One of my car buying recommendations...

He'd rather buy a used flat 6, but other than the engine note, loves the new one: CNET Video Review of 718 Cayman S

Am I wrong in wishing the new Cayman S is a superb car that nobody buys because of the "noise" so I can pick up one at a substantial discount? I recall back in April 2009 I was able to buy a new 2008 Cayman S off the dealer lot optioned just like I would have ordered it (except maybe I would have preferred PCCB's) that listed new for $62.6K for $12K off of sticker, which brought the car down to $50.6K. I'd love to do that kind of a deal again with a new 718 Cayman S.

2009 was a unique year. The auto industry crashed. In Nov. 2009 I picked up my 997S Cab for a song, something like 25% off MSRP.

Me too. Enough about the sound already.

2001 Base, purchased in 2004, replaced engine at 130K+, RIP 2017

not likely to be repeated gain soon, given the NA mess VW has created.
They have got huge bills to pay in trying to make peace with their client base in NA. With Porsche generating the lions share of corporate profits--and VW needing all of it--I don't see them getting very generous trying to move 718's in the near term.

Add to that, the 718 is a very expensive car and will still be expensive even with a sizable discount.
BTW, you got the deal of the century on your Cayman.

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MikenOH
not likely to be repeated gain soon, given the NA mess VW has created.
They have got huge bills to pay in trying to make peace with their client base in NA. With Porsche generating the lions share of corporate profits--and VW needing all of it--I don't see them getting very generous trying to move 718's in the near term.

Add to that, the 718 is a very expensive car and will still be expensive even with a sizable discount.
BTW, you got the deal of the century on your Cayman.

You make good points but if the new 718 models don't move the price will come down. At least a guy can hope, can't he?

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MarcW

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MikenOH
not likely to be repeated gain soon, given the NA mess VW has created.
They have got huge bills to pay in trying to make peace with their client base in NA. With Porsche generating the lions share of corporate profits--and VW needing all of it--I don't see them getting very generous trying to move 718's in the near term.

Add to that, the 718 is a very expensive car and will still be expensive even with a sizable discount.
BTW, you got the deal of the century on your Cayman.

You make good points but if the new 718 models don't move the price will come down. At least a guy can hope, can't he?

For sure don't give up hope!

It just may take a special alignment of the stars to recreate your old deal.

But i think the car will prove successful, possibly with a slightly different audience.

I've kept my mouth shut because I have relatively few miles on the new cars, but I did get a ~5-7 miles twisties drive outside Pocono Racetrack (where, conveniently, I'll be again later today, for Audi Club's "twilight") a few weeks back in a BoxsterS. Fast. Stable. Smooth. Comfy. I did find it less involving/connected, but that's true of nearly every new generation of cars since the model T. I still mist the manual steering in my 1981 Scirocco. telepathic. Oh, and it had a turbo (that I bolted on) - sounded great :-)

In a few weeks, if no problems crop up, i'll drive the new Cayman S **on** the track at WGI and then I'll have something to say.

Note that in reading through most of the reviews, even the telegraph one recently, once they carped about the farting noise they said very good things about the car itself.

And yes, costs play little part in prices. If demand falls, so will prices - eventually. or they'll cut production, but in a high fixed cost business, that's even worse for free cash flow.

G

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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grant
But i think the car will prove successful, possibly with a slightly different audience.

To survive and grow -- which is pretty much the same thing -- Porsche has to expand its market. Toyota and other large automakers didn't get large by catering to a small elite group of car buyers. Porsche must cater to a larger market and as a result newer models will be toned down in some respects.

I'm really attracted to the new 718 models. Well, not so much the Boxster as I have pretty much gotten the Boxster itch scratched, but the Cayman. I really appreciate the mid-engine layout and the utility of the car, the trunk room. It is still far away the best driving/handling car I could ever afford and has enough luxury -- really for me creature comforts -- that I find pretty much must have's nowadays.

Plus I'm a big fan of turbo-charging but not as big a fan of the 911 turbo-charged models. My 996 Turbo experience has kind of soured me on owning another flagship Turbo model, even a used one.

Lots of torque, grip, steering response and the practicality of two trunks from the mid-engine layout remains.

