Re: Anyone Heard of Problems W/ Newer Boxsters?

I am looking at a 2009 'S' and am wondering if anyone know of any engine/transmission problems w/ the new design. I hate being an "early adopter", but this car is in my price range and has all the options I want. Thanx in advance.

A little too soon in its life to know for sure. One major flaw was desgined out of the old engine, but nobody knows at this point if that created other issues. I have an '09 997S and have much better peace of mind at this point with the car than I did with my MY '02 Boxster S, which lost an egine at 10,001 miles due to the IMS, which is the flaw that was designed out of the old engine. I've passed the 10,001 mile mark with the new car, and knock on wood, no issues with it.

Me, I just wouldn't buy one of the pre-'09 cars. If I was in the hunt for a used Boxster and couldn't afford an '09 at this point, I'd wait it out until prices came down to my territory. Many pooh-pooh the IMS issue, but once your engine dies 600 miles from home at 1:00 a.m. on a cold October early morning in Toledo, OH, you brush the naysayers off. Not sure if you've ever been to Toledo, but east of there, there ain't much of anything. If my engine died 90 minutes earlier, I could have been stranded literally, in the middle of nowhere in sub 30 degree weather at close to midnight. You do the math on why I have greater peace of mind with the new car/engine.

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db997S
Many pooh-pooh the IMS issue, but once your engine dies 600 miles from home at 1:00 a.m. on a cold October early morning in Toledo, OH, you brush the naysayers off. Not sure if you've ever been to Toledo, but east of there, there ain't much of anything. If my engine died 90 minutes earlier, I could have been stranded literally, in the middle of nowhere in sub 30 degree weather at close to midnight.

If your engine had died 90-minutes east of Toledo, you'd have been about 10-minutes from my house. I live right off I271 south of the Turnpike..."in the middle of nowhere", which is how I like it. No noise, no crime, few people.

No offense taken.

Porsche merrily sold the '97-'04 Boxsters and ('99-onward) 911s, touting the company's mythical engineering prowess all along the way. Then the reports of problems started to mount up. Porsche merrily sold the '05-'08 Boxsters, Caymans and 911s, continuing to tout its mythical engineering prowess all along the way. Then the reports of problems started to mount up. Buyers of the later vehicles assumed that any sane car company with defects in first-generation vehicles would at least have the decency to correct them in the second. Now, potential buyers of the latest vehicles assume that any sane car company with defects in first- and second-generation vehicles would have the decency to fix them in the third. How can anyone be sure, based on this track record?

... on a Porsche Board when you hate Porsche so much.
Every opportunity you have to come out swinging you do.
Let it go! Otherwise it's only going to make you more bitter than you already are.

From my perspective Porsche was proactive and fair.

My first engine failed out of warranty due to a porous block.
It was replaced by Porsche, on their dime.
Many first (and second) owners that had their engines fail also had full or partial replacements from Porsche.

After Porsche realized that there was an issue with the IMS bearing, they redesigned it at least 4 times, making it stronger and longer lasting.
Eventually they redesigned their engine to do away with what was obviously an issue.

I know that everyone who suffered a failure thinks that their world ended and time moved slowly from Porsche's perspective.
But let's say that Porsche realized that there was a major issue around the year 2001 (that's when we started to see a number of IMS bearings failing due to mileage, etc.)
It took them only 7 years to conceptualize, redesign, test and produce a completely new powerplant for our vehicles.
I think that is outstanding.

One "bright" point to this mess that many people don't see is that these engine issues also have brought the Porsche brand to new drivers that would not have been able to afford one.
It also became a great business opportunity for those smart enough to make lemonade with their lemons.
Companies such as LN Engineering and many, many small, independent shops have flourished from this "debacle" by offering a "fix" that's generally very affordable and relatively easy to perform.
I know of a couple of Boxster owners that have replaced their IMS bearing themselves in their garage with great success.

I still believe that the Boxster and all Porsches for that matter are great sport cars and I will keep buying them, and enjoy them till I can drive no more.

Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

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Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

There has been a lot written here that Porsche has not formally recognized the problem Not so. In news/update emails from my dealer to their customers, the IMS problem is directly addressed with a link to the LN site is provided.

1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson

IMO, Porsche may have realized that there was a problem with the M96 engine's IMS bearing design some time before Porsche made the decision to have dealers crate up the engines for shipping back to Germany

Cranking out massive amounts of lemonade from an onslaught of lemons is the best medicine for a problem such as the flawed IMS design.

