Re: Article suggests that small displacement turbo motors are going to be replaced in the EU market

[www.reuters.com]

Not hitting NOX or mileage numbers required with new emission testing methods.

Seems to suggest hybrids will be the future for high mileage cars rather than diesels.

It just confirms the Canadian test results with the 4 cylinder turbo getting worse gas mileage than the NA 6.

So, it sounds like the automakers will have a heck of a dilemma to get certification--wack NOx emissions and raise mileage, while still provide a power plant that will move the car along.
IIRC, CO2 emissions track mileage--less gasoline burned, less CO2; NOx--I'm not sure; is this a product of the burning of diesel fuel with a turbo motor or does this occur with the same frequency with gasoline powered turbo-engines?

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MikenOH
So, it sounds like the automakers will have a heck of a dilemma to get certification--wack NOx emissions and raise mileage, while still provide a power plant that will move the car along.
IIRC, CO2 emissions track mileage--less gasoline burned, less CO2; NOx--I'm not sure; is this a product of the burning of diesel fuel with a turbo motor or does this occur with the same frequency with gasoline powered turbo-engines?

is used in diesel and gasoline engines. When exhaust gas re-circulation is active -- only at lower engine speeds -- this lowers combustion temperature which reduces NOx production.

I've heard that one of the options Porsche may be considering is the removal of the turbos from the 718 engines, and modifying the software and hardware (pistons, cylinder head, cams and valve timing) to extract whatever additional power they can from the NA fours.

Another option apparently being considered is a return to the 6 cylinder engine, but considerably less displacement.

already? That would be a quick admission of failure. Smaller displacement 6 with turbos would be inline with the sports car lineup for Porsche.

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db997S
already? That would be a quick admission of failure. Smaller displacement 6 with turbos would be inline with the sports car lineup for Porsche.

There may be two challenges:

1. Once a turbo and its hardware are added, Porsche's current sixes are physically too large to fit in the Boxster's engine space. Maybe they could design a physically smaller 6? But would that make sense? ;

2. As soon as the driver seeks 'spirited' acceleration, the turbo-charged engine consumes gas at much the same rate as a larger NA engine.

As Mike notes below, VW's shenanigans brought a bright spotlight on fuel consumption generally. The outcome might turn out to be a real game-changer, or to use what seems to be the current nomenclature, a 'paradigm-shift'.

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Roger987
I've heard that one of the options Porsche may be considering is the removal of the turbos from the 718 engines, and modifying the software and hardware (pistons, cylinder head, cams and valve timing) to extract whatever additional power they can from the NA fours.

Another option apparently being considered is a return to the 6 cylinder engine, but considerably less displacement.

While I believe you have heard this I don't give it much chance of happening.

Porsche needs the smaller engines to help meet CO2 emisssion/fuel consumption targets -- targets that are politcally/idealogy driven but I won't say more as I don't want to get this moved to off topic.

To get to these targets smaller engines are required. Not only smaller in displacement but with fewer cylinders. Fewer cylinders reduces internal engine friction which becomes more important as the CO2 target becomes lower and the MPG target becomes higher.

But to avoid putting an engine into a sports car that would have the car unable to get out of its own way the only real way Porsche can obtain the performance from these smaller engines is with turbo (or super) charging.

To recoup the HP lost by removing the Turbos would require substantial engine changes/tuning which would make the engines much more peakier in power delivery and pretty much destroy their drivability. Really in this case less -- as in the removal of the turbo -- would really be less.

I doubt Porsche would bring back a 6-cylinder engine for the Boxster/Cayman even it is was a smaller engine. There are several reasons why this is unlikely. One is even with a smaller displacement more cylinder more valve hardware internal engine friction would go up. Two is it would kill the market for the 4-cylinder examples, unless of course the 6-cylinder models sucked which they likely would.

And with the smaller displacement engine Porsche would still have to meet its hp/torque targets. So this would result in a more radically tuned engine that would be less enjoyable to drive.

The real solution is to leave the CO2/fuel economy numbers alone. Vehicle emissions never accounted for that much anyhow. The only reason vehicles were caught up in this in the first place was when the power generating plant operators -- the electric companies -- were told to clean up emissions they started pointing fingers at automobiles. Politicians never missing an opportunity to extend control over people jumped on this. It has progressed to the point that the very "air" living creatures exhale -- CO2 -- is now classified as a "dangerous" emission and subject to bureaucratic control.

Modern passenger vehicles -- at least those sold in the USA/Canada, UK, EU, Japan, Australia markets -- are pretty darn clean and energy efficient. Instead of tightening emissions for these vehicles require vehicles sold world-wide adhere to the same clean emissions standards. Instead the new Paris Agreement on Climate Change lets most smaller countries off the hook and in fact will require an "ambitious" transfer of money from the large "polluters" to these countries.

