Broaden the sample of trials

My topic title says "manual or PDK," but I drove the PDK several times, know it's great, but still know I'll get a manual, as long as they make one and my legs work. I just like the driving experience and feel of control with a manual clutch and shift. But, knowing it's likely a worn out topic, is there a consensus of any kind when it comes to transmissions?

About the Boxster. I'm looking at a 911, but, in reality, my Boxster has been so wonderful all these years, I'm inclined to look at the new Boxster, instead. But I can't get used to the idea that the Porsche engineers (or is the VW influence) felt that a four cylinder turbo was the way to go. Raw speed isn't anything I'm after. I like the feel and handling, and the incredible quality and workmanship, or will that all now change, too?

So, my other question is whether the initial apprehension on this Board has given way to optimism and acceptance, or is the four cylinder 718 seen by purists as a big mistake?

I guess a little more: Do people here feel that a Carrera, say a base 2017 cab, is every bit worth the extra $50+K over and above what a new Boxster would cost? Are they such different cars that a comparison isn't warranted?

Thanks (and sorry if I'm beating a few really dead subjects).

I have always maintained that a) involvement is much more important than performance; b) we cant use 50% of the performance of most cars on public roads, c) driving is more important than what you drive and d) on the track too much is not nearly enough, so why bother?

All this comes down - for me - to keeping what i have and using it more and more, making it safer and safer, and not worrying.

The 4-cyl turbo is a business and environmental ( political) necessity. It uses less fuel, produces less emissions and carbon and essentially lets Porsche keep going without being adrift of the laws. Its also cheaper and likely lighter.

I expect that viscerally it will be less aurally enjoyable than a flat-6; have slightly more lag, yet deliver more go and a bigger surge/torque push.

With a turbo more gears is better; but i still wont give up my manual. Heck, if and when the troublesome automatic in my S6 goes, i likely wont fix it. I'll do a 6-speed conversion, pedals and all.

But in the end - going back to the top - i think the answer is "dont sweat it, enjoy it, whatever it is"

G - about to go add lightness to my track car, then add not lightness to me

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

because the turbos on the base and S 718s are different.

You could have dozens of possible head to head comparisons just in the P-car ranges.

In the end imagine how you will use it, what will the probability of passengers, probability of 2 people's stuff for a weekend away, what other options to you have in making that trip.

How much power is enough (said as one who just took a small displacement car into the mountains of western NC).

How much traffic do you expect?

How important is that first year of depreciation?

How about a CPO and its extended period of warranty?

Good luck....

It has more power and torque at every point in the rev range. IOW, there should be no sacrifice in terms of driving feel. I would hold judgement until you've tried it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2016 11:25AM by Boxsterra. (view changes)

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Both Grant and Boxsterra offer solid input.

Boxsterra makes an excellent suggestion that you drive the cars you're thinking about. That will be of great assistance.

You can probably buy a used, low mileage, 981 for $20k less than a new 718. A used 991 will set you back at least another $20-30k over a used 981.

The 718 might sound ok, but it's not going to sound like the NA 9X1 engine. Turbo lag in the 4 may not be a big issue, but it WILL be there, to some extent.

For my money, $20k off a slightly used 981S is a deal too good to pass up, even assuming the 718 offers an acceleration edge. (Absent the aural crescendo of the NA 3.4 flat-6, the 718's slightly better acceleration would not translate into greater exhilaration for me

As for the 991, If, after you've driven one, you're really hankering for the 'iconic' 911, and nothing else will do, then that will be the right choice..

With regard to manual or PDK, some people love their PDK - Lawdevil, for example, is very happy with his. PDK shifts faster. OTOH, there are those of us for whom shifting manually is an integral part of the driving experience, the interaction with the car, that we do not want to give up. Unless you're tracking your car, the quickness of the PDK shifting won't likely matter. But giving up the experience may matter a lot. That's a decision only you can make.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2016 04:49PM by Roger987. (view changes)

Well, to be honest, there's really only one person who has the answer to your question(s). That's the guy that is going to buy the car.

