A dumb question... why no grease points? |  |  |
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| A dumb question... why no grease points? Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Sunday, 11 August, 2013, at 11:18:52 am |
| Re: A dumb question... why no grease points? MarcW - Sunday, 11 August, 2013, at 12:02:40 pm |
Quote
Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S)
Why don't modern cars have grease nipples? Or do they? Is this good or bad? A conspiracy? Are Porsches different?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Because they don't need them. Whatever lubrication these fittings come with from the factory coupled with the dust boots or covers suffices to give these points long service life.
Look around. Many owners have lots of miles on their car and of course have never greased a steering joint or connection of any kind and we do not see any scary number (hardly any number at all) of cars suffering from degradation of these joints or connections.
| Re: A dumb question... why no grease points? Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Sunday, 11 August, 2013, at 3:57:25 pm |
Quote
MarcW
Whatever lubrication these fittings come with from the factory coupled with the dust boots or covers suffices to give these points long service life.
Ok, one rhetorical question and one with a bit of humor (can you guess which is which?)
1 - "long service life" - wouldn't serviceable greasing yield a longer life? I guess this brings up the question of how long are our cars designed to last.... and
2 - Apparently sealed bearings can last .... um..... anywhere from 3K miles to ......????
Peace
Bruce in Philly
| I'm at the office testing software...my humor and rhetorical question filters are off.... MarcW - Sunday, 11 August, 2013, at 5:34:46 pm |
Quote
Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S)
Quote
MarcW
Whatever lubrication these fittings come with from the factory coupled with the dust boots or covers suffices to give these points long service life.
Ok, one rhetorical question and one with a bit of humor (can you guess which is which?)
1 - "long service life" - wouldn't serviceable greasing yield a longer life? I guess this brings up the question of how long are our cars designed to last.... and
2 - Apparently sealed bearings can last .... um..... anywhere from 3K miles to ......????
Peace
Bruce in Philly
For question (1) there does not appear based on what I gather any real short service life issues with these no grease fittings components. As I touched upon in my first post whatever is there seems to work. The dust cover though must remain intact.
I can't really speak to how long the cars are designed to last. They obviously have a potential for a long and relatively trouble free (or at least affordable) service life. BTW, in tough economic times the service life of vehicles goes up as people hang on to their vehicles longer. The average age of used cars now is up quite a bit from its norm of IIRC 9 years. I do not know what it is up to though. I read where car makers are looking at this as pent up demand for new cars. They are to some extent waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Sealed bearings are like any other piece of hardware. They can last for no time to a very long time. Early failures are covered by warranty though of course many Porsche owners let the new car's warranty expire on time rather than miles and it is miles that bring out the weak parts, the issues.
A few parts then can fail after warranty but before the car can be considered at the end of its life.
Most parts though just last with no real drama though obviously the climate, type of usage, road conditions, and maybe some other things all play a role in how long these parts last. In some cases they can last a long long time.
Laz - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 9:37:21 am |
| Re: Maybe that was the theory behind the sealed IMS bearing. MarcW - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 11:18:54 am |
Laz - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 12:42:02 pm |
| Well, one has to assume at the time the decision was made it was the best choice.... MarcW - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 1:59:51 pm |
Laz - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 5:44:55 pm |
| Let me give you my version ... (very long) Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 11:28:03 am |
... of the (sealed) bearing issue.
There's a lot of information and mis-informatin out there. Please allow me to give you the full story as I see it.
When the first IMS failures started really appearing back in 2001, immediately the blame was put on the bearing itself.
Porsche had just reduced the size of the bearing from a double-row to a single-row in model year 2000. They beefed it up in 2006 giving more weight to the theory that the bearing was the culprit and the weak point of the motor. It wasn't and it isn't. Let me step back and explain.
Porsche going with a (sealed) roller bearing at the other end of the IMS was a sound decision.
The other end of the IMS was at the base of the scavenge pump so oil was readily available and a simple bearing was used.
But on the transmission side of the engine oiling would prove more difficult and expensive, so they decided to use a lifetime-lubricated steel-ball bearing.
This bearing has a long-lasting grease packed into the bearing and it is sealed on both sides to keep the grease in place.
Most racing engines in motorcycles, karts and other high-output, high-revving power plants use ball bearings because they are vey sturdy and efficient.
The IMS is a hollow "sealed" tube. Well, kind of.
What happens is that a small amount of oil seeps into the hollow IMS. About 2 oz or less.
This oil gets trapped inside the IMS tube and cooks, and cooks, and cooks inside with the engine's heat and with no way of refreshing and replenishing it starts to become rancid and acid.
This acid oil now starts to seep into the bearing by compromising/deteriorating the bearing's inside seal.
Once inside the bearing this rancid/acid oil dissolves the lifetime grease and then the bearing starts to "run dry".
Once this happens, it's the kiss of death unless you happen to catch it right away.