Kudos to those who have devised solutions and who have marketed them ethically and responsibly!.

"I still believe that the Boxster and all Porsches for that matter are great sport cars and I will keep buying them, and enjoy them till I can drive no more."

Pedro: That's about as healthy an attitude to this issue as I've ever heard, and, coming from you it does not ring hollow.

I suspect that the next IMS replacement will be a lot easier, and we may even be able to eventually do one at one of the TSBL events. Now, THAT would be something to write home about!!!


Regards, Maurice.

I keep asking myself . . .
why anyone would think Porsche "outstanding" for taking years to correct a design defect, but, meanwhile, peddling less than safe cars to people like me with not a recall or even a general acknowledgement of the problem other than the whispering that takes place between individual dealers and owners.
why a manufacturer would use thousands of owners as test cases or guinea pigs while it allegedly tried to iron out the problems.
why anyone would think that partial compensation for an engine replacement -- leaving the owner stuck with a bill of $7,500 or so -- is considered an act of generosity from the company.
why anyone would think the defect and the resulting depreciation and safety/financial risk would amount to a plus for a newbie who wanted to own one of these cars (and might end up paying more for an engine replacement than the car is worth).
why anyone would spend, say, $60,000 on one of these cars and then think it's perfectly acceptable to spend a few thousand more on an aftermarket fix because the manufacturer didn't live up to its responsibilities.
why people are so thin-skinned about this issue and think that Porsche is perfect in everything it does.

As I have said before, Porsches are great . . . when they work. The manufacturer? Not so much. The only reason to think that '09 and later cars are any more reliable than prior models is because Porsche tells you so. I'm sure that they also told db997S that his car was superbly engineered before it crapped out on him at just over 10K miles.

Meanwhile, over at another site, victims are starting to file NHTSA complaints. Good for them.

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I was aware of the risk for potential major expenses before purchasing my car. Although I enjoy my car, I cannot dismiss that major issues experienced by other owners are real and haven't been solely of their own doing. My solution was to by used at a price point that, worst case, I could consider walking away from. I truly feel for those who've experienced catastrophic failures and large out of pocket expenses.

But compared to my 84 Alfa Spider this baby is a veritable Accord!

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Now, that I have to disagree with. The repair costs of an 84 Alfa Spider as a percentage of car cost far exceed that of the Boxster in pretty much every case.

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Boxsterra
Now, that I have to disagree with. The repair costs of an 84 Alfa Spider as a percentage of car cost far exceed that of the Boxster in pretty much every case.

I think that's exactly what dghii was trying to say...

Thank you.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

I seem to recall that Porsche had a problem with its chain tensioners on the 911 engines. It finally fixed the problem in 1984, 16 years later (?). The solution worked quite well.
I still wish I had my '84 White, Can can red, Carrera but I'll just struggle along with my 993tt. Give 'em some time. BTW, I have no fears with my 2000S. Mark near Chicago

I'll be looking for a base Boxster in the 2009 to 2012 MY range at some point. There is some question regarding the possible future issues with direct injection on the "S" model. The crux of it is that the valves are not cleaned with the incoming fuel air mixture on an engine with direct injection. I'll leave it to you to do your own research on the matter and come to your own conclusion. I'd be interested in your final decision.

... certainly was an issue with Mercedes Benz in 1956-58 on their 300SLs.
But today, the fuel in the DFI Porsche is atomized at 1,200 psi, allowing for almost a 100% burn and leaving no carbon deposits.
That's why you'll find very reduced emissions on DFIs vs fuel injected Porsches.
What some Cayennes have suffered from is excessive oil buildup on the valve from a faulty AOS which passes too much oil mist.
But in any case if you give it a good Italian tune every now and then, the valves will remain clean.
It's the engines that are lugged and not taken to redline that have had issues with valve buildup in general.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

>> But in any case if you give it a good Italian tune every now and then, the valves will remain clean.

LOL!!! I *sold* my '83 Alfa Spider (fun car, very reliable as the engine management was provided by Bosch L-Jet) to purchase my '01 Boxster S. Now I'm hearing I might need to do an Italian tune up every so often on the Porsche too... Of course my car regularly sees pulls to redline, so no buildup so far!

1. No more IMS. That must be good.
2. DFI - good for power, but does result in valve deposits (no mroe gas cleaning them) and oil contamination. Thsi is a known issue on all DFI engines - Audi, BMW, GM etc. But its the future.