Everyone has different reasons for buying a car with different expectations.

To get the car that's right for you, you need to take it for a test drive. You're wondering if you should get a 718 or 911. Best thing you can do is take each of them out for back to back test drives. Take them both on the same route that should include the type(s) of driving that you do. When you're done, you should know which one you like best.

Certainly ask for suggestions, but ulimately, you still have to try and see if they're the right ones for you. Besides, it makes for a great afternoon, trying out some Porsches and getting the one that's just right for you.

Happy Porsche test driving.

... most people don't know how to use it to its potential hence the criticism.
A well driven car with a PDK is as involved and rewarding as with a manual.
And it's faster to boot!
99% of PDK drivers use their right foot to accelerate and brake but when driving a manual they use the left foot as well to actuate the clutch hence it feels more involved.
If you learn to left-foot brake and use your right foot for the gas pedal only you will start to feel the same involvement as with a manual.
Granted, you need to be strapped in tightly so you don't slide as both feet are now just depressing pedals and not holding you as would the left foot on the dead pedal.
With the new PDK you don't have to heel-and-toe because the car rev-matches for you automatically but you then learn to use the brakes not only to slow you down but also to help you turn by shifting more weight to the front tires on a turn since you are now free to use the brakes and accelerator at the same time.
I am equally happy in a Porsche with a manual as with a Porsche Doppelkupungsgestriebe.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

First off, I don't think it was really Porsche or VW that decided to go 4 banger Turbo, it's really international emissions' agreements to increase fuel mpg and decrease tailpipe emissions. The base 911 is now a 2.0 litre turbo. So, Porsche/VW would have to go to what, a 1.6 litre or so flat six Turbo for the 718? That would have been worse than a four banger, most likely, with wicked turbo lag that would kill the driving pleasure. Less than 2.0 litres is also econo-box engine territory. As far as Boxster vs 911, that's a personal thing. I took that leap in 2009 (997 S Cab). I must say, the build quality is much better in the 911, but the ride experience is much, much different. I think overall, I do prefer the Boxster design and feel better than the 911. If it ever comes time to get rid of my current ride, I'd go back to the Boxster S. I just prefer the two-seater configuration, and that mid-engine handling. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I went the 911 route, but it's just a different creature altogether. But, life is good when you have such choices. Good luck.

Quote
kentv1
My topic title says "manual or PDK," but I drove the PDK several times, know it's great, but still know I'll get a manual, as long as they make one and my legs work. I just like the driving experience and feel of control with a manual clutch and shift. But, knowing it's likely a worn out topic, is there a consensus of any kind when it comes to transmissions?

About the Boxster. I'm looking at a 911, but, in reality, my Boxster has been so wonderful all these years, I'm inclined to look at the new Boxster, instead. But I can't get used to the idea that the Porsche engineers (or is the VW influence) felt that a four cylinder turbo was the way to go. Raw speed isn't anything I'm after. I like the feel and handling, and the incredible quality and workmanship, or will that all now change, too?

So, my other question is whether the initial apprehension on this Board has given way to optimism and acceptance, or is the four cylinder 718 seen by purists as a big mistake?

I guess a little more: Do people here feel that a Carrera, say a base 2017 cab, is every bit worth the extra $50+K over and above what a new Boxster would cost? Are they such different cars that a comparison isn't warranted?

Thanks (and sorry if I'm beating a few really dead subjects).

Regarding the switch from 6 to 4 cylinders it is a mistake but not Porsche's mistake. It is -- and this ventures in to off topicness -- a mistake in that a burearacy has gotten to the point it can enact tighter emissions with no more justification than it can.

Modern vehicles are so clean running that any improvement in their emissions won't have any effect on air quality. Tighter emissions, "better" fuel economy demanded by decree, is not due to any concern about the environment, although that is the publicly stated reason. The real reason is to exert more control over society, to increase the cost of vehicle ownership, to increase demand for public transportation and to grow this, to increase the number of public union employees to increase the amount of money their unions donate to the favored political party.

