Questions for first start up after winter rest |  |  |
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| Questions for first start up after winter rest Bobtesa - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 10:09:30 am |
I read the post on fuel stabilizers with great interest and it got me thinking about starting my Boxster after a 2+ month rest. I have never had to deal with this as I have always (1999 - present) thought it best to drive once or twice a week throughout the winter to keep things lubed and moving. However, this winter in MD, I have not driven my car since about 12/22/13, and I won't start it for a few more weeks (until after rain has washed all of the salt off the roads). So, 2 questions:
1. I didn't use a fuel stabilizer, but I left the tank low, less than 1/4 tank, so as not to have too much "old gas" at start-up. Should I drive the 1/4 tank down to as low as possible, then fill up with fresh gas? Or, before starting it, I can add 3/4 tank of fresh gas (with a few trips with a 5 gallon gas can) so when I am burning the old gas, it is mixed with new gas that helps it all burn out better.
2. From what I think has been posted here, after about 7 days all of the oil on engine parts has drained off, leaving metal parts unprotected. That is why driving regularly is good for the engine and other components. With my car sitting for several months, I will have a "dry" start. This got me thinking (usually a bad thing). Where does the oil filler tube go? Straight to the oil pan, or to the top of the engine? If it goes to the engine, would it do any good to add 1/4 can of oil, let it seep into the engine, wait 1/2 hour or so, then do the initial start? For sure, even if the filler tube goes to the top of the engine, putting a bit of oil in won't lube much, but it might help.
Thanks,
Bob
1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson
1. I didn't use a fuel stabilizer, but I left the tank low, less than 1/4 tank, so as not to have too much "old gas" at start-up. Should I drive the 1/4 tank down to as low as possible, then fill up with fresh gas? Or, before starting it, I can add 3/4 tank of fresh gas (with a few trips with a 5 gallon gas can) so when I am burning the old gas, it is mixed with new gas that helps it all burn out better.
2. From what I think has been posted here, after about 7 days all of the oil on engine parts has drained off, leaving metal parts unprotected. That is why driving regularly is good for the engine and other components. With my car sitting for several months, I will have a "dry" start. This got me thinking (usually a bad thing). Where does the oil filler tube go? Straight to the oil pan, or to the top of the engine? If it goes to the engine, would it do any good to add 1/4 can of oil, let it seep into the engine, wait 1/2 hour or so, then do the initial start? For sure, even if the filler tube goes to the top of the engine, putting a bit of oil in won't lube much, but it might help.
Thanks,
Bob
1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson
| Start the engine and drive the car to a station and fill the tank with fresh gasoline... MarcW - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 12:44:58 pm |
Based on my experience with my sister's car I do not think the gasoline has gone that stale in just a few months' time. Unless absolutely necessary, I do not like using a gas can to add fuel to the gas tank as that is a safety risk.
The oil has not drained off. In many places it can't. The supply high pressure goes away when the engine stops turning and any residual pressure of course bleeds away in no time from the bearings. Zero lash lifters and chain tensioners can retail oil pressure for a while but any zero lash lifters under pressure from an open valve will lose pressure probably in moments.
The oil filler tube routes oil to somewhere inside the engine crankcase. I doubt any significant amount of oil would get on anything even if you dumped in gallons of oil.
Just fire up the engine and let it idle a while as you would normally. The DME cranks the engine a few revs to give oil time to flow -- it begins flowing immediately (gear oil pumps are like that) and pressure builds -- it builds really fast.
The residual oil will suffice the first few engine revs just fine. Note the engine always revs to over 1K RPMs -- in my Boxster to around 1500 RPMs -- upon engine start as this helps form the oil film that is the hydrodynamic "bearing" until the oil flow from the high pressure pump arrives and helps sustain this bearing formation. (I cringe when I read about owners who remove the fuel pump fuse and slow crank the engine to "build" oil pressure or lube a supposedly dry engine. This slow running is likely more harmful than just letting the engine crank and fire and assume its normal cold idle speed.)
Next time you have the car in storage you should consider even if you can't drive the car to at least start the engine and let it idle a while then raise the engine speed with the gas pedal to say 2K and holding it for a few moments then let it return to idle for a while. While there is some concern about water getting in the oil the amount of water is insignificant. And you will have fresh oil -- having changed the oil just before putting the car away -- so there is no residual water in the oil nor any combustion byproducts with which any water can form acids. When the driving season rolls around the first long drive will get the engine and engine oil hot enough to boil away any water that might have gotten into the oil from the 1 to several starts while in "storage".
This starting of course circulates fresh oil throughout the engine and agitates the fuel in the tank and consumes the going stale fuel in the fuel lines and brings in somewhat fresher fuel from the tank. The coolant gets circulated too which helps the water pump seals.
How often to start/run the engine? Off hand I'd say every 4 weeks. Were I in a position that I had to put a car away for the season this is what I'd do.