The reason why garage-queens fail at very low miles is that since the car sits for extended periods, this allows for the acid oil to penetrate the bearing quicker because it works on the bottom segment of the seal which is in constant contact with the oil inside the IMS.
The reason why tracked cars don't fail is that since the engine is constantly operated at higher RPMs there's a bit more oil that seeps in so it takes longer to deteriorate and because there is more oil, even when the seal deteriorated, just because there's more oil, some of it will lubricate the bearing.
Porsche had kept very tight-lipped about the number of failures.
We have been saying for several years that we estimated the failure rates around 10% and now with the information obtained from the Porsche Class Action Settlement that number was dead-on.
We believe that up to 10% of the M96/M97-shopd cars will have a failure by 100,000 miles and 20% will have failures by 150,000 miles.
The highest failure rates are the 2000-2005 cars which have the single-row replaceable bearing, but any M96/M97 engine can have an IMS bearing failure soon after the bearing's seal is compromised.
The good news is tha 90% of the cars will be fine so it's up to each individual owner to decide his/her failure threshold.
But the story doesn't end there...
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
There's a lot of information and mis-informatin out there. Please allow me to give you the full story as I see it.
When the first IMS failures started really appearing back in 2001, immediately the blame was put on the bearing itself.
Porsche had just reduced the size of the bearing from a double-row to a single-row in model year 2000. They beefed it up in 2006 giving more weight to the theory that the bearing was the culprit and the weak point of the motor. It wasn't and it isn't. Let me step back and explain.
Porsche going with a (sealed) roller bearing at the other end of the IMS was a sound decision.
The other end of the IMS was at the base of the scavenge pump so oil was readily available and a simple bearing was used.
But on the transmission side of the engine oiling would prove more difficult and expensive, so they decided to use a lifetime-lubricated steel-ball bearing.
This bearing has a long-lasting grease packed into the bearing and it is sealed on both sides to keep the grease in place.
Most racing engines in motorcycles, karts and other high-output, high-revving power plants use ball bearings because they are vey sturdy and efficient.
The IMS is a hollow "sealed" tube. Well, kind of.
What happens is that a small amount of oil seeps into the hollow IMS. About 2 oz or less.
This oil gets trapped inside the IMS tube and cooks, and cooks, and cooks inside with the engine's heat and with no way of refreshing and replenishing it starts to become rancid and acid.
This acid oil now starts to seep into the bearing by compromising/deteriorating the bearing's inside seal.
Once inside the bearing this rancid/acid oil dissolves the lifetime grease and then the bearing starts to "run dry".
Once this happens, it's the kiss of death unless you happen to catch it right away.
The reason why garage-queens fail at very low miles is that since the car sits for extended periods, this allows for the acid oil to penetrate the bearing quicker because it works on the bottom segment of the seal which is in constant contact with the oil inside the IMS.
The reason why tracked cars don't fail is that since the engine is constantly operated at higher RPMs there's a bit more oil that seeps in so it takes longer to deteriorate and because there is more oil, even when the seal deteriorated, just because there's more oil, some of it will lubricate the bearing.
Porsche had kept very tight-lipped about the number of failures.
We have been saying for several years that we estimated the failure rates around 10% and now with the information obtained from the Porsche Class Action Settlement that number was dead-on.
We believe that up to 10% of the M96/M97-shopd cars will have a failure by 100,000 miles and 20% will have failures by 150,000 miles.
The highest failure rates are the 2000-2005 cars which have the single-row replaceable bearing, but any M96/M97 engine can have an IMS bearing failure soon after the bearing's seal is compromised.
The good news is tha 90% of the cars will be fine so it's up to each individual owner to decide his/her failure threshold.
But the story doesn't end there...
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Here's the rest of the story ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 11:41:21 am |
... Because of the ignorance and misinformation on the internet and elsewhere, paranoia set in.
People now expected their engines to blow up at any minute.
Prices for these wonderful vehicles has come crashing down.
That's great news for those brave enough souls to risk buying one, but horrible for owners who expected that because it was a Porsche, trade-in value would hold up as historically nit had.
Something needed to be done from the standpoint of truly solving the issue so that confidence and values are restored.
Once the issue was completely understood, the solution was simple (in concept).
Prototypes were manufactured and tested, and tested, and modified, and tested and modified, and tested, until it was all perfect and a patent was applied for and issued.
Now, the DOF is the real and final solution to the IMS failures in M96/M97 engines.
DOF (Direct Oil Feed) is a new bearing support flange with an integrated oil injector which supplies a stream of filtered, cooled engine oil right onto the bearing's balls.
Obviously the outside seal on the bearing is removed, exposing its innards.
The DOF is a complete kit intended to be installed by a pro.
It contains the new, patented flange, a 3000 psi flexible oil line, all the fittings, spacer, new Porsche micro-encapsulated bolts, and even thread lock.
