke upon cold start or really at any other time. The AOS would just let some oil vapor past all the time and over time this would result in a drop in the oil level.
I would not advise you do this but removing the air intake tube to the throttle body and then the throttle body and checking the throttle body for signs of oil and the intake manifold walls from there on to the heads would be interesting. If there is oil found then this strongly points to the AOS.
For an engine to suddenly develop an appetite for oil requires a problem with piston/ring/cylinder sealing or valve guide/stem and seal sealing. In the case of the former one cylinder would be down on power and one plug would be discolored from the excessive oil. In the case of the latter this often makes a racket. The valve stem is loose in the guide. Even with all valve stem seals removed the engine wouldn't use that much more oil.
You report the engine is running ok, with no symptoms and no CEL. If after a long closed throttle coast down then stepping on the gas hard or taking off aggressively and banging the gear box up through the gears under hard acceleration doesn't produce any visible oil smoke -- do this with a low sun behind you to help highlight any smoke or have someone follow your car ideally filming the car -- then it doesn't appear like an engine that has developed an appetite for oil.
Good ideas, all. I'd start with the sensor first; determine if the oil level indicator accurately represents how much oil is actually in the system and then stat looking at the AOS.
In my own experience, a small amount of oil--3 oz.--changed the oil indicator from 1 bar down (.45L) to full, making me think this sensor system isn't terribly accurate.
Laz - 9 years ago |
The worry isn't the .45 qts, but the repeated adding to maintain the full indication. AOS is intriguing, too. The compensation is to eat here:
[www.ftbistro.com]
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
[www.ftbistro.com]
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
I admit I don't scan the other Porsche boards, because I get what I need here. On the other hand, it would be good to know if your case is an isolated incident. I know that when I looked at PPBB years ago, the main concern was RMS. The IMS problem was there of course, but it wasn't recognized as a serious problem for awhile.
Laz - 9 years ago |
Planet-9, where I posted this situation. Also I looked at Renn-Tech… I believe I'm a member, but run into log-in problems often.
Nothing came up specific to this. Without getting too crazy (?) about it, I began to wonder if a possible dealer short-fill (don't mind if they do that by a few ounces) was enough somehow to be on the low side tolerance for the one increment down reading, and it was juusst above being a two increment down reading. My subsequent top-offs were minimal so as not to overfill, so maybe this would still cause a low reading.* It doesn't really account for topping off three times.
* The only other thing could be the vagaries of precisely where the car was parked each time, exactly how long I waited (1+ minute, 3 minutes, e.g.,) and exactly what the oil temperature was. To be clear, after each engine shut-off, I checked more than once. The owner's manual says to wait approximately 1 minute. I wish I had taken note of the exact amount of oil I've added, but as this was never an issue, it didn't occur to me until I decided to post the problem and also tell the dealer. I'm pretty sure I added very close +/- a quart. Again, the number of top-offs to get a full reading discounts the amount I added being an issue. Two one increment drops alone accounts for ≈ .9 quart.
Ok, one more thing which I immediately dismiss. When I first got the car and tried the Auto Stop-Start, I noticed the pressure was maintained at 1 psi with the engine off. But being I don't use it, and it's definitely not engaged when I do the level check--- the psi reads 0.
Overall, my checking process has been the same since I got the car, almost 3 years ago. Still hoping the problem will "mysteriously" go away!
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2015 04:53PM by Laz. (view changes)
Nothing came up specific to this. Without getting too crazy (?) about it, I began to wonder if a possible dealer short-fill (don't mind if they do that by a few ounces) was enough somehow to be on the low side tolerance for the one increment down reading, and it was juusst above being a two increment down reading. My subsequent top-offs were minimal so as not to overfill, so maybe this would still cause a low reading.* It doesn't really account for topping off three times.
* The only other thing could be the vagaries of precisely where the car was parked each time, exactly how long I waited (1+ minute, 3 minutes, e.g.,) and exactly what the oil temperature was. To be clear, after each engine shut-off, I checked more than once. The owner's manual says to wait approximately 1 minute. I wish I had taken note of the exact amount of oil I've added, but as this was never an issue, it didn't occur to me until I decided to post the problem and also tell the dealer. I'm pretty sure I added very close +/- a quart. Again, the number of top-offs to get a full reading discounts the amount I added being an issue. Two one increment drops alone accounts for ≈ .9 quart.
Ok, one more thing which I immediately dismiss. When I first got the car and tried the Auto Stop-Start, I noticed the pressure was maintained at 1 psi with the engine off. But being I don't use it, and it's definitely not engaged when I do the level check--- the psi reads 0.
Overall, my checking process has been the same since I got the car, almost 3 years ago. Still hoping the problem will "mysteriously" go away!
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2015 04:53PM by Laz. (view changes)
Laz - 8 years ago |
More and more thinking it was a magic intermediate level due to a short-fill that, along with approximations made by the sensor, appeared to be oil loss. The car only has a couple hundred miles since I stopped topping up per the dealer, but the level seems stable. Not that the dealer's service people were losing sleep over this, but I'll let them know after a few hundred more miles of certainty. No I wasn't losing sleep over this either!
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
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