Re: My conspiracy theory...from another point of view and experience

We took the Boxster out to go to an all-day Aikido event in Somerville and was heading home around 8PM. There was about 5" of snow on the ground. That amount is nothing for New England, but the plows have not had time to clear all the roads at that time.
With all the storm warnings, there weren't many vehicles on the road.

So the going, while slow, was pretty non-eventful... until we got to the bridge that takes one over from the Cambridge side to the Boston University side (the BU Bridge).

For some reason, there was a large backup at the spot. As I waited my turn to get up to the bridge, I realized what the problem was...like many bridges, there is an incline leading up to the actual bridge and some cars were have problems managing the incline!

I had snow tires on the Boxster and knew that getting up onto the bridge would not be a problem, but as we all merged, the SUV next to me was already slipping around a little. I figured I had better get ahead of it or it is going to be a crap shoot at the incline.
As we merged to get onto the turn for the bridge, I pulled in front as I had the better grip, got ahead of the SUV, and made it up the incline.

Looking back, I could see the SUV sliding sideways, cutting off everyone else. Even by the time I had crossed the entire bridge, no other car came up behind me.

So... snow tires...they are not the same as All-season tires...even for those who don't drive their Boxster in the Winter.

Way back when I had a 912, it was fitted with Semperit snows on the rear for wintertime. There was a tight, steep road known unofficially as "Snake Hill," that was basically all hairpins. Once, going up when its surface was essentially hard-packed snow and ice, I came upon a Jeep that was initially moving ok, but then reached a point where all it could do was spin its wheels, and I had to stop. Fortunately, there was a decent amount of forward visiibility, so I backed down a little, and then with absolutely no trouble gingerly passed around and continued on my merry way.
Years later, one snowy night I was going up a mile-long, steep grade in upstate NY with my CRX equipped with Blizzaks. (It looked like I was driving through a long white tunnel.) I was moving fairly close to the speed limit, but being prudent and not wanting to be a hero. Then some sort of SUV came up behind me and pretty much began tail-gating, so knowing I still had traction in reserve, slowly accelerated, and eventually left it behind.
The point of all this is for all the 4 wheel drive and various traction-control systems, the kind of rubber meeting the road is what counts. All else is merely compensating, if possible, for the loss of traction.

Quote
Laz
Way back when I had a 912, it was fitted with Semperit snows on the rear for wintertime. There was a tight, steep road known unofficially as "Snake Hill," that was basically all hairpins. Once, going up when its surface was essentially hard-packed snow and ice, I came upon a Jeep that was initially moving ok, but then reached a point where all it could do was spin its wheels, and I had to stop. Fortunately, there was a decent amount of forward visiibility, so I backed down a little, and then with absolutely no trouble gingerly passed around and continued on my merry way.
Years later, one snowy night I was going up a mile-long, steep grade in upstate NY with my CRX equipped with Blizzaks. (It looked like I was driving through a long white tunnel.) I was moving fairly close to the speed limit, but being prudent and not wanting to be a hero. Then some sort of SUV came up behind me and pretty much began tail-gating, so knowing I still had traction in reserve, slowly accelerated, and eventually left it behind.
The point of all this is for all the 4 wheel drive and various traction-control systems, the kind of rubber meeting the road is what counts. All else is merely compensating, if possible, for the loss of traction.

Semperit--now that's a name of the past. Had their snows on a late 60's Opel when I was going to school; the difference in traction was amazing even back then.
Regarding Blizzaks, I've been driving on them for probably 10 years now and I'm still surprised by people questioning the need for snows here on an AWD SUV during the winter. Probably the same people passing everyone in the left lane-while on the phone- at speed when road conditions are marginal, until they end sideways in the center median.

In warm weather seeing BMWs (the ultimate driving machines) that've skidded off into the medians.
In snow it always seems to be Jeeps.

An aside: I always hated the pre-ABS era expression, "pump the brakes." It's likely countless drivers have totally lost control because of the inference one should be wildly stabbing the brake pedal, whereas it really was about finer modulation, which is more akin to the ABS effect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2016 10:38AM by Laz. (view changes)

Bought an extra set of rims from someone who wanted larger ones than those which came on their Boxster years ago.
Have tried different snow tires (Blizzarks, etc), but realized that as long as they were designed for snow and stayed soft in lower temps, they pretty much will beat any all-seasons out there.