When the DOF is installed we recommend also replacing the IMS bearing so that you can start with a fresh one without any wear.
For this purpose we have sourced the OEM single and double-row steel ball bearings as well as the single and double-row ceramic ball bearings at very reduced prices.
Cars from 1997 - 2005.5 can have their IMS bearing easily replaced, just adding about an extra hour of labor to the DOF install.
Cars from 2005.5 through 2008 cannot have the IMS bearing easily replaced thus we recommend installing the DOF as soon as practical to stop any wear that may have already happened and to prolong the life of the bearing and the engine.
Im very proud and happy to be involved in this project from realization of the problem to conceptualization of a solution to prototyping and testing to development, fabrication, patenting, and now finally marketing!
If you want additional information, please visit my website: www.PedrosGarage.com (in the Products page).
Happy Porscheinhg,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
People now expected their engines to blow up at any minute.
Prices for these wonderful vehicles has come crashing down.
That's great news for those brave enough souls to risk buying one, but horrible for owners who expected that because it was a Porsche, trade-in value would hold up as historically nit had.
Something needed to be done from the standpoint of truly solving the issue so that confidence and values are restored.
Once the issue was completely understood, the solution was simple (in concept).
Prototypes were manufactured and tested, and tested, and modified, and tested and modified, and tested, until it was all perfect and a patent was applied for and issued.
Now, the DOF is the real and final solution to the IMS failures in M96/M97 engines.
DOF (Direct Oil Feed) is a new bearing support flange with an integrated oil injector which supplies a stream of filtered, cooled engine oil right onto the bearing's balls.
Obviously the outside seal on the bearing is removed, exposing its innards.
The DOF is a complete kit intended to be installed by a pro.
It contains the new, patented flange, a 3000 psi flexible oil line, all the fittings, spacer, new Porsche micro-encapsulated bolts, and even thread lock.
When the DOF is installed we recommend also replacing the IMS bearing so that you can start with a fresh one without any wear.
For this purpose we have sourced the OEM single and double-row steel ball bearings as well as the single and double-row ceramic ball bearings at very reduced prices.
Cars from 1997 - 2005.5 can have their IMS bearing easily replaced, just adding about an extra hour of labor to the DOF install.
Cars from 2005.5 through 2008 cannot have the IMS bearing easily replaced thus we recommend installing the DOF as soon as practical to stop any wear that may have already happened and to prolong the life of the bearing and the engine.
Im very proud and happy to be involved in this project from realization of the problem to conceptualization of a solution to prototyping and testing to development, fabrication, patenting, and now finally marketing!
If you want additional information, please visit my website: www.PedrosGarage.com (in the Products page).
Happy Porscheinhg,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Laz - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 12:45:47 pm |
| Stories sometimes leave questions mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 2:13:49 pm |
"Prototypes were manufactured and tested, and tested, and modified, and tested and modified, and tested, until it was all perfect and a patent was applied for and issued.
Now, the DOF is the real and final solution to the IMS failures in M96/M97 engines."
Just how many cars with what type of bearings were driven what length of miles and time and the bearings inspected how by who using what equipment to enable the assertion that the DOF is the "Real and Final Solution" and "perfect"? I ask this because a small sample size sometimes gives misleading results. We know, for example, how long LN's ceramic bearings have been around and in how many cars so we have an idea of their sample size and results. We also know that at least once early on LN had to change their design based on real world feedback. So how do we know an alternative is right the first time it is exposed to non-developers?
"It contains the new, patented flange, a 3000 psi flexible oil line, all the fittings, spacer, new Porsche micro-encapsulated bolts, and even thread lock."
Thanks for the kit contents.
"When the DOF is installed we recommend also replacing the IMS bearing so that you can start with a fresh one without any wear."
How many were tested with and without replacing the bearings?
Some of the DOF early postings spoke of reusing the existing bearings after inspection and removal of the seal. How many were tested reusing the existing bearings after removing them initially for inspection and modification?
"For this purpose we have sourced the OEM single and double-row steel ball bearings as well as the single and double-row ceramic ball bearings at very reduced prices."
We (some sadly) know the characteristics of the OEM IMS parts but how, for example, do the ceramic bearings/races you supply compare to LN's? Are they the same?
Now, the DOF is the real and final solution to the IMS failures in M96/M97 engines."
Just how many cars with what type of bearings were driven what length of miles and time and the bearings inspected how by who using what equipment to enable the assertion that the DOF is the "Real and Final Solution" and "perfect"? I ask this because a small sample size sometimes gives misleading results. We know, for example, how long LN's ceramic bearings have been around and in how many cars so we have an idea of their sample size and results. We also know that at least once early on LN had to change their design based on real world feedback. So how do we know an alternative is right the first time it is exposed to non-developers?
"It contains the new, patented flange, a 3000 psi flexible oil line, all the fittings, spacer, new Porsche micro-encapsulated bolts, and even thread lock."