The oil has not drained off. In many places it can't. The supply high pressure goes away when the engine stops turning and any residual pressure of course bleeds away in no time from the bearings. Zero lash lifters and chain tensioners can retail oil pressure for a while but any zero lash lifters under pressure from an open valve will lose pressure probably in moments.
The oil filler tube routes oil to somewhere inside the engine crankcase. I doubt any significant amount of oil would get on anything even if you dumped in gallons of oil.
Just fire up the engine and let it idle a while as you would normally. The DME cranks the engine a few revs to give oil time to flow -- it begins flowing immediately (gear oil pumps are like that) and pressure builds -- it builds really fast.
The residual oil will suffice the first few engine revs just fine. Note the engine always revs to over 1K RPMs -- in my Boxster to around 1500 RPMs -- upon engine start as this helps form the oil film that is the hydrodynamic "bearing" until the oil flow from the high pressure pump arrives and helps sustain this bearing formation. (I cringe when I read about owners who remove the fuel pump fuse and slow crank the engine to "build" oil pressure or lube a supposedly dry engine. This slow running is likely more harmful than just letting the engine crank and fire and assume its normal cold idle speed.)
Next time you have the car in storage you should consider even if you can't drive the car to at least start the engine and let it idle a while then raise the engine speed with the gas pedal to say 2K and holding it for a few moments then let it return to idle for a while. While there is some concern about water getting in the oil the amount of water is insignificant. And you will have fresh oil -- having changed the oil just before putting the car away -- so there is no residual water in the oil nor any combustion byproducts with which any water can form acids. When the driving season rolls around the first long drive will get the engine and engine oil hot enough to boil away any water that might have gotten into the oil from the 1 to several starts while in "storage".
This starting of course circulates fresh oil throughout the engine and agitates the fuel in the tank and consumes the going stale fuel in the fuel lines and brings in somewhat fresher fuel from the tank. The coolant gets circulated too which helps the water pump seals.
How often to start/run the engine? Off hand I'd say every 4 weeks. Were I in a position that I had to put a car away for the season this is what I'd do.
| MarcW, Thanks for the detailed reply with explanations. Bob *NM* Bobtesa - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 2:05:09 pm |
| There are three reasons I wouldn't start the engine for just a short time during storage Guenter in Ontario - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 2:33:01 pm |
1. You're probably making a much colder start than you would during Spring/Summer/Fall and each start would be a "dry" start with oil relatively thick
2. You get some of that condensation that builds up in the oil.
3. And, to me this seems the worst one. Because the engine is running with a richer fuel mixture at start up, you're get extra gas diluting, contaminating the oil. That's going to sit there at least until you get the car out for a long enough drive to get the engine and oil up to operating temperature for a while. As I said in another post, I didn't realize, until I got my 981 with its oil temperature readout, just how long it take the oil to reach operating temperature. It's considerably longer than it take the coolant.
2. You get some of that condensation that builds up in the oil.
3. And, to me this seems the worst one. Because the engine is running with a richer fuel mixture at start up, you're get extra gas diluting, contaminating the oil. That's going to sit there at least until you get the car out for a long enough drive to get the engine and oil up to operating temperature for a while. As I said in another post, I didn't realize, until I got my 981 with its oil temperature readout, just how long it take the oil to reach operating temperature. It's considerably longer than it take the coolant.
| Cold starts don't appear to bother the cars that spend all year in service. Started my…. MarcW - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 4:45:25 pm |
Quote
Guenter in Ontario
1. You're probably making a much colder start than you would during Spring/Summer/Fall and each start would be a "dry" start with oil relatively thick
2. You get some of that condensation that builds up in the oil.
3. And, to me this seems the worst one. Because the engine is running with a richer fuel mixture at start up, you're get extra gas diluting, contaminating the oil. That's going to sit there at least until you get the car out for a long enough drive to get the engine and oil up to operating temperature for a while. As I said in another post, I didn't realize, until I got my 981 with its oil temperature readout, just how long it take the oil to reach operating temperature. It's considerably longer than it take the coolant.
Boxster in below freezing temps many times with no issues over the years.
As for a dry engine, it is only dry once: at the factory. Thereafter it has oil and retains considerable oil at its critical points even when shut off for a long time. There is no way the engine would be dry of oil after leaving it off even months.
While there is some condensation of water in the combustion at a cold start it is relatively minor. It is no different than an owner starting the car and taking it for a short drive, which many do. Might point out that in the winter humidity is less so there is less moisture to condense out. (Actually based on my experience considerable water build up occurs even with long drives in cold climate. As I have mentioned before the one and only oil analysis I did for my Boxster's oil at around 4K miles after I bought the car found around 7% water in the oil. My usage consisted of 10+ mile drives to and from work, 40 mile drives to and front Overland Park KS from where I lived out in Oak Grove MO, and 70+ mile drives to and then back again from where my parents lived. I mean I had 4K miles on the car in must months after I bought it. They weren't accumulated by the 1 mile drive to the local grocery store.)