I strongly suspect they took thsi opportunity to address many of the issue that cropepd up in the M96. Most designers are itching top address the weaknesses of any design before its iout the door. I am. Despite the many compaints - those motors had many good points and were very durable - many go 200k aand countless track days with minimal wear. unfortunately, a few self destructed too. My guess is they got it right(er) this time.

Grant

newer engines (the DFI engine) and while there has been some grumbling about high pressure fuel pumps failing (though a tech told me the low pressure pump is critical and if it fails this can on the surface look like the high pressure pump has failed) and some concern about engine deposits, mainly on the back of the intake valves, the new engines appear to be -- at least at thus juncture -- appear to be pretty good engines.

Of course, it will take more miles on a lot more cars before we have a clearer picture of these engines and their reliability and quirks.

A problem with this newer engines is the fuel is not injected upstream of the intake valves so the valves do not get 'washed' with gas and thus kept clean. To compound the issue these engines use a combination of valve timing and reduced intake valve lift to control low speed emissions and this can result in a bit of back flow of exhaust gases into the intake side of the engine and far enough that the hot combustion chamger gases come into contact with the relatively cool intake valves some gaseous material will condense and form deposits on the valves.

Avoiding extremely low rpm operation -- to avoid triggering or turning on the goofy valve timing and reduced lift activity -- is one way to avoid operating the engine that is more likely to result in any desposits. Trouble is with PDK equippped cars the shift map of the transmission will tend to keep the engine at the lower end of its rpm band.

Some techs have told me that there may be a factory engine deposit flush procedure forthcoming, but this was first mentioned around 2 years ago and I've yet to learn of this flush procedure/equipment's existence so this may just be rumor that will never turn into fact.

Regardless, I would not be hesitant to buy a car with a new DFI engine. I'd just treat it like I have my other Porsches: 5K mile oil/filter services and run a good oil/ no overfilling of the oil; run a name brand of premium gasoline; avoid extremely low engine speed operation; and drive the car alot .

Sincerely,

MarcW.

is there a DFI issue with washing oil off the cylinder walls, thus requiring a particular type? (Sorry if this has been mentioned in the thread already.)

The list just gives MYs not specific engines or models, except I must note for the Cayenne (gas and diesel) which separated out and receives a different oil approval tag: A30 vs. A40 for the non-Cayenne models.

Also, I'm not sure this fuel washing is a real thing. I know some believe it is but based on what I'm not sure.

Pre-DFI engines can collect a bit of gasoline in the oil so it could be this gasoline build in DFI engine oil is normal though it might be exacrebated by most of the DFI engines being equipped with Tip or PDK with their very fuel economy efficient shift maps that keep rpms down and a side effect is the engines just don't get as hot with the end effect the oil isn't boiled away like it should be.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Section 5 on http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html is an interesting read on the new engines.

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mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Section 5 on http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html is an interesting read on the new engines.

Thanks, Mike... A great read, and as usual, you are the definitive source for all literary things Boxster, et al.

Regards, Maurice.

The info just covers/rehashes the known problems of the older style M96 egnines, albeit the latest examples of this engine model line.

I think it a bit premature to bin the new DFI engines or to start saving for some aftermarket engine builder DFI upgrade kit just yet.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

The only thing that comes close to an engine/tranny problem (again, this is the PDK) that I've had in almost two years is that once in a great while I'll start up the car and the tranny basically stays in neutral even after I shift it to drive, with the rather ominous diagnostic message "Emergency Transmission Run" appearing on the console.

The only way to ameliorate the problem has been to turn off the car and start 'er up again. Usually once is enough, although there's a time I think it took two restarts.

Researching this a bit on the web, I found some that theorized it had to do with the electrical system's voltage being a bit low; certainly, I've never had it happen after having been connected to a battery maintainer. But I've also left my V1 on inadvertently for days without a maintainer and had it start up fine after. So who knows.

I keep asking my Porsche service manager if he's heard anything about this issue (except from me), and he continues to profess ignorance. Of course, that wouldn't be the only issue he's heard about only from me--I still incessantly biatch about the way the radio arbitrarily un-mutes itself at random times (actually not quite random, as they correspond to losing and re-acquiring the Sirius XM signal, but from the driver's perspective, it's random and therefore a bit dangerous IMO)

Never observed Leor's tranny problem.
The car has been running fine for two years and 42000 km's.
The only thing that bothers me a bit is the carbon deposit (soot?) which is visible in the exhaust tips. But that deposit seems to be normal for all DFI engines but maybe not harmless.