Thanks for the kit contents.
"When the DOF is installed we recommend also replacing the IMS bearing so that you can start with a fresh one without any wear."
How many were tested with and without replacing the bearings?
Some of the DOF early postings spoke of reusing the existing bearings after inspection and removal of the seal. How many were tested reusing the existing bearings after removing them initially for inspection and modification?
"For this purpose we have sourced the OEM single and double-row steel ball bearings as well as the single and double-row ceramic ball bearings at very reduced prices."
We (some sadly) know the characteristics of the OEM IMS parts but how, for example, do the ceramic bearings/races you supply compare to LN's? Are they the same?
| Look Mike, I'm really getting tired ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 5:07:53 pm |
... of your constant public attacks against the DOF product and your unilateral defense for our competitors.
If you're doing it altruistically I applaud you, but from where I'm sitting it doesn't feel that way.
You have come after us on other forums such as Pelican ( [forums.pelicanparts.com] ) with important but very direct questions and doubts for us and at the same time you put forth glowing comments for the competition. We answered your questions, patiently and extensively, but you keep on attacking.
On other forums I'll let it pass, but this is my forum and I won't.
We don't have to give you or anyone else the number of engines that were broken, nor the number of prototypes that were tested, nor the number of failures or successes that we had during the development of the DOF. No manufacturer does that.
Suffice it to say that the products we offer and sell ride on our reputation.
If the DOFwere to be a flop, there would go my name and reputation.
Do you think I would risk that with a product that I am not convinced of?
People know that whenever we recommend a product we are convinced that that product makes a worthwhile investment and that's why we recommend it.
Because we are sincere and have always spoken directly, people have learned to trust us.
We have said and say and will keep saying that the IMS bearing was not, is not and will not be the problem in the M96./M97 engine.
Let me say it again and say it loud: THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN, IS AND WILL BE THE LACK OF PROPER LUBRICATION.
If you don't agree with that, it's your prerogative.
We have said that it's not necessary to replace the bearing if it is good, but because there's no 100% sure-fire test of the bearing while in the car, we recommend installing a new one whenever possible to start with a "clean slate".
For that reason we have sourced and we offer both the OEM steel and aftermarket ceramic IMS bearings in single and double row, but we have made the effort to make them very affordable.
Yes, the steel is the same as the OEM, yes the ceramic bearing is the same as the one you refer to.
Unfortunately, the 2005.5 and newer cars can't do that (replace the IMS bearing) affordably, so to them we say, install the DOF ASAP so that they don't incur in undue wear of their car's IMS bearing.
Happy DOF'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2013 05:45PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
If you're doing it altruistically I applaud you, but from where I'm sitting it doesn't feel that way.
You have come after us on other forums such as Pelican ( [forums.pelicanparts.com] ) with important but very direct questions and doubts for us and at the same time you put forth glowing comments for the competition. We answered your questions, patiently and extensively, but you keep on attacking.
On other forums I'll let it pass, but this is my forum and I won't.
We don't have to give you or anyone else the number of engines that were broken, nor the number of prototypes that were tested, nor the number of failures or successes that we had during the development of the DOF. No manufacturer does that.
Suffice it to say that the products we offer and sell ride on our reputation.
If the DOFwere to be a flop, there would go my name and reputation.
Do you think I would risk that with a product that I am not convinced of?
People know that whenever we recommend a product we are convinced that that product makes a worthwhile investment and that's why we recommend it.
Because we are sincere and have always spoken directly, people have learned to trust us.
We have said and say and will keep saying that the IMS bearing was not, is not and will not be the problem in the M96./M97 engine.
Let me say it again and say it loud: THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN, IS AND WILL BE THE LACK OF PROPER LUBRICATION.
If you don't agree with that, it's your prerogative.
We have said that it's not necessary to replace the bearing if it is good, but because there's no 100% sure-fire test of the bearing while in the car, we recommend installing a new one whenever possible to start with a "clean slate".
For that reason we have sourced and we offer both the OEM steel and aftermarket ceramic IMS bearings in single and double row, but we have made the effort to make them very affordable.
Yes, the steel is the same as the OEM, yes the ceramic bearing is the same as the one you refer to.
Unfortunately, the 2005.5 and newer cars can't do that (replace the IMS bearing) affordably, so to them we say, install the DOF ASAP so that they don't incur in undue wear of their car's IMS bearing.
Happy DOF'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2013 05:45PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| Serious Question? gregsterInMO - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 5:54:47 pm |
| Re: Serious Question? Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 6:21:39 pm |
We charge $1,800 including the DOF Kit.
Since the Kit costs $799 the labor expense is around $1,000 (for a RWD, manual transmission).
Tiptronics and 4WD cars are more labor-intensive.
The labor involves:
Removing the transmission, clutch/torque converter and flywheel.