As with the water and condensation there will be some fuel condensation and some contamination of the oil, but the amount is insignificant. We're talking a start and longish idle several times -- every month -- during the time the car is parked up. It is not like it is getting started and idled every day.
I'd prefer to fill up the tank, not due to any fear of any condensation as the tank is sealed and doesn't breathe air in and out like the old days, but to keep the fuel pump, lines and fuel level hardware submerged.
Like I said in a previous post if I had to put my car up during the off season I'd run the engine every once in while with no concern at all about any negligible water or fuel build up in the oil. I would breathe easier knowing the expensive to replace seals were getting bathed in fresh oil and fresh oil was getting circulated through the engine.
| Re: Cold starts don't appear to bother the cars that spend all year in service. Started my…. Guenter in Ontario - Monday, 10 March, 2014, at 8:32:56 am |
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MarcW
Boxster in below freezing temps many times with no issues over the years.
As for a dry engine, it is only dry once: at the factory. Thereafter it has oil and retains considerable oil at its critical points even when shut off for a long time. There is no way the engine would be dry of oil after leaving it off even months.
While there is some condensation of water in the combustion at a cold start it is relatively minor. It is no different than an owner starting the car and taking it for a short drive, which many do. Might point out that in the winter humidity is less so there is less moisture to condense out. (Actually based on my experience considerable water build up occurs even with long drives in cold climate. As I have mentioned before the one and only oil analysis I did for my Boxster's oil at around 4K miles after I bought the car found around 7% water in the oil. My usage consisted of 10+ mile drives to and from work, 40 mile drives to and front Overland Park KS from where I lived out in Oak Grove MO, and 70+ mile drives to and then back again from where my parents lived. I mean I had 4K miles on the car in must months after I bought it. They weren't accumulated by the 1 mile drive to the local grocery store.)
As with the water and condensation there will be some fuel condensation and some contamination of the oil, but the amount is insignificant. We're talking a start and longish idle several times -- every month -- during the time the car is parked up. It is not like it is getting started and idled every day.
I'd prefer to fill up the tank, not due to any fear of any condensation as the tank is sealed and doesn't breathe air in and out like the old days, but to keep the fuel pump, lines and fuel level hardware submerged.
Like I said in a previous post if I had to put my car up during the off season I'd run the engine every once in while with no concern at all about any negligible water or fuel build up in the oil. I would breathe easier knowing the expensive to replace seals were getting bathed in fresh oil and fresh oil was getting circulated through the engine.
If as you say, there's no way the engine would be dry of oil after leaving it off even months, then what's the point of running the engine to circulate the oil?
| Running the engine once in a while while the car is put away in the off season circulates the oil... MarcW - Friday, 14 March, 2014, at 2:11:27 pm |
and among other things wets the seals. While the oil in the seal remains any vertical seal -- both the front and rear main seals for instance -- will lose their coating of oil. The seal dries and in doing so shrinks. (It is not helped by the oil -- POA based -- which is not seal friendly which is why ester is added to this oil. Ester is seal friendly.)
The engine oil also recoats various ferrous parts -- like springs, rods, crankshaft, chains, cams -- that lose a considerable amount of their oil film over time -- which helps reduce the possibility of rust spots forming. These if they form can develop and turn into stress points and lead to mechanical failure. A broken spring is bad enough but a broken rod or crank is probably fatal to the engine. With the cams corrosion can set up between the cam lobe and the lifter bucket face. If this happens at some point at the highest spot on the cam lobe this can lead to further degradation of this lobe when the engine is used during the car's active season.
The fuel pump also agitates the fuel in the tank -- which deals instantly with any stratification of the fuel -- and of course in the fuel lines. By running the engine this helps flush stale(er) fuel out of the lines and injectors.
The coolant is also agitated -- which deals with any stratification of the coolant -- and circulated which helps seals exposed to the coolant and of course the internal surfaces off all hoses.
The A/C should be run a while to circulate refrigerant and compressor oil which helps the A/C seals weather the periods of inactivity.
I have to stress these engines serve no useful function when not running. The very reason the car exists is because the engine runs. Every automaker strives to deliver an engine that runs and runs a long time so the car has a long service life. To put the car away for months at a time -- though I can understand the desire to avoid subjecting the car to the conditions that are present during these months -- it is an unnatural state for the engine and the car.
By running the engine a few times periodically while the car is put away helps mitigate the negatives arising from lack of use for months at a time. Given that in most areas the car is put away for say 3 or 4 months the engine would be started and run maybe 3 or 4 times (once a month). This does not subject the engine to any more than it would experience during the active season if the owner used the car for a few short trips in a row. Since the car is put away with fresh oil -- with nearly zero miles on it -- the oil can withstand without any problems a few "short trips" during the off season.
