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On top of the "major service" fee (plugs and filters changed), front pads/rotors/sensors need to be replaced, need new tires (extreme inside edge of rears were gone), I decided to replace tire pressure monitors at same time (8 years old), and an alignment. Think the tab is going to be around $8K, but not final. Hope to get a nice PCA member discount, though. Now, just have to break the news to my wife.
That sounds about triple what I would have estimated.

Who you should tell is the police. I think you're being robbed.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
You can save a ton of money by doing some of it yourself and using an indie rather than a dealer. Front rotors and pads are easy to replace, tires you can get from TireRack, and alignments can be done by any tire shop with road force alignments system.

If you are slightly more adventurous you can do the "major" service yourself.
to be unable to properly align my 2006 GTO. The front tires were shot in hardly any time. I can only imagine (and shudder) at the outcome had I taken my Boxster there.

If one doesn't want to have the algnment done at the dealer an indy tire shop might be ok but it has to be one that comes highly recommended by other Porsche owners who have had good results.
As Marc says - a shop that is highly recommended is your best test. And talk to them, ask how they align, and make sure they know what you want.
For example: my alignment is well outside factory specs. On purpose - its a track alignment and I understand the trade offs (handling for wear and tamlining)

Anyone can buy the equipment.

Anyone can hang a sensor

Anyone can read
Anyone can adjust an eccentric.

but you have to a) care, b) double check, and c) know what those numbers mean.

I've had awesome $80 alignments and lousy $200 ones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 10:54AM by grant. (view changes)

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
I know indies are cheaper, but none are as convenient as my dealer. It would take a bunch of coordination to get it all worked out. Yeah, I know, the price savings might have made it worthwhile, but I thought I had plenty of tread left on my tires. Like I said, the wear was on the extreme inside maybe half-inch. The tech put the car on the lift and showed my how bad they were. My Carrera has freakishly wide rears (I want to say 11 or 12 inches). I try and check them from time to time with my eye as well as using my fingers (tread depth). Just didn't go far enough to feel the smoothness of the inside of the tire. Lesson learned. Plus, my TPM sensors are at the age where they more than likely need to be replaced very soon, anyway (best to do it during a tire change). Again, lots of coordination. I do not have the tools or space for brake work, plus, I don't like DIY for such an important safety feature. The DIY work I do on my house, looks like it is DIY work. And, I love, love, love the braking on these cars. My wife always has to remind me when I drive her Prius that it's not my car.

I did get a 2018 Panamara 4 as a loaner. After driving Boxsters and a Carrera as my daily ride for almost 20 years, the Panamera is a huge car, in comparison. Didn't realize how much so. Even with that size, the door is narrow. I have to get my left shoulder past the B-pillar before getting out of the car, or else its like the Three Stooges bit where all three try and get through a doorway at the same time. And, speaking of the B-Pillar, my God, is that thing obscenely large. Checking over your shoulder before changing lanes is useless. It's like turning your head and having a wall two inches from your nose. The technology is way too much, as well. I have no idea how to turn off the radio, as all functions are on the touchscreen. All the buttons on the center console are no longer buttons. You simply press the word or icon on the smooth, black glass console to engage the feature. Very distracting while driving--finding the button, and then moving to the touch screen to do adjust whatever it is that needs adjusting. And, the steering wheel functions. Again, way too many and you have to look at them for too long while driving. The back-up assist is obnoxious. I have a narrow driveway, and backing down it is nothing but warning dings and bongs. The headlights are pretty sweet. The work well, but also look really cool. That being said, the car does drive great. Much better than the Macan loan I got last time I brought my car in for service. Just not an SUV person, so, there is that. I thought the Macan might change that, but it only re-enforced it. Too jerky/bouncy of a ride quality.
Quote
db997S
I know indies are cheaper, but none are as convenient as my dealer. It would take a bunch of coordination to get it all worked out. Yeah, I know, the price savings might have made it worthwhile, but I thought I had plenty of tread left on my tires. Like I said, the wear was on the extreme inside maybe half-inch. The tech put the car on the lift and showed my how bad they were. My Carrera has freakishly wide rears (I want to say 11 or 12 inches). I try and check them from time to time with my eye as well as using my fingers (tread depth). Just didn't go far enough to feel the smoothness of the inside of the tire. Lesson learned. Plus, my TPM sensors are at the age where they more than likely need to be replaced very soon, anyway (best to do it during a tire change). Again, lots of coordination. I do not have the tools or space for brake work, plus, I don't like DIY for such an important safety feature. The DIY work I do on my house, looks like it is DIY work. And, I love, love, love the braking on these cars. My wife always has to remind me when I drive her Prius that it's not my car.