Locking the engine in TDC
Locking the cams
Locking the crankshaft
Cutting a notch for the oil line
Removing the OEM flange
Removing the existing IMS bearing ('97 - '05.5)
Installing new IMS bearing (steel or ceramic bearing - '97 - '05.5)
Installing new DOF flange (DOF1, DOF2 or DOF3 depending on car)
Connect oil line to DOF flange
Reinstall flywheel
Reinstall clutch/torque converter
Reinstall transmission
Connect the free end of the oil line to the top engine port.
Enjoy trouble-free permagrin.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Since the Kit costs $799 the labor expense is around $1,000 (for a RWD, manual transmission).
Tiptronics and 4WD cars are more labor-intensive.
The labor involves:
Removing the transmission, clutch/torque converter and flywheel.
Locking the engine in TDC
Locking the cams
Locking the crankshaft
Cutting a notch for the oil line
Removing the OEM flange
Removing the existing IMS bearing ('97 - '05.5)
Installing new IMS bearing (steel or ceramic bearing - '97 - '05.5)
Installing new DOF flange (DOF1, DOF2 or DOF3 depending on car)
Connect oil line to DOF flange
Reinstall flywheel
Reinstall clutch/torque converter
Reinstall transmission
Connect the free end of the oil line to the top engine port.
Enjoy trouble-free permagrin.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Labour time for DOF Kit installation Roger987 - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 7:13:32 pm |
Pedro, because your hourly rate is likely less than the Porsche dealer, can you give us an idea of the time required to do the installation (one which includes bearing replacement and one without), on a manual transmission Boxster. This will give those of us who are thousands of miles away from you a reference point for discussions with the dealer.
Can you also give us an idea of the additional time required to install a replacement clutch kit while the mechanic is already doing the DOF kit installation.
Thanks.
Can you also give us an idea of the additional time required to install a replacement clutch kit while the mechanic is already doing the DOF kit installation.
Thanks.
| to do the DOF, you need to remove the Transmission and flywheel, soo..... grant - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 7:39:57 pm |
aside from actually installing the clutch parts on the transmission that is literally sitting in front of you, there isn't much labor to do the clutch.
I didn't do it myself, but i'd estimate.... and hour? 90 minutes with all the checking and stuff?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
I didn't do it myself, but i'd estimate.... and hour? 90 minutes with all the checking and stuff?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: to do the DOF, you need to remove the Transmission and flywheel, soo..... Roger987 - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 8:29:20 pm |
| Re: Labour time for DOF Kit installation Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 10:38:58 pm |
Quote
Roger987
Pedro, because your hourly rate is likely less than the Porsche dealer, can you give us an idea of the time required to do the installation (one which includes bearing replacement and one without), on a manual transmission Boxster. This will give those of us who are thousands of miles away from you a reference point for discussions with the dealer.
Can you also give us an idea of the additional time required to install a replacement clutch kit while the mechanic is already doing the DOF kit installation.
Thanks.
It should take a shop about 10 hours to do all I described above.
Once a shop has done several its probably more like 8 actual hours.
To replace the bearing after everything has been removed is another hour at the most.
Because you have to remove the clutch to get to the IMS bearing installing a new one doesn't add any more time than reinstalling the old one.
Happy Porescheing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2013 10:46PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| Thanks, Pedro *NM* Roger987 - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 11:20:18 pm |
| Sitting between two people who have done so much for all of us...is uncomfortable grant - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 6:39:14 pm |
But let's give each a bit of leeway.
Mike asks good questions - ones that anyone really looking into forecast reliability needs to ask.
Now, while i freely acknowledge that none of us likely has enough data to perform statistically valid predictions, many tests dont try to do so. Rather, they allow an engineer to either stress something beyond normal to accelerate wear/testing, or validate if a well associated condition exists. In my (ex) business for example i could get 95% of reliability tested by measuring peak surge, draw and heat on components. From that, and without a spec of statistical inference, i could tell if something would likely last. More accurately i could tell if it would fail, and p(1-failure) was p(success).
I assume the team did some such tests. Maybe looking for temperature rise under multiple conditions.
The other thing that makes me feel very comfortable that the new oiling solution will work is pretty simple: every single IMS bearing failure has shown some indication of lubrication failure - at the very least the seals intended to keep the grease in place failed. Often more.
Finally we have the conundrum that Pedro pointed out, but so have lots of others, including me: harder driven cars fail less than garage queens. That's kinda odd, but two explanations came to the fore: splash lubrication and acid/moisture. I happen to subscribe to both. And regardless, the oiling solution solves both - so i don't have to choose one or even be right. That's a relief :-)
Its not hard to grasp the fundamental truth that a well lubricated bearing of any kind lasts longer, other variables held constant, than one that has a ;lubrication issue (lack of, acidified oil, wrong viscosity, other).
