Re: Is it possibly that new-fangled early warning system that is now built into morecent examples? *NM*

Need advice from the community at large here- a big red 'warning, catastrophic engine failure bottom of engine' light came on in my '03 S (59k) the other day. Immediate thoughts of an imploding IMS came to mind, but light was not accompanied by any other symptoms, i.e, no noise, smoke or vibration. Car is immaculately maintained, oil changed every 6,000-7,500 miles, not raced, garaged winters. I shut off the car, had towed to dealer. Dealer drained oil, cut open and inspected oil filter. Clean as a whistle- no debris at all in the oil. Car has had regular CEL due to aftermarket 200 cell sport cats and bypass pipes (secondary O2 sensors), but this doesn't affect driveability and I just reset the light from time to time. Just want to confirm that the secondary O2 sensors couldn't be related somehow and if this is not relevant, any other ideas? I don't want to tear into the engine without additional cause. Dealer has no other suggestions, other than an exploratory tear down. Thanks.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Quote
ICEBOX
Need advice from the community at large here- a big red 'warning, catastrophic engine failure bottom of engine' light came on in my '03 S (59k) the other day. Immediate thoughts of an imploding IMS came to mind, but light was not accompanied by any other symptoms, i.e, no noise, smoke or vibration. Car is immaculately maintained, oil changed every 6,000-7,500 miles, not raced, garaged winters. I shut off the car, had towed to dealer. Dealer drained oil, cut open and inspected oil filter. Clean as a whistle- no debris at all in the oil. Car has had regular CEL due to aftermarket 200 cell sport cats and bypass pipes (secondary O2 sensors), but this doesn't affect driveability and I just reset the light from time to time. Just want to confirm that the secondary O2 sensors couldn't be related somehow and if this is not relevant, any other ideas? I don't want to tear into the engine without additional cause. Dealer has no other suggestions, other than an exploratory tear down. Thanks.

Unless there's some new warning light that appeared on the 03 S (and AFAIK does not exist in my 03 Turbo) there's just the check engine light.

Couple of things: A periodic CEL with aftermarket converters is not unknown. Generally aftermarket converters while they may be more 'free flowing' are not as good at processing exhaust gases and the DME recognizes this from the behavior of the #2 O2 sensors and turns on the CEL and logs one or more error codes that might initially point to the sensors when it is the converters that are at the root cause of the behavior the DME recognized.

As an aside while 'driveabilty' may not be affected to a noticable degree the DME may not supply the engine the best mixture due to the voltage signals coming from the #2 sensors in trying to bring their voltage signals into the acceptable range.

I do not like modified modern cars because the mods oftentimes result in check engine light events (or other odd behavior) that arises I'm sorry to say from just a poorly designed/integrated mod. These engines from the outer most intake vent to the tip of the exhaust pipe are very sophisticated devices that rely upon a multitude of subsystems to operate correctly. The engine controllers are very sophisticated at id'ing under perforning sensors or other systems (like exhausts) and flagging a problem with a check engine light and one or more error codes (and to Porsche diagnostic computers even more info/details).

So, I can't offer much beyond buy an OBD2 code reader/data viewer and use it to read the codes when the check engine light appears and if you want post the codes here for some analysis by participants here that might help id the root cause of the check engine light, though with the mod'd exhaust the solution may to be switch back to the stock exhaust.

Absent any signs of engine distress, with a clean oil filter, and the car's history I believe you have nothing to worry about. Keep treating the car like you have been treating and continue to drive the car.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

... doesn't have a big red 'warning, catastrophic engine failure bottom of engine' light.

It has various warning lights but other than a flashing CEL none indicate catastrophe.

So, which one was it? Let us know and we'll tell you what it means.



Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I'm not hallucinating - the entire area as indicated in #7 on the driver console diagram turned red with this warning in block letters. I was able to erase the warning by toggling back on the stalk that suppresses other warning messages such as low fuel, check engine, etc. .The dealer didn't question what I told them, When I pick up the car, I'll ask them to confirm if it is a warning indicator they have seen before.

My mistake in description- not a warning light, but a warning message. See my earleir response.

... that displays the silhouette of an engine and the text: FAILURE INDICATOR in the On Board Computer's display.
What it means is that the coolant temperature gauge, tachometer or cruise control, etc., could be faulty.
That message has to be read and reset by a PIWIS computer.
It's probably an electrical issue if that wasd the warning you got.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

No - the warning specifically read "catastrophic engine failure, lower engine" or some similar last two words. I distintcly remember seeing "catastrophic engine failure" in the warning as it really caught my attention as I would expect it would for anyone. Thanks for checking on this,

That the dealer said it could only suggest an exploratory engine teardown suggests this warning does not necessarily mean what it says...