The engine oil also recoats various ferrous parts -- like springs, rods, crankshaft, chains, cams -- that lose a considerable amount of their oil film over time -- which helps reduce the possibility of rust spots forming. These if they form can develop and turn into stress points and lead to mechanical failure. A broken spring is bad enough but a broken rod or crank is probably fatal to the engine. With the cams corrosion can set up between the cam lobe and the lifter bucket face. If this happens at some point at the highest spot on the cam lobe this can lead to further degradation of this lobe when the engine is used during the car's active season.
The fuel pump also agitates the fuel in the tank -- which deals instantly with any stratification of the fuel -- and of course in the fuel lines. By running the engine this helps flush stale(er) fuel out of the lines and injectors.
The coolant is also agitated -- which deals with any stratification of the coolant -- and circulated which helps seals exposed to the coolant and of course the internal surfaces off all hoses.
The A/C should be run a while to circulate refrigerant and compressor oil which helps the A/C seals weather the periods of inactivity.
I have to stress these engines serve no useful function when not running. The very reason the car exists is because the engine runs. Every automaker strives to deliver an engine that runs and runs a long time so the car has a long service life. To put the car away for months at a time -- though I can understand the desire to avoid subjecting the car to the conditions that are present during these months -- it is an unnatural state for the engine and the car.
By running the engine a few times periodically while the car is put away helps mitigate the negatives arising from lack of use for months at a time. Given that in most areas the car is put away for say 3 or 4 months the engine would be started and run maybe 3 or 4 times (once a month). This does not subject the engine to any more than it would experience during the active season if the owner used the car for a few short trips in a row. Since the car is put away with fresh oil -- with nearly zero miles on it -- the oil can withstand without any problems a few "short trips" during the off season.
| Re: Running the engine once in a while while the car is put away in the off season circulates the oil... moresquirt - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 8:07:39 pm |
| I agree with pretty much everything Marc said grant - Monday, 10 March, 2014, at 2:34:26 pm |
Laz - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 3:46:43 pm |
| Re: At the next long-term storage, fill the tank. Air = oxygen = oxidation. Guenter in Ontario - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 4:05:54 pm |
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Laz
Also, use Stabil in the proper proportion, and run the motor so that it gets to the fuel delivery system, especially the einspritzdüsen.
Good point about running the motor so the treated fuel reaches the einspritzdüsen. You wouldn't want to get them clogged. What I do before putting the car away for storage is add Staybil to the tank, then fill the tank. The agitating action when filling the tank, should mix the Staybil and gas. I figure a 3 - 4 mile drive to the hibernation pad should be enough to get the treated fuel into the injectors.
I think leaving a large portion of the tank empty, can also lead to some condensation forming at the top of the tank. Maybe not a big issue, but when some of that water gets to the einspritzdüsen in Spring, you might notice a bit of a hesitation since water doesn't burn all that well.
Boxsterra - Friday, 14 March, 2014, at 8:10:35 am |
Since the Volt doesn't use gas during normal operation they had to solve the problem of gas sitting in the tank for extended periods of time.
[green.autoblog.com]
[media.gm.com]
[green.autoblog.com]
[media.gm.com]
| Re: Questions for first start up after winter rest moresquirt - Saturday, 8 March, 2014, at 5:30:42 pm |
arc,thats an interesting anology that hols some merit,i have always believed in not running the motor during storage to prevent condensation,but what if u cant drive the car because of snow,then all i can do is let it idle
and rev it a bit.porsche clearly states in the manual not to do that,not sure why,maybe because the fuel mix is considerably richer at start up and that can wash the cylinders with xcess fuel and also cause the spark plugs
to possibly fail.What i am trying to weight out is the trade off,vital seals being lubed or plugs fouling and a little extra water in the fuel.U are starting to sway me.I love new theorys with merit.
and rev it a bit.porsche clearly states in the manual not to do that,not sure why,maybe because the fuel mix is considerably richer at start up and that can wash the cylinders with xcess fuel and also cause the spark plugs
to possibly fail.What i am trying to weight out is the trade off,vital seals being lubed or plugs fouling and a little extra water in the fuel.U are starting to sway me.I love new theorys with merit.
| Re: Questions for first start up after winter rest moresquirt - Monday, 10 March, 2014, at 9:04:23 am |
How about just turning the crank slowly with some big adjustable wrench say 8 times,Would that not be better than having the motor crank real hard with no
lube after it all drains down from sitting all winter.Pulling the fuel pump fuse is a good idea.have read that before and is good advise.
lube after it all drains down from sitting all winter.Pulling the fuel pump fuse is a good idea.have read that before and is good advise.
| I started a car I had stored for almost 7 years!!! Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Sunday, 9 March, 2014, at 11:05:04 am |
No kidding.....