The engine note may be going in a direction that many current Porsche owners don't appreciate, but this may not be a deal breaker for new buyers.

The bump in pricing concerns me and as an owner that likes to take his car to the track, I'd be reluctant to be an early adapter of the 718 unit it's clear the heat management concerns have been handled properly. After reading how many people have gotten burned on some of the new uber models recently released--Z06/GT350 come to mind first--because they would overheat at the track, I'd like to see some evidence that the car can handle 4/25 minute sessions at a DE w/o going into a limp mode.

Regarding your 996TT Marc, what soured you on the car?

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MikenOH
Lots of torque, grip, steering response and the practicality of two trunks from the mid-engine layout remains.

The engine note may be going in a direction that many current Porsche owners don't appreciate, but this may not be a deal breaker for new buyers.

The bump in pricing concerns me and as an owner that likes to take his car to the track, I'd be reluctant to be an early adapter of the 718 unit it's clear the heat management concerns have been handled properly. After reading how many people have gotten burned on some of the new uber models recently released--Z06/GT350 come to mind first--because they would overheat at the track, I'd like to see some evidence that the car can handle 4/25 minute sessions at a DE w/o going into a limp mode.

Regarding your 996TT Marc, what soured you on the car?

that well. That kiind of extra margin in cooling costs drag and weight and money. The older 2 radiator models need a 3rd radiator and the 3 radiator models need a 4th radiator, a better oil cooler, or both. 'course I could be wrong and the new 718 has lots of cooling margin. Time will tell.

The Turbo...It has been in some ways a big disappointment. I bought it in 2009 with just 10K miles and with a 2 year, 100K mile warranty. Since the car had such low miles I considered it "new" (even though it was 6 years old) but felt the CPO warranty as nearly as good as the 4 year warranty.

Well, the CPO certainly came in handy. Busted shifter. (The Boxster shifter is riginal at over 302K miles.) Failed radiator fan motor shaft. Bad idler/tensioner rollers. Leaking transmission. Clutch accumulator and clutch slave cylinder. Ok. Some of these were common with the car. The clutch accumulator and slave cylinder for example. But bad idler/tensioner rollers? The set in my Boxster are original. A snapped radiator fan motor shaft? What the heck is up with that? The leaky transmission was replaced and the leak was gone and the replacement transmission is much better. I suspect the orignal one would have developed other problems had it not been replaced so the orignal's oil leak and subsequent replacement was probably a blessing in disguise.

Ok, the 2 year warranty expired in June of 2011 with IIRC a bit over 50K miles on the car. I figured I was in the clear. My 2002 Boxster went quite a number of miles beyond 50K with no problems.

But not the Turbo. In no particular order: Another set of idler/tensioner roller bearings. That's 2 sets now if you are keeping score. Water pump. Ok this is a wear item, but it only lasted to around 120K miles. The Boxster's lasted 172K miles. RMS. Boxster's replaced under warranty at 25K miles and has remained oil tight ever since. Figured the 2003 Turbo had to have the right RMS since the Turbo was built *after* the replacement RMS in the Boxster was installed. Front diff axle flange seals. (The AWD system is a bunch of heavy practically useless hardware as far as I'm concerned. The 997 AWD system though is much better.) All 3 radiators developed leaks at 130K miles and had to be replaced. (The Boxster radiators are original, well, one is. The driver's side was replaced after it was damaged by impacting some road debris a long time ago.) Radiator ducts kept very clean, too. Spoiler hydraulics started leaking and the spoiler didn't go up/down right. Spoiler system in the Boxster is orignal and works just fine. Power steering tank replaced to replace a built in bypass valve that emitted a high pitched whistle. The rear view mirror even leaked and had to be replaced.

Sure the car runs very well. (Make that very very well. Amazing (make that scary) levels of power/acceleration). Handling is quite good. Maybe not quite on par with the Boxster but heck the Boxster has that mid-engine layout and that is hard to beat. The Turbo has a better view out than the Boxster. The Turbo is a very comfortable car to drive. So's the Boxster, but the Turbo has more interior cabin space. This provides more room to move the seat way back and recline and stretch out and take a break on long drives. Those bi-xenon headlights are the real deal once one is away from street lighting. I'm always amazed when I'm out on the open highway late at night how good the headlights are and then I turn on the high beams and I am amazed at how far out the headlights can reach. The headlights really light up the road. I love the rain sensing wipers and the self-dimming mirrors. The seat memory is nice too. Of course these are options that are available for the Boxster. Not the Boxster's fault I selected a rather bare bones car.