I happen to have two LN retrofits due to timing of my decisions (2010, last winter). I fully expect that given my hard and regular use, and regular oil changes, and the fact that i throw a box of Arm and Hammer in regularly (kidding), means that the IMS-B in my motors is likely one of the stringer links. And as the old joke goes, it need not outrun the bear - only you.
So let's get what facts on the table that we can, but on the other hand, avoiding a highly likely solution because we have not crossed our pedantic t's is even more foolish.
As i recall, Ed the Bearing engineer pretty much agreed on these points, although he stuck to the facts and made few judgement calls.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Mike asks good questions - ones that anyone really looking into forecast reliability needs to ask.
Now, while i freely acknowledge that none of us likely has enough data to perform statistically valid predictions, many tests dont try to do so. Rather, they allow an engineer to either stress something beyond normal to accelerate wear/testing, or validate if a well associated condition exists. In my (ex) business for example i could get 95% of reliability tested by measuring peak surge, draw and heat on components. From that, and without a spec of statistical inference, i could tell if something would likely last. More accurately i could tell if it would fail, and p(1-failure) was p(success).
I assume the team did some such tests. Maybe looking for temperature rise under multiple conditions.
The other thing that makes me feel very comfortable that the new oiling solution will work is pretty simple: every single IMS bearing failure has shown some indication of lubrication failure - at the very least the seals intended to keep the grease in place failed. Often more.
Finally we have the conundrum that Pedro pointed out, but so have lots of others, including me: harder driven cars fail less than garage queens. That's kinda odd, but two explanations came to the fore: splash lubrication and acid/moisture. I happen to subscribe to both. And regardless, the oiling solution solves both - so i don't have to choose one or even be right. That's a relief :-)
Its not hard to grasp the fundamental truth that a well lubricated bearing of any kind lasts longer, other variables held constant, than one that has a ;lubrication issue (lack of, acidified oil, wrong viscosity, other).
I happen to have two LN retrofits due to timing of my decisions (2010, last winter). I fully expect that given my hard and regular use, and regular oil changes, and the fact that i throw a box of Arm and Hammer in regularly (kidding), means that the IMS-B in my motors is likely one of the stringer links. And as the old joke goes, it need not outrun the bear - only you.
So let's get what facts on the table that we can, but on the other hand, avoiding a highly likely solution because we have not crossed our pedantic t's is even more foolish.
As i recall, Ed the Bearing engineer pretty much agreed on these points, although he stuck to the facts and made few judgement calls.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: Look Mike, I'm really getting tired ... mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 9:39:16 am |
I've talked/emailed to/with Charles and Jake several times over the years and they gave me the same kind of information I was asking of you. That is my only connection to them; never met them in person, done anything with them or for them.
If you go back to the original announcements of the LN bearing, you'll find me having the same "how do we know" concerns on the public forums. Only they were answered (and updated when requested) and I posted failure numbers and reasons probably here and certainly on other forums.
I have the same concern today for "the solution" and its testing only I know the numbers there and at least the numbers for years, miles and cars is starting to be slightly significant. Heck, the DOF may exceed them for all we know...but we don't.
I asked you some of these same questions in private on Pelican. I had deliberately not raised them here out of respect. And had you not made postings here the way you did, I probably wouldn't have asked.
I like the oil-it theory, only question if we know enough to determine if it is better enough when compared to a bearing we have thousands of car/years experience with and which looks to be good enough to last most owner's car lifetimes (Not everyone goes 200k miles before moving to another car). Yes it sounds better than seeping oil but how much better than splashing/misting oil. And does it introduce any additional or now-unknown failure points? Do we know?
Having pushed products out the door to one of the world's biggest customers from 1967 onwards, I never had a product where we tested everything and it was perfect. But I always tried to understand just how close it was. Like I am now.
BTW, I saw the first posting today of someone with a 2005.5+ car saying he had an IMS failure at 140k+ miles. I asked him for details too.
"trust but verify" "specificity"
If you go back to the original announcements of the LN bearing, you'll find me having the same "how do we know" concerns on the public forums. Only they were answered (and updated when requested) and I posted failure numbers and reasons probably here and certainly on other forums.
I have the same concern today for "the solution" and its testing only I know the numbers there and at least the numbers for years, miles and cars is starting to be slightly significant. Heck, the DOF may exceed them for all we know...but we don't.
I asked you some of these same questions in private on Pelican. I had deliberately not raised them here out of respect. And had you not made postings here the way you did, I probably wouldn't have asked.
I like the oil-it theory, only question if we know enough to determine if it is better enough when compared to a bearing we have thousands of car/years experience with and which looks to be good enough to last most owner's car lifetimes (Not everyone goes 200k miles before moving to another car). Yes it sounds better than seeping oil but how much better than splashing/misting oil. And does it introduce any additional or now-unknown failure points? Do we know?
Having pushed products out the door to one of the world's biggest customers from 1967 onwards, I never had a product where we tested everything and it was perfect. But I always tried to understand just how close it was. Like I am now.