I had an '82 Datsun 280ZX turbo I stored in cave in Wampum PA. It was an old cement mine that had over 2 million square feet of storage and I stored my car there when I moved to Manhatten not knowing how long I would live there or would need a car. Well, almost 7 years went by......
[wampumunderground.com]
I drove the car into the mine, removed the battery, and....... walked away. I may have put some sort of stabilizer in the gas tank but I really don't remember and doubt that I did. Well 7 years later, we rolled up to the car in their golf cart (loaded with tools and compressed air) and saw the tires were down about 1/2 pressure (they say they top off the tires as a service but did not). There was not much gas in the tank and I remember we carried a gas can down with us to make sure we could drive away. I installed the battery...... got behind the wheel....... and it turned over a few times... then WHooooooom!!!!!! The F'R STARTED RIGHT UP!!!! My father and I looked at each other and started to laugh out loud! I thought we were going to have to call a tow truck but figured we would give it a try.
The only issue with the drivability was square tires..... man those things vibrated. The tires, Goodyears, actually smoothed out fairly well during the 40 mnt drive back home. I immediately took the car to a now Nissan dealer and had the car checked out and the injectors blown out (not sure if it really needed it). The car checked out totally fine except there was a leak in the muffler.... so a new muffler and I put on new belts and hoses. But that was it.
The end of the story? Nope..... cars don't like to sit. About 30 days later I started having problems...... gaskets were leaking.... I started having all kinds of problems.... bushings went bad..... I needed the car for distance driving and couldn't count on it so I sold it...... I got only $3K for it. The car was in perfect body shape and the engine had tons of power and was really smooth. I really should have kept it as $3K is nothing but I just had no where to store it and I didn't want to put it back into the mine.... not expensive but not cheap either.
I am not saying gas stabilizer is bunk, but my car certainly started up and ran fuel that was 7 years old!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2014 11:07AM by Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S). (view changes)
I had an '82 Datsun 280ZX turbo I stored in cave in Wampum PA. It was an old cement mine that had over 2 million square feet of storage and I stored my car there when I moved to Manhatten not knowing how long I would live there or would need a car. Well, almost 7 years went by......
[wampumunderground.com]
I drove the car into the mine, removed the battery, and....... walked away. I may have put some sort of stabilizer in the gas tank but I really don't remember and doubt that I did. Well 7 years later, we rolled up to the car in their golf cart (loaded with tools and compressed air) and saw the tires were down about 1/2 pressure (they say they top off the tires as a service but did not). There was not much gas in the tank and I remember we carried a gas can down with us to make sure we could drive away. I installed the battery...... got behind the wheel....... and it turned over a few times... then WHooooooom!!!!!! The F'R STARTED RIGHT UP!!!! My father and I looked at each other and started to laugh out loud! I thought we were going to have to call a tow truck but figured we would give it a try.
The only issue with the drivability was square tires..... man those things vibrated. The tires, Goodyears, actually smoothed out fairly well during the 40 mnt drive back home. I immediately took the car to a now Nissan dealer and had the car checked out and the injectors blown out (not sure if it really needed it). The car checked out totally fine except there was a leak in the muffler.... so a new muffler and I put on new belts and hoses. But that was it.
The end of the story? Nope..... cars don't like to sit. About 30 days later I started having problems...... gaskets were leaking.... I started having all kinds of problems.... bushings went bad..... I needed the car for distance driving and couldn't count on it so I sold it...... I got only $3K for it. The car was in perfect body shape and the engine had tons of power and was really smooth. I really should have kept it as $3K is nothing but I just had no where to store it and I didn't want to put it back into the mine.... not expensive but not cheap either.
I am not saying gas stabilizer is bunk, but my car certainly started up and ran fuel that was 7 years old!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2014 11:07AM by Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S). (view changes)
| Oh, and I did put new tires on it right away. Bridgstones as I had always hated those Goodyears. *NM* Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Sunday, 9 March, 2014, at 11:37:02 am |
| Re: Questions for first start up after winter rest San Rensho - Monday, 10 March, 2014, at 12:16:02 am |
| Hmmm..... Cranking engine without firing..... Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Monday, 10 March, 2014, at 12:06:36 pm |
Sounds totally OK, but....
My indy was talking about Lotuses and they had problems with their Toyota engines.... something about valve guide problems. Lotus diagnosed the issue as a too slow idle so they changed the software to increase the idle at startup for the purpose of getting more oil to the engine. My wife's Lexus roars up the RPMs when started and they sure seem high to me.
So.... it appears Lotus wants to have a fast idle at startup to get the oil going...... maybe there is no real advantage to slow cranking to move the oil into the system.