The Turbo engine runs cooler than the Boxster engine. The Boxster engine is not an overheater and has never had a problem even in very high ambient temperatures. But coolant temperatures under similar conditions are lower in the Turbo and the A/C system doesn't seem to work as hard to keep the cabin at 72F even in 118F heat. This is due primarly to much better aerodynamics and much better cooling, helped in part by 3 radiators vs. the Boxster's 2. The Turbo has the "legendary" Mezger engine and true dry sump oiling. 'course the Boxster oiling system has been just fine all these years and (so far) the Boxster engine hasn't manifested any of the horrible problems that more than a few Boxster and 996 owners have had the bad luck to experience.

Tire life between both cars is about the same. But the Turbo tires are quite a bit more money than the Boxster tires. 18" vs. 17" and oh those 11" wide rear Turbo tires are big. Turbo brake life pretty darn good. 120K miles from the front discs/pads. I think the rears could last nearly double that. (Cast iron brakes, too.)

The Turbo is harder on batteries. Even with regular -- almost every other day -- use the Turbo's battery just doesn't seem to last as long as the same (believe it or not) battery in the Boxster. Next tiome the Turbo needs a battery I'm going to look into installing a larger one, as long as I can find one that fits in the battery box properly and has the terminals in the right locations.

Guess I got spoiled with the Boxster. While it has had a few problems over the years, they have come from the miles. I mean the water pump, fuel pump. coolant tank, a wheel bearing, some door/window hardware, the plastic window and then the top, and the passenger side VarioCam solenoid/actuator, oh and 3 AOS's (can't forget those) these are all things -- well, except maybe the VarioCam solenoid/actuator -- I sort of expected given the miles.

I guess in a sentence or two the under CPO warranty problems, the under 50K mile problems, were bad enough. I hadn't really expected any problems -- my Boxster had none other than the leaking RMS in its first nearly 80K miles -- but as I mentioned above the Turbo was "new" with under 50K miles so I could I guess forgive it for the problems. But the problems after the car was out of CPO warranty were just in my opinion uncalled for. The Boxster has been and continues to be a heck of a car. The Turbo... not so much.

Too bad about the 996TT; those cars seem to be in demand these days and it looks like they sell for a good buck.

A friend just picked up a 2002 TT that had the FWD portion removed, as the previous owner had it set up like a GT2 track car--suspension/engine mods, roll cage, racing seats/ harness.
The car only had 19K --and given the stiffness of the suspension, they were probably all track miles.

If you decide to go with a 718CS I'm thinking you'll be happy with the car if you're ok with the engine noise coming out of it. The 981 CS was a sweet car--we drove a GTS at a Porsche event and thought it was a hoot--so the new CS should be an even better driver's car.

BTW, have you sworn off muscle cars yet? The Camaro/Mustang/Challenger all look pretty good and have big V8's but save the Mustang , the prices have gotten really high--$45-50K. We looked at a V6 Camaro before we decided on the Mustang and it was a sweet car,but visibility looked problematic and the price for the car with a few options seemed crazy high. For the same price or less, we could have gotten a base Mustang GT.

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MikenOH
Too bad about the 996TT; those cars seem to be in demand these days and it looks like they sell for a good buck.

A friend just picked up a 2002 TT that had the FWD portion removed, as the previous owner had it set up like a GT2 track car--suspension/engine mods, roll cage, racing seats/ harness.
The car only had 19K --and given the stiffness of the suspension, they were probably all track miles.

If you decide to go with a 718CS I'm thinking you'll be happy with the car if you're ok with the engine noise coming out of it. The 981 CS was a sweet car--we drove a GTS at a Porsche event and thought it was a hoot--so the new CS should be an even better driver's car.