If the dealer says it doesn't know have it spend a dime and contact its factory rep for information.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Good suggestion. I'm a good customer of theirs and and some addtional legwork on their part to check with their local dealer rep is certainly something they'd be willing to do. thanks.

news to me. I even wonder if these cars are upgradeable so that the OBD2 computer can predict dangerous situations. One wild example - L-R cam timing differential exceeds "X" there may be a wobbling IMS bearing, so warn the customer. Or somesuch. Not too many things that can be measured and predicted B4 severe damage occurs.

Anyway, this is news to me.

Grant

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

... really, soon.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 03:25PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

There is no such warning light. Check engine, yes. That typically means "your gas cap is loose".
OK, now i'm joking, but only a little.

Grant

had ever heard of or seen any such message. There are warning lights: CEL; coolant; oil; battery; and for various other systems (PSM for one I guess) but that the car's dash can display a text message indication engine failure is news to the 3 techs and 2 service managers I spoke with.

Whatever the dealer can provide you in the way of any additional info on this error message and its triggers I'd certainly be very grateful if you would share it with us here.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

[www.renntech.org]

Down load the manual then turn to pages 102 through 107 to see all of the possible displayed messages. The only message I see that mentions the words "engine" and "failure" at the same time on the same screen is the engine compartment blower failure message, i.e. "Failure of Engine-Compartment Blower".

The last sentence in the OBC area of the Owner's Manual states: "You can recall erased warning messages in the 'CHECK' menu". So, perhaps you can recall the warning message and post it here for further help in the diagnosis of your car's problem.

Bill

Tried that - no messages present. Probably due to the dealer clearing my CEL codes for the secondary o2 sensors. New clue though; the 02 sensor codes I have (P2098, etc.) were masking a P1157 (engine temp sensor/short to ground). It appears this fault may be preventing the engine cooling fan from operating as I checked and am not detecting any fan noise after operating the car for a while ( 20 mile drive) . Might this be causing the engine to overheat to the point where it triggered the engine failure message? My coolant temp is stable, but the Boxsters don't have oil temp guages; maybe that would have helped. Anyway, I've asked the dealer to check with their Porsche tech rep to see if they are aware of this warning message and whether the P1157 might be the cause.

Let me clarify my above response (since you guys are soooo literal)...... The P1157 wasn't hidden per se (i.e, not masked by the secondary 02 sensor codes), it is just that I assumed my CEL light (which is always on until I re-set it) was due to the secondary o2 sensors, when in fact there was a new fault present (P1157).

Here's how the engine compartment temperature system works....based on a 996. I just can't seem to find the time/temperature values for a 986. However, the system logic is the same.

Engine Compartment Fan

To reduce the temperature of the engine compartment, a fan actuated by the DME control unit is installed under the engine compartment cover. If the fan is active, fresh air is fed into the engine compartment.

Functioning

1- With engine running or ignition on:

If the engine temperature is higher than 102 degrees C combined with the engine compartment temperature being higher than 60 degrees C, the engine compartment fan is switched on for 30 seconds by the DME control unit ventilating the engine compartment. The fan will only operate for 100 seconds with the ignition on.

2- With the engine not running and ignition switched off:

If the engine compartment temperature is higher than 60 degrees C, the DME control remains active for 20 minutes. If the engine compartment temperature increases to about 85 degrees C, the fan will come on for 30 seconds. If the engine compartment temperature falls below 80 degrees C, the DME will turn off the system.

If, at the end of the original operation period (30 seconds), the engine compartment temperature is still higher than 85 degrees C, the engine compartment fan is started and runs for another 30 seconds. If the temperature still doesn't drop below 85 degrees C, a pause lasting 10 seconds occurs. Now the fan will start a third time. If, after 25 seconds the engine compartment still hasn't dropped below 80 degrees C a fault is registered and the cooling level warning light begins to flash and the "failure of engine compartment blower" legend on the ODC display illuminates.

The fan will continue to run until the programmed time has expired (20 min.) or until the next engine start after which the fan can run for 100 more seconds.

Now, with a P1157 code - engine compartment temperature sensor "short to ground" - it seems plausible to me that the system may be seeing a situation where it thinks that the engine compartment is too hot and eventually illuminates a flashing red light on the coolant temperature gauge and the "Failure of Engine-Compartment Blower".notice on the OBC display. Further, if a person was unduly worried, after reading and/or hearing about catastrophic engine failures, about the health of his or her own engine, perhaps the OBC message could be interpreted as: Engine Failure b-Lower.

In any event, I am going to my dealer later today to pick up some tires for my son's car and will pass this by the technicians for their evaluation of your situation. Also, make sure the technician(s) working on your car don't sell you a cure for a problem that doesn't exist, i.e., "Dealer has no other suggestions, other than an exploratory tear down." It also seems strange to me that any qualified Porsche technician wouldn't be able to positively confirm or deny the existance of the OBC message you are relating to the Board and be able to point out the resolution to the message in a Porsche maintenance publication.

Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2011 01:46PM by whall. (view changes)