Opinions?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
My indy was talking about Lotuses and they had problems with their Toyota engines.... something about valve guide problems. Lotus diagnosed the issue as a too slow idle so they changed the software to increase the idle at startup for the purpose of getting more oil to the engine. My wife's Lexus roars up the RPMs when started and they sure seem high to me.
So.... it appears Lotus wants to have a fast idle at startup to get the oil going...... maybe there is no real advantage to slow cranking to move the oil into the system.
Opinions?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
| Re: Hmmm..... Cranking engine without firing..... moresquirt - Tuesday, 11 March, 2014, at 9:47:11 am |
Hand cranking cannot be compared to a low idle.U cannot cause any problems with a slow hand crank but a low idle start for a fairly dry motor makes thing move to fast but not fast enough for proper oil pressure
and therefore could cause more wear.I think there is a happy medium here.Thats why i believe most vechicles are designed to go into a high idle on cold start up .Porsche really richens up the fuelmixture
on cold start up and therfore want u to get moving rite away but nothing higher than 4000 rpm until temp is at normal .I have tried both ways and if i let the car idle for say 4 or 5 min i find that it will smoke
alot out the tail pipe even thruout the day on warmer starts,just waaay to much fuel.I also think that can contribute to AOS,02 sensor ect issues.I now start and go regardless of temp out and never see smoke
out the tail pipe.The only time i let it idle a little more is if i have been driving it really hard i willl let it idle for a minute or 2 before shutting it down.I find if i just shut it down quik after a hard run its hard to start again.
Sorry getting off topic here,just some observations .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2014 09:50AM by moresquirt. (view changes)
and therefore could cause more wear.I think there is a happy medium here.Thats why i believe most vechicles are designed to go into a high idle on cold start up .Porsche really richens up the fuelmixture
on cold start up and therfore want u to get moving rite away but nothing higher than 4000 rpm until temp is at normal .I have tried both ways and if i let the car idle for say 4 or 5 min i find that it will smoke
alot out the tail pipe even thruout the day on warmer starts,just waaay to much fuel.I also think that can contribute to AOS,02 sensor ect issues.I now start and go regardless of temp out and never see smoke
out the tail pipe.The only time i let it idle a little more is if i have been driving it really hard i willl let it idle for a minute or 2 before shutting it down.I find if i just shut it down quik after a hard run its hard to start again.
Sorry getting off topic here,just some observations .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2014 09:50AM by moresquirt. (view changes)
| This is often advised and on the surface seems like good advice but I do not believe it is... MarcW - Friday, 14 March, 2014, at 2:22:49 pm |
good advise. The oil pump begins pumping oil as soon as the engine spins from the starter. The DME my info is allows a couple of revs to give the oil time to flow/pressurize the oil supply galleys to the big bearings. However, I note on my Boxster the oil pressure gage is located at about as far away from the oil pump as it can get and yet the oil pressure light never remains on after the engine fires.
Anyhow, the engine fires right up and of course always the engine RPMs go to nearly 2K and then fall back to cold idle (around 1K).
This is done on purpose. This relatively high RPM is done as a safety precaution to cause the hydrodynamic oil bearing to form so there is no metal to metal contact upon engine start.
Prolonged slow cranking -- the engine starter spins the engine at around 75 to 100 RPMs which is very slow so it is not like the oil pressure will be anywhere near what it will be when the engine starts and runs at say 1000 RPMs -- while this supplies oil will possibly not supply oil at sufficient pressure to help the form the hydrodynamic oil bearings.
Thus this slow cranking could be subjecting the engine to wear the owner is seeking to avoid.
I say could be. The problem is we have a lot of history with engines that experience the standard, industry wide, start procedure. Every car I've owned has done revs thing at start up. We have essentially zero history with cars/engines subjected to this remove the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine on the starter to "pre-oil" the engine before a start.
Frankly, I'm not interested in using my cars as test beds to determine if this practice is not harmful. Whether it is beneficial is even harder to prove as the lack of any problems just matches the experience owners have that don't bother with this technique.
Anyhow, the engine fires right up and of course always the engine RPMs go to nearly 2K and then fall back to cold idle (around 1K).
This is done on purpose. This relatively high RPM is done as a safety precaution to cause the hydrodynamic oil bearing to form so there is no metal to metal contact upon engine start.
Prolonged slow cranking -- the engine starter spins the engine at around 75 to 100 RPMs which is very slow so it is not like the oil pressure will be anywhere near what it will be when the engine starts and runs at say 1000 RPMs -- while this supplies oil will possibly not supply oil at sufficient pressure to help the form the hydrodynamic oil bearings.
Thus this slow cranking could be subjecting the engine to wear the owner is seeking to avoid.
I say could be. The problem is we have a lot of history with engines that experience the standard, industry wide, start procedure. Every car I've owned has done revs thing at start up. We have essentially zero history with cars/engines subjected to this remove the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine on the starter to "pre-oil" the engine before a start.