BTW, I saw the first posting today of someone with a 2005.5+ car saying he had an IMS failure at 140k+ miles. I asked him for details too.
"trust but verify" "specificity"
| You can trust this answer ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 10:52:59 am |
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I've talked/emailed to/with Charles and Jake several times over the years and they gave me the same kind of information I was asking of you. That is my only connection to them; never met them in person, done anything with them or for them.
At least you have met me, and we've had breakfast together.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
If you go back to the original announcements of the LN bearing, you'll find me having the same "how do we know" concerns on the public forums. Only they were answered (and updated when requested) and I posted failure numbers and reasons probably here and certainly on other forums.
I have the same concern today for "the solution" and its testing only I know the numbers there and at least the numbers for years, miles and cars is starting to be slightly significant. Heck, the DOF may exceed them for all we know...but we don't.
How can you verify a manufacturer's claims unless you have independent auditing?
I'm not implying that whatever numbers you got in the past from other manufactures weren't true, but I could tell you that we've tested the DOF for more than one trillion miles. I won't.
I'm staking my reputation on the DOF just like every manufacturer does when they introduce a new product, especially if they are claiming to solve a problem, as we are: The DOF solves the lubrication problem in the IMS bearing on M96/M97 engines.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I asked you some of these same questions in private on Pelican. I had deliberately not raised them here out of respect. And had you not made postings here the way you did, I probably wouldn't have asked.
You (privately) PM'd me once on the Pelican Board at 7:30 PM on 8/3/13, but you had posted the same inquisition on Pelican's public forum at 6:44 PM on 6/25/13, at 9:11 AM on 7/1/13, at 8:26 PM on 7/4/13, at 12:29 PM on 7/6/13, at 2:01 PM on 7/8/13, at 5:49 PM on 7/9/13, at 4:28 PM on 7/13/13, at 12:11 PM on 7/15/13, at 7:57 PM on 7/16/13, at 11:06 AM on 7/19/13, and that same morning at 8:24 AM on 8/3/13.
Out of respect? come on!
BTW, Stefan is not involved in the DOF. You can leave him out of this.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I like the oil-it theory, only question if we know enough to determine if it is better enough when compared to a bearing we have thousands of car/years experience with and which looks to be good enough to last most owner's car lifetimes (Not everyone goes 200k miles before moving to another car). Yes it sounds better than seeping oil but how much better than splashing/misting oil. And does it introduce any additional or now-unknown failure points? Do we know?
I'm very happy to hear that you like the oil-it-theory (DOF), but the DOF is not being compared with nor does it compete with the bearing that has thousands of car/years experience. It compliments it (just like it compliments the OEM steel bearing which has millions of car/years experience), because even the ceramic-ball bearings have been known to fail due to ... LACK OF LUBRICATION.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Having pushed products out the door to one of the world's biggest customers from 1967 onwards, I never had a product where we tested everything and it was perfect. But I always tried to understand just how close it was. Like I am now.
I have not claimed that the DOF is perfect. That's why we went through multiple prototypes. Each subsequent one better than the previous, trying to attain perfection. There is always chance for improvement and if/when we find it we will implement it.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
BTW, I saw the first posting today of someone with a 2005.5+ car saying he had an IMS failure at 140k+ miles. I asked him for details too.
I've seen not just a posting, but actual engines from 2005.5+ model years that have failed. The newest one was from a 2007 C7S.
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
"trust but verify" "specificity"
I have been very specific in my answers. Hopefully you will deem me trustworthy someday.
Here again is a small collection of the different DOF prototypes as they were being perfected throughout several years of testing and development:
[i83.photobucket.com]
And here are the latest DOF Kits, the ones that are on the market.
I hope you can see the search for perfection in the development:
[pedrosgarage.com]
[pedrosgarage.com]
[pedrosgarage.com]
Happy DOF'ing
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| re: 2005.5 failure - good to verify adn here's why grant - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 11:30:47 am |
I have no idea if it failed or not. But all should keep in mind that I bought Bruce's car after the motor failed and was diagnosed with an IMS failure. About a month later i posted a pictrue here of me holding the fairly good - condition bearing. The chain jumped bank B i believe.
So trust and verify also applies to IMS failure claims.
until the motor is out and the IMS outm, no one can be sure.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
So trust and verify also applies to IMS failure claims.
until the motor is out and the IMS outm, no one can be sure.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| The question would be... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 11:43:39 am |
... why did it jump timing?
Did a tensioner fail completely to the point where the chain became so loose that it jumped?
Did the chain break?
What other telltale signs were there about the failure?
The IMS bearing should have no movement whatsoever other than it's axial rotation.
Generally when the IMS bearing fails there's no doubt it failed when you look at it.
And yes, there are way too many engine failures checked under the IMS when it's obvious it wasn't a bearing failure.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Did a tensioner fail completely to the point where the chain became so loose that it jumped?