Getting more back on topic: Manual vs. PDK? Both types of transmissions have their pluses and both have their minuses. But for your choice of which transmission that is only for you to decide. I've never driven a PDK equipped Porsche. I spent a week or so in a loaner Cayenne with a Tip and it was a fine vehicle, a fine transmission. One point that stuck with me was the fact the Cayenne still comes with a Tip and not a PDK. The word I get is the Tip, at least the version in the Cayenne, is better suited to the demands of an SUV, and this includes towing. The Tip is a more robust, more mature, transmission. However, in a Boxster with its less substantial demands I think the PDK would be just as good as a Tip.

I've considered a new car (well, new "used" or new new) and the question of manual vs. PDK has come up. While I would like to try a PDK -- provided a test drive found no reason for me to reject it due to its performance/behavior -- I tend towards favoring a manual simply for its simplicity and robustness. I've never worn out a manual transmission. While I never wore out an automatic either (had to have one rebuilt this in a used pick up I bought) still I am reluctant to let go of a manual and move to a PDK. I have put some "big" miles on manual transmission cars and in call cases the manual transmission has proved up to the big miles. And in only one case have I had to replace a clutch. But this was after nearly 150K miles (this in the Mustang).

In my case then if all other things are equal the car equipped with the manual transmission would get my nod.

Believe it or not regarding your dilemma regarding 911 vs. Boxster I'm kind of in the same boat. I have thoroughly enjoyed my Boxster all these 14+ years. It has been a fantastic car.

But I do not use the top down feature so the roadster aspect is of no real value to me. I do though appreciate the mid-engine layout and the car's handling, road feel, and because of its light weight without the feeling of "cheap" to obtain it really like the car's performance even though the engine is just 2.7l.

However, I'm generally not in favor of buying the same car again and again. Whenever I can I like to try something different. Ah,ok I admit, there have been exceptions: Mustang GT; Camaro Z28, and after a bit of a gap, a GTO. All front engine, manual transmission, rear wheel drive modern day "muscle" cars. Still that bit of a gap consisted of a Boxster and a VW Golf TDi. So there has been some variety.

Now I did for a time own a new Cayman S. A duplicate of the Boxster? Well, not quite but I really favor the attributes of the Boxster and the Cayman gave me the ability to keep those while getting rid of the soft top which while it hasn't been a bad thing I just don't use any.

Unfortunately, due to an accident just weeks after buying the Cayman my time with that car was cut short. I was unable to find a suitable replacement afterwards but instead ended up with a very low miles 2003 996 Turbo.

So recently when starting to think about what to get next, it has been which of the 911 models to get.

But after going through the choices, weighing each in turn against what I have and what I like/don't like, I have recently come to while not quite -- not yet at any rate -- embracing the idea of owning another Boxster, a new Boxster, or more likely, a new Cayman, both models have been added to the list of cars to consider when (if) I decide to buy another car.

My hold up is 1) I have not yet exerienced the new 4-cylinder model; and 2) I'm loathe to be the 1st one to jump onto the new model with the unproven engine. My general car buying rule is to avoid the first year example of a new model. The one time I broke this rule I regretted it. However, in another case I bought a subsequent year example (a 2003 Turbo) and given my trouble with this car one would think it was a 1st year example. So the jury is still out on 1st year vs. the 2nd or subsequent year.

As for your question regarding Cab vs.Boxster... While both offer top down driving experience they are rather different cars. Since depreciation is one of if not the biggest expense to owning a car I can tell you my 2nd hand info is -- this from talking to dealer employees from salesmen to SM to the techs -- Cabs suffer a very steep depreciation curve. Apparently while the Cab is much favored by the original owner and he is willing to pay the premium for the car, subsequent prospective buyers are not.

But if you really decide you want a Cab and if resale/trade in value down the road doesn't matter then the Cab could be the right choice.

I'll stick with my 2000S

No need for a Boxster.

PS. My clubs fit in the rear trunk of my 981 if I take the drivers and woods out of the bag.

We all have different priorities.

I prefer a caddie over a cart.