Frankly, I'm not interested in using my cars as test beds to determine if this practice is not harmful. Whether it is beneficial is even harder to prove as the lack of any problems just matches the experience owners have that don't bother with this technique.
| Re: This is often advised and on the surface seems like good advice but I do not believe it is... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 7:55:38 am |
I’m of the school that thinks that not starting the car during storage is best.
I say this because most engine wear happens during the first few seconds after startup, while the oil builds up pressure and starts lubricating the engine internals.
If you’re really concerned about that initial startup wear, the following is the procedure that the Porsche Museum uses for their cars on display:
1-Remove the spark plugs
2-Spray WD-40 into each cylinder through the spark plug hole
3-Spray WD-40 into the air intakes
4-Turn over the engine by hand a couple of turns with a wrench on the main pulley
5-Every 3 months repeat above (leave spark plugs out of the engine)
6-Every 3 months move the car a bit to change the position of the wheel bearings
7-On a manual gearbox, shift into gear when doing above (No. 6) to move the transmission internals
8-Drive the car every 6 months.
Here's the complete article on Storing your Porsche that's been published by multiple PCA Newsletters:
[pedrosgarage.com]
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
I say this because most engine wear happens during the first few seconds after startup, while the oil builds up pressure and starts lubricating the engine internals.
If you’re really concerned about that initial startup wear, the following is the procedure that the Porsche Museum uses for their cars on display:
1-Remove the spark plugs
2-Spray WD-40 into each cylinder through the spark plug hole
3-Spray WD-40 into the air intakes
4-Turn over the engine by hand a couple of turns with a wrench on the main pulley
5-Every 3 months repeat above (leave spark plugs out of the engine)
6-Every 3 months move the car a bit to change the position of the wheel bearings
7-On a manual gearbox, shift into gear when doing above (No. 6) to move the transmission internals
8-Drive the car every 6 months.
Here's the complete article on Storing your Porsche that's been published by multiple PCA Newsletters:
[pedrosgarage.com]
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| I second this, and point again to what i said above.... grant - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 10:04:55 am |
if you do start it, you are now dumping gas, water ad acid by products into your oil, where they will eat at everyhing, including the half-submerged IMS bearing.
So if you start it, get it on the hgihway and run it 30 minutes with the oil over boiling.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
So if you start it, get it on the hgihway and run it 30 minutes with the oil over boiling.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Re: This is often advised and on the surface seems like good advice but I do not believe it is... Guenter in Ontario - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 9:05:34 pm |
| You move it by gently pushing it ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 10:54:32 pm |
... if the spark plugs are out, the engine turns over very easily.
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Happy Boxstering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: You move it by gently pushing it ... Guenter in Ontario - Saturday, 15 March, 2014, at 11:15:04 pm |
Gary in SoFL - Monday, 17 March, 2014, at 10:43:53 am |
| That most wear occurs at engine start up "fact" has been tossed around for years... MarcW - Monday, 17 March, 2014, at 11:27:11 am |
but I simply can't accept it. How do you account for say my car with 277K miles and its engine which has seen more starts than I can imagine still not worn out? Or in the case of a Turbo owner who had 400K miles on his car's engine and removed the engine to address some leaks and rebuild what he expected to be a worn out engine and found no measurable wear?
Primarily I believe wear is chemical in nature, barring those rare instances of running an oil way too long to the point it can no longer prevent metal to metal contact. As acids build up in the oil this acid attacks the metal of the engine removing material between the grains of metal. Upon engine start and as the engine runs in the more confined spaces the violence of the oil from the friction plucks these now loosened grains of metal away and this is wear. If the crankcase walls shed some metal no big deal. But if the metal being shed is at the crankshaft journal and main bearing interface or the rod journal and rod journal bearing, or in one of the many zero-lash adjusters, this acid induced wear is a bigger deal.
Museum cars do not have to pass smog, deliver good gas mileage, deliver acceptable oil consumption, all they have to do is survive. Owners who park their cars up over the winter want more than survival. For a car other than a museum car periodic starting the engine and running it a while is preferred to letting the engine just sit, for reasons I have covered.
While there is a little water build up in the oil it is no more than would be present if the owner used the car for a couple of short trips and many do and this certainly doesn't strike fear into the hearts of car owners, most pay it no mind. Nor is there any more wear arising from these couple of starts -- going back to that most wear occurs upon startup fact -- than there would be from starts during the car's active season, which again certainly doesn't strike fear into the hearts of owners.
I would never use WD-40 in an engine's cylinders or any where else in an engine. Sprayed into the cylinders this dilutes/washes away any residual oil at the cylinder/piston/ring interface. Upon a real start the residual oil is gone and this can result in the wear one seeks to avoid.