Here are some pics of when they were first purchased four years ago:
[rainydaymagazine.com]

They have about 20K on them after 4 years....so maybe another season or two left.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

I put a set of Blizzaks on my 2000 Boxster S... got them for free.. someone had used them, sold the car, gave them to me.

The DARN THINGS WOULD NOT WEAR OUT!!!! Blizzaks were the best snow tire I owned for snow... period. However, they have no sidewalls therefore are mushy as all slop, and they are noisy noisy noisy as they wear. But.... they never wear out and are great in the snow.

I figured I would try them out for a 1/2 season or so...... I don't remember how many seasons I had on them, but I finally dumped them because I didn't like the poor handing performance.

Best performance snows were Dunlops and Michelin Alpin for me. But..... I was so impressed with those Blizzaks, I put a set on my wife's IS250 AWD.... that thing will go through anything!

Peace
Bruce in Philly

At this link; second from left. Funny; the Saab fitment was exactly the size for the 912: 165-15.
[s175.photobucket.com]
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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2016 09:58PM by Laz. (view changes)

Quote
Laz
At this link; second from left. Funny; the Saab fitment was exactly the size for the 912: 165-15.
[s175.photobucket.com]
(Being Photobucket, you might have to allow cookies, and/or reload the linked page.)

When I was going to college in the late 60's I had a 65 Sunbeam Tiger that I had Semperit tires that were more of an all season tire and they were also good in snow. Our local sports car club would hold time trial events on about a 1 to 1 1/2 mile plowed road course on lake Winnebago and I ran the Tiger in the street tire class and my sister's 69 Mach 1 Mustang with studded snows all around. Great fun and you could really polish your winter driving skills. Today my daily driver is a 15 Mustang GT that I have Michelin winter tires on I they are good handling on dry roads and much better in the snow than the Pirelli all season tires I had I the previous 10 GT.

Good for you, Wayne. The new GT is a great car; we just picked up an EB.

Winter tires on my Cayman allowed me to cruise the neighborhood after our record breaker this weekend. Grip is quite good. Never had them on my Boxsters but the Cayman had them on when I bought it. I now have another set of 18" wheels with summer tires. I'm a believer now.

When the first winter (2012-13) with the 981 was coming along, only 19s, the same as the summers, were available. 18s, now available in the proper fitments as Dunlops and Pirellis, would be considered, although TireRack has the Michelin PA4 as top rated. (I think some of this is attributable to its being the "latest greatest." ) There isn't really much of a width difference; there simply aren't significantly narrower tires available, other than someone having to do a lot of figuring and empirical experimentation to find out what works in regard to offsets, stability control effects, etc. However, the significant advantage to 18s would be the lower cost for both the tires and wheels.
The present Michelin PA4s are excellent cold weather tires, with little given up regarding grip, responsiveness, etc, but I would've liked it if more emphasis was given to actual snow traction. Perhaps they would be a whole lot better in this regard if they were a whole lot narrower. (I'm not so worried the car would look a bit silly.)

It's possible the tread compound was compromised, when, before having any snow to deal with, I visited friends in Montgomery, Alabama in early December 2012, and it hit 85º once I got to the state. Maybe it's psychological, but I felt like the tread compounds were being cooked. The pressures were certainly way up. Drove ten under (yes, right lane) so as not to aggravate the situation. On the way home there was a big snowstorm in the northeast as far south as Maryland, and the tires did well with that. Going down I took the Blue Ridge Parkway, but coming back took a route that would get me to the east coast as far south as practical (Richmond) because the snow, temperature, and highway grades/curves would be more moderate. The car did quite well, actually, but in later situations in the past couple years, it seemed there should've been more forward traction, especially considering the car has the limited slip option, mild as it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2016 11:10AM by Laz. (view changes)

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Two weeks ago at Robibero in upstate NY. They make a nice white called "Serendipity."




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2016 10:37AM by Laz. (view changes)

Why is the snow painted green?

That almost looks like April with grass on the ground..