Did the chain break?
What other telltale signs were there about the failure?
The IMS bearing should have no movement whatsoever other than it's axial rotation.
Generally when the IMS bearing fails there's no doubt it failed when you look at it.
And yes, there are way too many engine failures checked under the IMS when it's obvious it wasn't a bearing failure.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| The failure in the blue car.... Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 1:12:55 pm |
Coupla data points:
1) When it failed, I had it towed to my indy who I trust..... 30 some years Porsche mechanic yadda yadda.... and he "looked at it" and said it was an IMS failure, no doubt about it. It wasn't. He didn't pull the bearing nor did he tear any part of the car down. I am not knocking him, but to Grant's point, I agree that many of these failures are misdiagnosed even by knowledgeable mechanics.
2) Symptoms of the failure... driving along steady at around 55 mph... no noise, but a feeling of immediate and total loss of power (a jerk), then immediately back on power fine for maybe a second or two, then total power loss again...at which I immediate threw in the clutch... engine died while coasting with dash lit up. I coasted off the road. I tried to restart and engine was frozen...no movement. No oil loss.... just dead. When my indy got a hold of it, he said it would turn, a bank definitely skipped time, and it was the IMS. All true? I dunno, but again, I respect this mechanic.
So Pedro, in your experience what are the other failure modes and do you have any suggestions for the paranoid (or cautious?) for additional remediation?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
1) When it failed, I had it towed to my indy who I trust..... 30 some years Porsche mechanic yadda yadda.... and he "looked at it" and said it was an IMS failure, no doubt about it. It wasn't. He didn't pull the bearing nor did he tear any part of the car down. I am not knocking him, but to Grant's point, I agree that many of these failures are misdiagnosed even by knowledgeable mechanics.
2) Symptoms of the failure... driving along steady at around 55 mph... no noise, but a feeling of immediate and total loss of power (a jerk), then immediately back on power fine for maybe a second or two, then total power loss again...at which I immediate threw in the clutch... engine died while coasting with dash lit up. I coasted off the road. I tried to restart and engine was frozen...no movement. No oil loss.... just dead. When my indy got a hold of it, he said it would turn, a bank definitely skipped time, and it was the IMS. All true? I dunno, but again, I respect this mechanic.
So Pedro, in your experience what are the other failure modes and do you have any suggestions for the paranoid (or cautious?) for additional remediation?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
| Oh, we'll all know when i get it all apart. I'm just saying not all IMS reports are in fact IMSes grant - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 6:48:32 pm |
Gary in SoFL - Tuesday, 13 August, 2013, at 11:55:38 am |
Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I've talked/emailed to/with Charles and Jake several times over the years and they gave me the same kind of information I was asking of you. That is my only connection to them; never met them in person, done anything with them or for them.
"trust but verify" "specificity"
You and I have discussed this topic also, Mike, both publicly and privately. Whatever factual information you gleaned from your relationship with them wasn't, in any detail, shared here.
Never have you, to my knowledge, been so repeatedly demanding of Jake, on any public forum. When people asked him basic questions here, he became quite defensive, somewhat offensive, and just left. Whatever testing he stated was done was anecdotal at best, and absolutely 'unverifiable'. How is that up to the lofty requirements you now demand of Pedro?
Since you (and I for that matter) haven't had a real, or imagined, IMS failure, why does this one issue drive you to be judge and jury?
Odd, and unfair IMHO.
"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."
| Its a trade-off. grant - Monday, 12 August, 2013, at 8:38:50 am |
As Marc says, most modern suspension pieces are sealed. This has an upside and a down-side.
Ont he up-side, they require zero maintenance. This is a big convenience point, but moreover, I would guess that many cars deteriorated due to lack of maintenance. Most people simple don't attend to cars very well.
On the down-side, control arms do fail due to lack of lubrication. Porsches are actually pretty good in this regard- gen-5 Audis are notorious for creaking, dry control arms and in fact, many of us inject grease with a syringe and then re-seal them with OK+ results. But the real answer is replacement.
I would guess that on most cars the service life is > 100k miles.
If you leave a grease fitting you also have to deal-with over-filling, whcih means ( i expect) that you can;t seal it. So the best of both worlds may not be an option.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Ont he up-side, they require zero maintenance. This is a big convenience point, but moreover, I would guess that many cars deteriorated due to lack of maintenance. Most people simple don't attend to cars very well.
On the down-side, control arms do fail due to lack of lubrication. Porsches are actually pretty good in this regard- gen-5 Audis are notorious for creaking, dry control arms and in fact, many of us inject grease with a syringe and then re-seal them with OK+ results. But the real answer is replacement.
I would guess that on most cars the service life is > 100k miles.
If you leave a grease fitting you also have to deal-with over-filling, whcih means ( i expect) that you can;t seal it. So the best of both worlds may not be an option.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
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