I did get a 2018 Panamara 4 as a loaner. After driving Boxsters and a Carrera as my daily ride for almost 20 years, the Panamera is a huge car, in comparison. Didn't realize how much so. Even with that size, the door is narrow. I have to get my left shoulder past the B-pillar before getting out of the car, or else its like the Three Stooges bit where all three try and get through a doorway at the same time. And, speaking of the B-Pillar, my God, is that thing obscenely large. Checking over your shoulder before changing lanes is useless. It's like turning your head and having a wall two inches from your nose. The technology is way too much, as well. I have no idea how to turn off the radio, as all functions are on the touchscreen. All the buttons on the center console are no longer buttons. You simply press the word or icon on the smooth, black glass console to engage the feature. Very distracting while driving--finding the button, and then moving to the touch screen to do adjust whatever it is that needs adjusting. And, the steering wheel functions. Again, way too many and you have to look at them for too long while driving. The back-up assist is obnoxious. I have a narrow driveway, and backing down it is nothing but warning dings and bongs. The headlights are pretty sweet. The work well, but also look really cool. That being said, the car does drive great. Much better than the Macan loan I got last time I brought my car in for service. Just not an SUV person, so, there is that. I thought the Macan might change that, but it only re-enforced it. Too jerky/bouncy of a ride quality.

Been awhile since I used an indy, back in early 2015 for new O2 sensors in my 996. Wasn't that much cheaper and I had to wait at the shop for hours while the car was being worked on.
No shuttle ride to my house and I was 10 miles away so a cab ride back and forth would have cost me. I was out of work at the time so I could "afford" to just wait but had I been working no way.

Haven't driven a Panamera yet. My loaners have been Cayennes (I like these and if I needed an SUV I'd certainly consider one), Macans (pretty good, smaller than a Cayenne), and an assortment of Audi sedans. (The owners of the Porsche dealer also own nearby nearly next door Audi dealer (and Honda, Jaguar, and Subaru dealers, too.)

Not a fan of the parking sensors (?) that warn of impending "crash". They beep when I park in my car port space from I guess the cars parked on either side, or the uprights that hold up the roof of the carport. They beep when I park at work from either the cars on either side or the bushes. They sound an alarm when entering/exiting most driveways.

And don't get me started about the lane warning system.
Ha, ha...Panamera Laugh
fgv1it - Monday at 2:39:44 pm
You made me laugh with your description of the Panamera. I have a 2017 4S, and it took me oh, about three months before I figured out how to turn off the radio. Surprisingly, it is one function that is NOT on the touch screen or the touch buttons in the center console. You simply hold the volume button (a real, physical button) down for about two seconds, and the whole PCM turns off. The other stuff, yeah, it can be a little overwhelming at first, but you do get used to it. After a while, you appreciate the performance of the car, and all the convenience that comes with the tech.
Damn - I hope you at least get a holiday card from your dealer! Guessing you could have personally flown in Pedro, sourced all the parts from TireRack and AutohausAZ, and celebrated with a nice bottle of Scotch to boot for less than half the price. Round my area (Boston ) we are blessed with multiple highly competent independent shops so I never need to visit the $tealer except to leer at new cars I'll never buy.... winking smiley
My take on "fair"price:

Parts:
plugs $50.00 total
pads $125.00/set
rotors: $250.00/pr
brake fluid: $20
sensors $25.00
tires: $1250.00/4 (you got 4?) <-- big question, what size tires - this could vary +100%/-30%
filters: $50.00
Oil: $80.00 8@$10/qt
pressure sensors - dunno $200.00?/all

total: $2050.00 (tires > 50%)

Labor:
plugs 1.5 hours $185.00
pads/rotors/bleed: 1.5 hours $185.00
oil change & checks 1 hour $125.00
filters: 0.5 hour $65.00
mount,balance tires 2 hours $250.00 (generous!)
sensors: extra 0.5 hours while doing tires $65.00
Misc: 1 hour $125.00

total: $1,000.00 with slop

$3,050.00 @ $125/hour and retail prices (twice what I would pay mostly)

G



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 07:56AM by grant. (view changes)

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
Main Highlights:

Plugs: $38.43 ea or $230.58 for six
Oil: 0W40 9 Qrts $76.77 ($8.53 ea)
Oil Filter $44.13
O-Ring $15.93

Wiper Blade $73.30
Air Filters $160.20
Cabin Filter $94.19
Fuel Additive $29.43

Front pads: $375.30
Front brake disks $332.80 ea ($665.60 total for front disks)
Cable, Wear Indicator $82.65
Break Wear indicator $80.20
Spring Clip Kit $88.21
4 Damping Panel $28.92 ea ($115.68 total)
4 Cheese-HD Screw $13.44 ea ($53.76 total)
brake fluid: Not shown on receipt

2 tires 235/35ZR19 $257.68 ea or $515.36;
2 tires 295/30ZR19 $378.83 ea or $757.66
Balance and Mount Tires: $340
Tire Pressure Sensors: $205.24 ea or $820.96
Alignment: $375

Top Treatment/preservative $203.45

Labor $3,118.75 (Forget the going rate/hr, possibly $125/hr???)
Parts: $4,698.73
Shop/other $101
Discount $247.33
Sales tax $282.64
Unfortunately, I don't see that there would be that much difference at first glance. Thanks for the detailed rundown of the costs.

Steve
... WOW!!!!!!!!!

Happy Boxstering
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla 1998 Boxster 986 - 280,000+ miles: http://www.PedrosGarage.com
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Wow! That's expensive even by Canadian pricing.

Just checked 2 parts at Suncoast (OEM 997 Porsche parts)
Spark plugs $120 for a set of 6 vs. $230
Oil filter $22 (which includes the O ring) vs $60 you were charged for those items
...hmmmm Shop/other $101 - is this a round of lattes and truffles for the mechanics?
Ouch!
grant - Thursday at 6:32:33 am
Let's just start with $16.00 for a 25 cent o-ring ( that i have now re-used for 13 years).
An oil filter @ $45 that can be had all day for $11 and I buy (amazon) for $6
and the list goes on

.. and continue with an important safety and longevity item - new brake fluid - that they omitted.

So a great combination of poor service and over-charging.

Run, dont walk, elsewhere.

Grant



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2017 06:33AM by grant. (view changes)

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
Quote
db997S
On top of the "major service" fee (plugs and filters changed), front pads/rotors/sensors need to be replaced, need new tires (extreme inside edge of rears were gone), I decided to replace tire pressure monitors at same time (8 years old), and an alignment. Think the tab is going to be around $8K, but not final. Hope to get a nice PCA member discount, though. Now, just have to break the news to my wife.

If you got 8 years out of the TPMS's you did very well. Local dealer SM tells me people come in for new tires and the TPMS are 4+ years old and still "working" ok and the customer declines to have them replaced when the new tires are fitted. Often the customer is back shortly wtih at least one (or more) no longer working ok and wanting to blame the tech for doing something to the sensor(s).