Here winter looks more like this,

This pic was also taken 2 weeks ago. Granted, we've had a very mild start to Winter and didn't have any snow to speak of until the beginning of January. Tomorrow, we might get our first day above 32 degrees this year. That brown slush, a mix of salt, sand and snow is what does to your car, what keeping your mouth full of brown sugar 24/7 would do for your teeth.



Here's what it looked like by the beginning of February last year.

For all the merits of the Mid-Hudson area, during a winery tour in early December I discovered most all the wines are forgettable, except for some composed of grapes from the very distant Finger Lakes region. The Serendipity was a real standout, as I've been lately trying different Sauvignon Blancs and Vouvrays, and this one holds well with them. (Not that I'm at all a sophisticated oenophile.) One of the wineries, having all pretty mediocre wines, makes an excellent brandy. Friends I was with bought the straight one, and I got one that has a (I think) walnut component, and likely some cardamom. It too, is outstandingly good.

I've said if before, if you live in a northern climate, 'all season tires' are an oxymoron. Terrible in the snow, and terrible in the dry - I'm half convinced 'all season' tires are a conspiracy to convince people to trade up to 4x4/AWD SUVs rather than just get a proper set of snow tires (as I've told many a friend, 4 x 0 = 0 [traction] ) . My 'lesser' BMW 328xi (AWD) with 4 Nokian Hakkapeliittas is an absolute monster in the snow... apparently my (summer only) Boxster S would do almost as well similarly equipped.

- JohnL
Boston
'01 S

I tell people, "So, you've got four skidding wheels instead of two." Yeah, I know the assumption is that at least one or two will be grabbing sometimes.

Our "other vehicle" is also a BMW 328xi - in this case the wagon. Although I'm sure traction would be better on winter tires, I've never had a problem driving with the all season tires. (I did get rid of the OE run flats. Handling was terrible and they couldn't be repaired if you got a flat.) Granted, I don't run them to the wear bars like some people do.

On a recent trip to Florida, we ran into a 150 mile stretch of blizzard conditions with quite a bit of snow accumulating on the mountain roads in WV. There were lots of cars off the road or in collisions bad enough to cause a couple hours of delays. Yes, most of them where SUV's because the drivers think 4WD allows the car to handle / stop in snow just like on dry roads. I had no problem getting through it. I just gave myself plenty of space to avoid getting hit by people who don't know how to drive in those conditions.

If I'd been on winter tires, I'd have been driving in Florida's 80 degree winter weather on very soft squishy tires and probably wearing them out at a pretty quick rate.

My wife doesn't have any problem driving the car on snow covered roads either.

Back when our A4 was totalled, the roads where snow covered, my wife was driving. An oncoming truck (on winter tires) lost control and hit an SUV (on winter tires), sending the SUV directly into our path. My wife had nowhere to go with a 4' snow bank running along the side of the road. Shows just what's really important.

I'm not knocking winter tires. I just don't think they're necessary if you have a set of good all season tires and adjust your driving to the road conditions.

With a sports car like a Porsche, it's a different story. I you're going to make use of the high performance tires' capability, you won't want to run it on all season tires. So if you normally drive it with high performance tires and you're planning on driving it in winter, you certainly want to drive it with winter tires.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2016 11:57AM by Guenter in Ontario. (view changes)

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Guenter -

>> I just don't think they're necessary if you have a set of good all season tires and adjust your driving to the road conditions.

As I tell my friends, 'it ain that startin', it's the stoppin'. I've got some good data on this... my wife's MB E350 wagon on 'all season' Conti's might as well be a cat on a tile floor when it comes to braking performance compared to my 328xi w/ Hakkas. Sure, the MB's ABS chatters, and the ESP flashes, but 4 x0 is still zero, and her cars feels like a puck on ice. I'd agree with you if I could anticipate every situation, but all is takes is one yahoo to pop out from a side street to demonstrate that a proper set of snow tires stops me in in 30% less distance. Your Florida situation is an edge case, but for everyday driving in the northeast from November through April my setup is worth it's weight in gold. In fact, the biggest worry I have is staring in the rear view mirror to make sure the moron in the minivan with all-seasons is paying attention when I need to emergency stop.

Regards.