BTW, have you sworn off muscle cars yet? The Camaro/Mustang/Challenger all look pretty good and have big V8's but save the Mustang , the prices have gotten really high--$45-50K. We looked at a V6 Camaro before we decided on the Mustang and it was a sweet car,but visibility looked problematic and the price for the car with a few options seemed crazy high. For the same price or less, we could have gotten a base Mustang GT.

Won't know until I have had a chance to hear a new Boxster/Cayman from behind the wheel, but I'm not sure I care what the car sounds like as long as I can't hear it. I'm not a big fan of cars so loud the exhaust noise gets into the cabin. With my Boxster I hear intake noise at high RPMs, not exhaust noise. With the Turbo it is so fast under hard acceleration I don't have the time to listen, I have to focus on driving the car.

I haven't sworn off muscle cars entirely. I really liked the GTO but stupid GM and its lousy servicing -- techs taking the car out for a "spin" on their lunch break and or doing donuts in the back lot of the dealer -- has eliminated GM from my list of car brands I'd ever own again. That lousy servicing cost GM big time as I spent nearly $120K on cars since then and not one dime at GM dealer for a GM product. Instead of trading the GTO for a Cayman S I could have kept it and bought a Corvette. Stupid GM. And my tax dollars bailed that crummy company and its lousy dealer network out. Stupid GM. And stupid government.

My Mustang experience was pretty bad. The car was in the shop more often than it was on my driveway the first 30K miles. Ford qualty sucked. Ford servicing sucked. No more Fords.

That leaves Dodge. I was actively shopping for a Dodge Challenger R/T with the Scat Pack when I was out of work then when I went back to work I paused any new car shopping to focus on work. I search for examples every now and then as kind a of way of testing the water but I'm not yet serious about buying one. I even visited a local Dodge dealer a few weekends ago after hours and walked around the lot. All the models I might be interested in had some kind of dealer markup applied but that doesn't bother me. For a serious buyer I think the markup and then some would disappear faster than a sensitive email on Hilary's email server.

I'm in no hurry. And I could just keep the cars I currently have. With my parents gone I am not driving the big miles several times a year to vsiit them and when I retire -- not for a few more years -- my work commute miles will disappear and my miles driven per year will drop quite a bit. Who knows? Maybe after some years the big miles on the Boxster will become just average miles assuming I own it for say another 20 years...

The big advantage of buying a new car is that you get to order it exactly to your specs. You might find a deal on an in stock car if you can find one (nationwide) that is very close to what you want. The 9A1 engine now has a proven record of reliability. I understand your feelings about GM, but I have not had a bad experience here in Minnesota. My Corvette was purchased new in 2008 and my factory (extended) warranty will expire in September 2017. The GM extended warranty allows a combination of miles and time. Airplane tickets are cheap compared to the cost of a new Cayman, and I encourage you to at least look at a nationwide search to explore options comparing a 718 to a new 981. If you want to take a chance on the new turbocharged 4 cylinder, I keep thinking of the Clint Eastwood bit: " Do you feel lucky, Kid?"

is to shop globally but buy locally.

If I decide I want a 6-cylinder Cayman while I would initially seek cars any distance from my ZIP code -- to get a feel for the supply and prices -- I think I could find a perfect for me car locally. Locally though means 5 or 6 Porsche dealers within a 50 mile drive from my house. Then the very highly rated -- one of the top 3 dealers I think -- Niello Porsche dealer in Rocklin CA is around 110 miles from where I live. There are a number of Porsche dealers down south, too. An hour's flight away.

I would probably talk myself out of buying the 1st MY of the new 4-cylinder Cayman as I am concerned about 1st year issues. It has been another of my new/used car buying recommendations to when possible buy an example from later in the MY run, from the 2nd year on and the best MY to own is often the last one before the model receives a make over/redo.

More likely though what I'll do is just leave the money in the bank and continue to drive what I have now. Just drove the Boxster Tuesday and Wednesday back/forth to work and I can't believe how well it runs. Today I used the Turbo for my work commute and the Turbo runs just fine, too. Hard to imagine a newer Porsche would be that much better to justify the outlay of considerable cash to own one.

I can't disagree with any of your points, however this would be your last chance to pick up a new Cayman with the six cylinder. There have been a lot of improvements over your 986 which I am sure you are well aware of.