Primarily I believe wear is chemical in nature, barring those rare instances of running an oil way too long to the point it can no longer prevent metal to metal contact. As acids build up in the oil this acid attacks the metal of the engine removing material between the grains of metal. Upon engine start and as the engine runs in the more confined spaces the violence of the oil from the friction plucks these now loosened grains of metal away and this is wear. If the crankcase walls shed some metal no big deal. But if the metal being shed is at the crankshaft journal and main bearing interface or the rod journal and rod journal bearing, or in one of the many zero-lash adjusters, this acid induced wear is a bigger deal.
Museum cars do not have to pass smog, deliver good gas mileage, deliver acceptable oil consumption, all they have to do is survive. Owners who park their cars up over the winter want more than survival. For a car other than a museum car periodic starting the engine and running it a while is preferred to letting the engine just sit, for reasons I have covered.
While there is a little water build up in the oil it is no more than would be present if the owner used the car for a couple of short trips and many do and this certainly doesn't strike fear into the hearts of car owners, most pay it no mind. Nor is there any more wear arising from these couple of starts -- going back to that most wear occurs upon startup fact -- than there would be from starts during the car's active season, which again certainly doesn't strike fear into the hearts of owners.
I would never use WD-40 in an engine's cylinders or any where else in an engine. Sprayed into the cylinders this dilutes/washes away any residual oil at the cylinder/piston/ring interface. Upon a real start the residual oil is gone and this can result in the wear one seeks to avoid.
| Re: That most wear occurs at engine start up "fact" has been tossed around for years... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 17 March, 2014, at 12:19:29 pm |
Quote
MarcW
I would never use WD-40 in an engine's cylinders or any where else in an engine. Sprayed into the cylinders this dilutes/washes away any residual oil at the cylinder/piston/ring interface. Upon a real start the residual oil is gone and this can result in the wear one seeks to avoid.
Then send an email to the Porsche Museum and tell them they're wrong.
Tell them they're doing irreparable damage to those cars!
That's what they've been doing for ages on priceless engines.
Happy Boxtering
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2014 12:35PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| Marc, I dont see much conflict in your evidence... and I agree (partly) with your assertion that... grant - Monday, 17 March, 2014, at 1:39:46 pm |
"Primarily I believe wear is chemical in nature". We've had long discussions about IMS bearings sitting in a water-oil-acid bath. And, of course, its not just the IMS bearing.
....but your data point of cars with 277k and 400k having lots of starts, i'll note they almost by definition also have lots of miles, and probably,compared to the average, many more miles-per-start than most. So they are evidence, if anything at all, of Pedro's point. I assert they are evidence of little except longevity and the role that your regular use and proper maintenance play in longevity.
I would counter that semi-dry starts, rich running, and cold, not-to-dimension parts cannot be good for wear, while a warm motor in hydrodynamic lubrication has almost no wear - proven fact via lubrication testing. They issue occurs when hydrodynamic lubrication FAILS - low oil, overly hot, overly fast rpms, improper oil, oil too cold and not flowing.....
Starts and miles aside, people would be best off dealing with the adverse conditions that you allude to - eliminate/reduce acid, stress while cold/rich, extreme heat, etc. Several of those are solved by regular oil changes and sufficient regular running at full operating temperature.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
....but your data point of cars with 277k and 400k having lots of starts, i'll note they almost by definition also have lots of miles, and probably,compared to the average, many more miles-per-start than most. So they are evidence, if anything at all, of Pedro's point. I assert they are evidence of little except longevity and the role that your regular use and proper maintenance play in longevity.
I would counter that semi-dry starts, rich running, and cold, not-to-dimension parts cannot be good for wear, while a warm motor in hydrodynamic lubrication has almost no wear - proven fact via lubrication testing. They issue occurs when hydrodynamic lubrication FAILS - low oil, overly hot, overly fast rpms, improper oil, oil too cold and not flowing.....
Starts and miles aside, people would be best off dealing with the adverse conditions that you allude to - eliminate/reduce acid, stress while cold/rich, extreme heat, etc. Several of those are solved by regular oil changes and sufficient regular running at full operating temperature.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| When I say that... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Monday, 17 March, 2014, at 3:14:32 pm |
... most engine wear happens during the first few seconds after startup, while the oil builds up pressure and starts lubricating the engine internals, I'm talking mostly about timing chains, sprockets, chain guides, etc.
With the modern coatings on the cylinders and rings there is very little wear there. I've seen engines with over 200,000 miles where the cylinder wear is hard to measure, yet sprockets are worn to stubs, chains are elongated, chain guides are almost non-existent, etc.
Haoppy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
With the modern coatings on the cylinders and rings there is very little wear there. I've seen engines with over 200,000 miles where the cylinder wear is hard to measure, yet sprockets are worn to stubs, chains are elongated, chain guides are almost non-existent, etc.
Haoppy Porscheing,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
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