Be sure you get a *before* and *after* printout of the car's alignment. The rear toe is out and that causes that inner edge tire wear. My cars get aligned and when done correctly with the right toe in I can get 20K+ miles from the rear tires and tread wear across the face of the tread is even. Even with this more tire life friendly toe setting the car is very stable at speed or at other times.

If not too late when you take the car in for the service have the gas tank filled up. The alignment guidelines in my factory references call for the gas tank to be filled up, the spare tire/tool kit present and properly stored and any extra weight some owners burden their cars with removed.
Before:

Fronts: camber left (-0.6) and right (-0.4) both in green; toe left (-0.14) and right (-0.18) both in red; total toe 0.05 (green); and steer Ahead -0.16 red
Rears: camber left (-1.5) and right (-1.5), which are both green; toe left (0.84) and right (-0.15) both in red; Total toe 0.69 red; and Thrust Angle 0.49 red

After (all green):
Fronts: camber left (-0.6) and right (-0.4); toe left (0.02) and right (0.02); total toe 0.04; and steer Ahead 0.00
Rears: camber left (-1.5) and right (-1.6); toe left (0.15) and right (0.14); Total toe 0.29; and Thrust Angle 0.01

Tank was 3/4 full of gas and my '09 is sans spare tire.
Fronts: camber left (-0.6) and right (-0.4); toe left (0.02) and right (0.02); total toe 0.04; and steer Ahead 0.00
Rears: camber left (-1.5) and right (-1.6); toe left (0.15) and right (0.14); Total toe 0.29; and Thrust Angle 0.01


Don't have handy any of my Boxster alignment results but I have a digital copy of one from my Turbo..

I'll just post the afters...

Front:
Camber: 0.0 (left); 0.0 (right)
Toe: 0.04; 0.05
Total Toe: 0.09

Rear:
Camber: -1.4; -1.4
Toe: 0.17; 0.15
Total Toe: 0.32

Based on what you posted the before numbers clearly showed some alignment settings were off. The after numbers appear to be very much on the money. Based on my experience I'd say going forward tire life should be very good and tire wear even across the tread faces.
Did you ask for zero front camber?
grant - Thursday at 6:35:07 am
.. The rest of the world is desperately trying to get more than is mechanically allowed.....

Even for street driving i would think they would try for at least -0.5deg if possible.
Maybe the turbo has some odd difference, but in general, wheels are wheels.

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
Quote
grant
.. The rest of the world is desperately trying to get more than is mechanically allowed.....

Even for street driving i would think they would try for at least -0.5deg if possible.
Maybe the turbo has some odd difference, but in general, wheels are wheels.

Nope. All I asked for was an alignment that would produce good tire life and not compromise the car's handling or road manners in any way shape or form when used to get the groceries or when hauling the mail so to speak down an empty desert highway or when enjoying the car on a nice curvy mountain road. IOWs give me my usual alignment.

The allowable range for front camber is -0.3 degs. to 0.3 degs. 0.0 degs is smack dab in the middle.

The rest of the world seeking negative front camber for the street is just the rest of the world seeking a twitchy car which most equate to a better handling car which is not the case. It is just a twitchy car.

As I often do, at least 5 days a week twice a day, and that is driving the speed limit/plus in heavy high speed freeway traffic with just a few narrow feet separating my car from adjacent vehicles in either lane the last thing I want is a twitchy car.
Let's over simplify. When you are going straight or turning slightly, you need little grip. When you are corning hard, you need lots of grip. So, when you optimize, an aggressive (underline that) driver should make trade-offs to optimize for hgih-G situations.

In high G situations the suspension, and in particular the tire's rubber, will go positive camber - meaning the outside edge becomes the contact patch. Many of us see the evidence of this on our front tires' outside edge. Since at the limit tires are non-newtonian, grip is limited by shear (over simplification). By adding negative camber this patch is increased. Camber is also used for corning stability on everything from skis, to feet --- to tires.

So, for grocery getting, zero is the proper answer. But it's a porsche for heavens sake, bought, i hope, for performance driving, at least sometimes. The sometimes part brings me back to the trade-off and which shoudl take priority.