"But that deposit seems to be normal for all DFI engines but maybe not harmless." I have this on my 08. I don't think it is a function of dfi non-dfi. But, if anyone can tell me that there SHOULDN'T have a small amount of carbon/soot build up on my tailpipe (08, 11K miles), I'd like to know. Especially if it is an indication that my engine is not running efficiently or correctly.

I think the carbon buildup on the tailpipe has something to do with driving style. Lots of short trips, cold starts, mostly low RPM's causes less efficient burning of fuel and carbon build up.

With the engine properly warmed up (for me that's the coolant temp at 80 C or 180 F + at least 10 more minutes of driving to make sure the oil is properly warmed up too), it's good to give it an "Italian tuneup" - get those revs up. In general, you shouldn't lug these engines. They're not built for that.

Generally, my trips are at least 10 miles, but usually much longer than that.

Here's my tailpipe after about 700 miles en route to BRBS.

My '09S had about 800 miles on it put on by the sales manager (which got me a bit off the price). I noticed the soot in the showroom and I asked them to make sure it got cleaned before I took delivery, not realizing how easily it always just wipes off. Of course, they didn't clean it

Anyway, I get it on my pipes after just a few days of driving. When I asked Chris Martikke, the service manager at IRA Porsche about it, he said that it's actually a consequence of how cool the exhaust is that comes out of the DFI engine...apparently, the efficiency of the engine contributes to what little soot there being more attracted to sticking to the tailpipe. I don't exactly understand it, but I can live with wiping the pipe off once in a while in return for the car being that much nicer to the environment. After all, it's that much less soot in the air, right?

but I rather would see it leave my car as CO2 gas

My trips are never shorter than 30 minutes, I always drive in manual mode and keep the revs above 2000 rpm. From time to time I give it Pedro's "Italian tune-up", but nevertheless I always get some soot on the tailpipe, which, admittedly, wipes off easily.

comes though, at least not completely, and as anyone who's seen a gas fire or any flammable liquid fire can confirm, soot (black smoke) is the result of incomplete combustion.

As long as the engine exhibits no untoward behavior,the check engine light is not on, a coating of soot at the exhaust tips is nothing to worry about.

When this subject comes up I like to point out the place to be is behind the wheel looking out of the windshield, not squatting down behind the car admiring the very thin layer of soot that might be present.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

but I was wondering why the DFI engine is so much different from the conventionally injected engine in this respect.

Regards,
Joris

I would expect that dfi, which I have read is supposed to be a significant improvement in fuel/air/etc input to the cylinders and therefore a much more efficent engine, would have less carbon coming out the back end.

Again, my service manager stated that it was due to the lower exhaust temperature from the DFI engine that the soot was prone to stick to the pipe. I don't personally understand the physics, but that's what he said...

the DFI's liquid-to-atomized spray is cooler than an "inducted" mixture, and stays cooler longer in the combustion chamber until ignition. So although the actual combustion temperature is still high/equal, the cylinder walls, piston crowns, valves stay cooler. If one imagines the soot as a form of condensate, perhaps it forms bigger, heavier particles with DFI, and therefore it's more prone to remain in the exhaust system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 08:46AM by Laz. (view changes)

One of the advantages of DFI is that the atomized fuel cools the intake mixture, resulting in a) a denser charge and b) less susceptibility to spontaneous ignition. This allows higher compression and greater timing advance - thus more power and economy.

I dont really see how the exhaust would be cooler, except that maybe, just maybe, "perfect" mixture eliminates periodic lean conditions that cause overly-hot combustion and exhaust temps - the kind that burn valves.

Since these are, after all, heat engines, i would expect that the heat released would be very similar - or if combustion is better - maybe even more!

Grant

directly in the combustion chamber. This works to reduce the occurance of detonation.

Thus the DME can trigger the spark even earlier which means the fuel/air mixture is burned in the combustion chamber and their expansion is used to generate more mechanical energy. Also, the combustion chamber gases cool as the piston moves lower down in the cylinder during the power stroke which works to lower exhaust gas temp at the exhaust port. Since the burning is more complete there is less unburned fuel to process (burn) in the converter thus the processing of less exhaust byproducts means the converters contribute less heat to the exhaust gases.

In pre-DFI engines often the ignition timing would have to be retarded to avoid detonation. As a result the fuel burning begins later and this burning continues even after the exhaust valve is opened and the result is the exhaust gas temperature is higher at the exhaust port. Since the burning process is less efficient more unburned fuel makes it ito the converters where it is processed (burned) and this contributes more heat to the exhaust gases.

Sincerely,

MarcW.