Emissions/pollution concerns have morphed into wealth redistribution. Kind of getting afield a bit but there is already talk of how "poor" people won't be able to afford self-driving cars and you can bet at some point there'll be a government program to supply the poor with self-driving cars at your and my expense. We not only will have to buy are own but buy for other people too.

seems to be with the tests not predicting well the results in the real world. So there is pressure to change the tests in the EU and to test car on a random basis rather than a single car being predictive of all those of similar engine. Kinda like the tests that caught the VW real world problems but without the cheating. But that incident caused a focus on how cars really performed. And guess what, smaller wasn't better.

Pity the investment committee in an auto company trying to pick what engine technology to invest in today for their 10 year from now vehicles.

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mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
seems to be with the tests not predicting well the results in the real world. So there is pressure to change the tests in the EU and to test car on a random basis rather than a single car being predictive of all those of similar engine. Kinda like the tests that caught the VW real world problems but without the cheating. But that incident caused a focus on how cars really performed. And guess what, smaller wasn't better.

Pity the investment committee in an auto company trying to pick what engine technology to invest in today for their 10 year from now vehicles.

the tests do not reflect real world usage. Well, I'm sure a few owners drive like the test cycles but only a few. What I know about the test cycles is to me to drive like the test requires is hard on the engine because it operates the engine at a very low RPM under high load. This is great for reducing engine friction, oil pump loss, coolant pump loss, and intake pumping loss because the throttle butterfly valve being open more than it would be otherwise. But it is a lousy way to drive a sports car which is why most owners get quite different fuel economy.

"but I won't say more as I don't want to get this moved to off topic."

Like anyone's going to boot your posts....

:-)

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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MarcW
Vehicle emissions never accounted for that much anyhow. The only reason vehicles were caught up in this in the first place was when the power generating plant operators -- the electric companies -- were told to clean up emissions they started pointing fingers at automobiles. Politicians never missing an opportunity to extend control over people jumped on this. It has progressed to the point that the very "air" living creatures exhale -- CO2 -- is now classified as a "dangerous" emission and subject to bureaucratic control.

Oh wait, lets solve the problem by chargign our cars from coal-burning electric plants. Won;t that help?

Sorry

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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grant

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MarcW
Vehicle emissions never accounted for that much anyhow. The only reason vehicles were caught up in this in the first place was when the power generating plant operators -- the electric companies -- were told to clean up emissions they started pointing fingers at automobiles. Politicians never missing an opportunity to extend control over people jumped on this. It has progressed to the point that the very "air" living creatures exhale -- CO2 -- is now classified as a "dangerous" emission and subject to bureaucratic control.

Oh wait, lets solve the problem by chargign our cars from coal-burning electric plants. Won;t that help?

Sorry

Too funny; I wonder how many electric car owners know or care what the source of their electricity is for charging their cars?
Wouldn't you think it would be possible--depending on where the power was generated--to determine the CO2 produced during the generation of the power at the plant vs. that emitted from a similar sized IC engine?

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MikenOH

Too funny; I wonder how many electric car owners know or care what the source of their electricity is for charging their cars?
Wouldn't you think it would be possible--depending on where the power was generated--to determine the CO2 produced during the generation of the power at the plant vs. that emitted from a similar sized IC engine?

Geez, Mike, any savvy electric car owner knows where the source of their power is. It's that plug at the end of the driveway or wall of the garage. That stuff is free. I've seen the free charging stations at a few places we've stayed.

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grant

Oh wait, lets solve the problem by chargign our cars from coal-burning electric plants. Won;t that help?

Sorry

Hey, you're forgetting about nuclear power plants. Maybe expand the facilities at Three Mile Island.

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grant

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MarcW
Vehicle emissions never accounted for that much anyhow. The only reason vehicles were caught up in this in the first place was when the power generating plant operators -- the electric companies -- were told to clean up emissions they started pointing fingers at automobiles. Politicians never missing an opportunity to extend control over people jumped on this. It has progressed to the point that the very "air" living creatures exhale -- CO2 -- is now classified as a "dangerous" emission and subject to bureaucratic control.

Oh wait, lets solve the problem by chargign our cars from coal-burning electric plants. Won;t that help?

Sorry

No need to apologize. Just so it is clear I'm no proponent of electric cars. Their highly touted small carbon footprint is a lie, driven by a political agenda. But an effective lie. 300K+ wanna be electric car owners forked over $1000/each to Telsa to be put on a list for the new 3 model. They better hope the car shows up. Tesla has spent the money helping keep the doors open, oh and buying a solar panel company Solar City, of which Elon Musk is the chairman Solar City (and of course Tesla) and the CEO is a cousin of Musk's.

Makes sense since NA engines these days have become so efficient, with the exception of the Hemi. Those things are gas hogs when compared to similar engines form other makes.

... this happens.
I wrote this article over a year ago.
It explains why: [pedrosgarage.com]
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

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