Now, as to twitchy. I do find hgih camber tramlines, but on decent roads they are not twitchy, to me. My station wagon has nearly -2 degrees all around. My track car has nearly -3 (F). While its a track car I drive it 10k miles/year to and from tracks. It's actually great - except -- big except -- when the road surface gets tram-lined or very choppy. Then you are right, it tugs left and right. To some degree I'll note, its telling truth. I like truth.

For mixed driving i'd want at least 0.5 neg and i doubt it would tramline.

G

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
speaking of high-G situations. The Panamera that I got as a loaner had an option on the instrument panel to show G-Force. Interesting, but odd since you'd want eyes looking at where you are going during such extreme situations. It was only a V-6 car. Would like to see what it's like in a Turbo with launch control.


Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
front pads/rotors/sensors should be about $1300 at a dealer. Instead I went to an excellent independent and had done with OEM parts for about $1100. This was for an '01 base with 17" wheels.
And for a comparison
grant - Friday at 6:49:13 am
OK, apples to oranges in some ways, but standard 17" 986S stuff (S nto base)

rotors, textar $72.00/ea
pads, textar (OEM formulation), $68.00/set (Front)
sensors (shorted ages ago, $25/pair most places)
brake fluid $15 ate super 200 > 500 deg BP
about 2 hours of my time, working slowly and carefully, most of it jacking, checking, cleaning, waiting for fluid to flush.

So there's margin in them thar hills.

Porsche branded stuff, generally made by the same firm(s) is about twice that.

Grnt

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
Just spent over $4k on my 9-yr old Audi A4 at the stealership for a new evap valve, coolant temp sensor, front control arm bushing replacement, new wipers, battery, and 4 new tires. I know...tires and battery I coulda gotten elsewhere, but wanted the convenience of just dropping my car off at one place, getting a loaner, and then picking up when all done. I have a neighbor who buys his new cars and then says he never takes them back to the dealer after driving off the lot, as he likes to do all his own work. When I told him what I just paid to get work on my Audi, he let out a nice laugh.
Their caffe latte is free winking smiley

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
Quote
Gary in SoFL
Their caffe latte is free winking smiley

True! I feel better now!
How much was the evaporation valve replacement? I just had it done on my wife's Hyundai and it was about $400 total.
Quote
boxsterd
How much was the evaporation valve replacement? I just had it done on my wife's Hyundai and it was about $400 total.

Evap purge valve replacement on the Audi was about $200 parts and labor, but I had a preferred sucker (I mean customer) discount of 15% parts and labor on my whole bill so it came out to $162. Guess that item on my whole work item list was at least reasonable.
that's quite reasonable really...
grant - Saturday at 8:53:33 pm
i diagnosed and did that job on my S6. To be fair, i went "above and beyond" and put a lawnmover gas line filter in series with the one that clogged (after and horu of noodling that was what i found) - so mine will clog again, in, oh, 36,273 years :-)

But it was a bunch of diagnosis, and then the parts. A new valve would have been about $60? I cleaned it and added the hose and the lawnmower part for $3.22. But i had to figure that out, go to the lawnmower store, blah, blah, BAsically redesign it.

So $162 is quite fair.

The prices noted above, as I documented, are, IMNSHO, not.

G

Grant gee-lenahan-at-vee-eff-email-dot-net
I agree that it is a reasonable charge for that Evap valve replacement, although the part itself was only $30. It’s really the labor that gets ya, but I get it...that’s the price for not doing it yourself. For example, the new battery was $160, but it came out to that plus the $155 (1 hour labor) that they charged me on top of the $160 for undoing the one bolt for the retainer clip, pulling the old battery out, popping the new one in, and retightening the bolt. But hey, I got a new Audi loaner for the 2 days they had my car and never needed to take any time off work to get my car fixed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2017 06:19AM by boxtaboy. (view changes)
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