Quote
Guenter in Ontario
Our "other vehicle" is also a BMW 328xi - in this case the wagon. Although I'm sure traction would be better on winter tires, I've never had a problem driving with the all season tires. (I did get rid of the OE run flats. Handling was terrible and they couldn't be repaired if you got a flat.) Granted, I don't run them to the wear bars like some people do.

On a recent trip to Florida, we ran into a 150 mile stretch of blizzard conditions with quite a bit of snow accumulating on the mountain roads in WV. There were lots of cars off the road or in collisions bad enough to cause a couple hours of delays. Yes, most of them where SUV's because the drivers think 4WD allows the car to handle / stop in snow just like on dry roads. I had no problem getting through it. I just gave myself plenty of space to avoid getting hit by people who don't know how to drive in those conditions.

If I'd been on winter tires, I'd have been driving in Florida's 80 degree winter weather on very soft squishy tires and probably wearing them out at a pretty quick rate.

My wife doesn't have any problem driving the car on snow covered roads either.

Back when our A4 was totalled, the roads where snow covered, my wife was driving. An oncoming truck (on winter tires) lost control and hit an SUV (on winter tires), sending the SUV directly into our path. My wife had nowhere to go with a 4' snow bank running along the side of the road. Shows just what's really important.

I'm not knocking winter tires. I just don't think they're necessary if you have a set of good all season tires and adjust your driving to the road conditions.

With a sports car like a Porsche, it's a different story. I you're going to make use of the high performance tires' capability, you won't want to run it on all season tires. So if you normally drive it with high performance tires and you're planning on driving it in winter, you certainly want to drive it with winter tires.

Interesting points, Guenter.

From my experience, there are a lot of A/S tires out there, but their snow performance really varies from brand and model of tire. The original A/S tires on our current RAV4 are strictly dry weather performers--quiet with decent dry traction, that become mediocre in the rain, to lousy--almost useless-- in any kind of snow despite, having AWD. Come Mid-November, the Blizzaks are put on.

We had Continental DWS tires on our old RWD 328i and they were good in light snow as well as in the dry or wet conditions. The new replacement for them is the DWS 06 which has a similar tread pattern along with a stiffer sidewall. That would be my tire if I had to make a long trip traveling from a freezing cold area to a much warmer climate.

Quote
RainyDayGarage
We took the Boxster out to go to an all-day Aikido event in Somerville and was heading home around 8PM. There was about 5" of snow on the ground. That amount is nothing for New England, but the plows have not had time to clear all the roads at that time.
With all the storm warnings, there weren't many vehicles on the road.

So the going, while slow, was pretty non-eventful... until we got to the bridge that takes one over from the Cambridge side to the Boston University side (the BU Bridge).

For some reason, there was a large backup at the spot. As I waited my turn to get up to the bridge, I realized what the problem was...like many bridges, there is an incline leading up to the actual bridge and some cars were have problems managing the incline!

I had snow tires on the Boxster and knew that getting up onto the bridge would not be a problem, but as we all merged, the SUV next to me was already slipping around a little. I figured I had better get ahead of it or it is going to be a crap shoot at the incline.
As we merged to get onto the turn for the bridge, I pulled in front as I had the better grip, got ahead of the SUV, and made it up the incline.

Looking back, I could see the SUV sliding sideways, cutting off everyone else. Even by the time I had crossed the entire bridge, no other car came up behind me.

So... snow tires...they are not the same as All-season tires...even for those who don't drive their Boxster in the Winter.

Props to you, Rainy. I was driving into Boston during that time in my wife's Honda CR-V AWD with all-seasons. Definitely a little dicey, but just need to really be smooth and gentle on the accelerator and brakes. Her prior vehicle RAV-4 AWD had a more agressive tread pattern and was more stable. Thinking we should get a set of snows for the CR-V. Now for the Box, it may go great with snows, but I just don't want salt on my FL car (thanks again, Pedro!).

My wife's Audi A3 Quattro has all season tires, My Audi S4 Quattro has snow tires. My F250 Diesel pick up has M + S tires. We can get any of them stuck in the right conditions. It all depends on the nut behind the wheel. Pick the tire for the conditions you will be driving in.
Four wheel drive just lets you get further off the road before you get stuck.

Ed B

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