Yo, Mike.......

I find those who talk about buying a new car to save money on repairs really funny.

You get a new car and your payments are at least $500. per month (probably more) That's $6000 per year.

You can do a whole lot of repairs for that kind of money. Even if the engine blows up, if'n you get 2 years out of the new one- you are still ahead of the game.

I totally get the "piece of mind" argument, but I have no patience whatsoever for the saving money argument.

For the record, I also subscribe to the don't fix it if it ain't broke theory.

.. you have to add repairs and depreciation to have a comp.

J have found that over time, used cars eat up $125/mo >> new ones do (oil changes etc are a wash).

As a partial DIY guy, i'm usually well under that long term.

So far the boxster has been quite cheap.

Grant

it is to come up with the money to pay for a substantial repair of a car.

Generally, one is better off buying a car, taking good care of it, and driving it until the wheels fall off.

But sometimes a large repair bill, or several in a row (FYI I just spent over $3K on my Boxster), coupled with a new model or the desire to own/drive another car for a while works to tempt one from what is generally best.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Yeah, it's pretty much a BS excuse (if talking about buying brand new). Most just want a new car and feel the need to rationalize. If buying a new used car, then one may come out ahead with the right deal. Now, if they had said something about not liking the hassle of more frequent repairs, which may be the case with an older car, then I'd buy that. But, of course, there are plenty of new cars seeing the inside of repair shops, too.

Brett

varies by person, time, circumstances, etc.

Buy versus lease. New versus used. Repair versus buy. Is this the last repair? How will I feel if the new one is dinged in a parking lot? Is 90% good enough? Where can I get it repaired?

Trade-in versus sell it yourself? Hassle versus maybe more? Risk versus reward?

My idea of fun and yours don't have to match. My aspirational car varies as my son's family expands and I find myself wanting a mini-van again for trips to the fair, the kindergarten play, etc. I essentially traded the mini-van that was my wife's for the Porsche 6 years ago. And the seller of my first P-car replaced it with a Hummer to accommodate her expanding family.

Ain't life grand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2011 05:07PM by mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC. (view changes)

Yes, I agree with you - and all of my "new" cars are used cars.

Generally, you are right - the cost of repairs is almost always less than that of a new car, and often still less than the price of a comparable used car.

However, there is a time consideration - I have owned a series of Audi Quattros (love them as cars) but I always tell everyone, based on my experience, to get rid of them before 125K - they are very complex and lots of stuff starts to break. And it is not so much the cost if keeping the car running as the time - the last one I had (which I wish I kept) had 200K and was a blast to drive, but I was taking it in for repairs once a month toward the end - which gets annoying as a daily driver.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

shops can be a pain. Often it easier and faster to fix it myself. I will also 2nd that while my Audis have been very durable ( actually 125 is nothing, i routinely go > 300k), they are very difficult to work on, and require a lot of maint. Much harder and more maint than our boxsters.

Grant

Yes - incredibly complex cars. I loved my 200 Turbo Quattro 20V. But in a moment of incredible Audi Engineering, they ran one of the vacuum lines off the turbo right under the exhaust manifold, it would get hot, and under full boost the hose would collapse closed under the vacuum, causing an ECU fault and a sudden cut-out of fuel. After about a month of dealing with this, I finally figure it out and put this vacuum line on the list of 15K service items.

1998 986 Turbo-Look Cab
172,000 Miles
Dilithium Crystal Supercharger

I agree about the saving money part. I don't think buying a new car saves money.

My experience goes back to my first used car I bought. 51 Morris Minor. Owned it for a year. Filled up the tank and had it in for repairs twice a month. The last straw came when I came up on a red light. I hit the brakes, pedal went to the floor and I sailed on right through. Lucky for me there was no-one coming the other way.

Since then, I've bought new cars and kept them 8 - 10 years, usually taking them up to around 150K miles. That way I know how the car has been broken in and cared for. I've never had a major repair with any of them (all VW's and Audis). Generally just oil changes, tuneups and wear and tear stuff like tires and brakes. It works for me, maybe not for someone else. I doubt that I saved money, but I don't think I spend a whole lot more than someone who bought used either.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

C'mon - we all know the "saves money" argument is just an excuse for the significant other! "Gosh, honey, I just bought that new 2011 Turbo to save the cost of repairing my old Boxster!!!"

There all sorts of reasons to buy a new car - but usually the real one is "I lust after the new model with more power, more gadgets and more bling".

mike

and decided to spend the money on repairs again. My non-Porsche daily driver/beater is a 1997 Chevy Blazer with 125K that I have owned since new. I have a short drive to the train station and it also does Home Depot duty for working on my home and rental properties. It just shat another fuel pump, the second in three years, which is an expensive piece with few or no aftermarket alternatives. Also, it died at the train station. Aggravating on both counts but only the second time it has stranded me in 13.5 years so I try to keep perspective. It owes me the rest of 2011 without a major bill. Minor stuff is expected with any car and I don't sweat that.

My view is that an occasional repair, even somewhat large, is a reasonable trade-off for the overall $$ savings of an older car. The decision point is when you join the "hassle of the month club". If an old car cannot get you from point a to point b with at least reasonble reliability, it is no longer providing value. I know that some people have no other choice but I assume for those of us on this board, myself included, it is truly a choice to keep an old car on the road. I know what I will shop for when the time comes to replace it but today is not that time.

Generally I agree that a used but well-maintained car is a better buy, however, you are forgetting that time is money. I don't buy a car so I can spend hours and hours repairing it and chasing after other people to repair it. For one's daily driver, if your entire livelihood depends on the car, you want the most reliable car possible so you are always on-time to work without fail. If in business, one does not want to show up for business appointments with an old worn-out car. Bad for business. Looks like you don't know what you are doing. This improper but true -- it's the impression you leave with others that matters. The new model gives the owner the peace of mind that for 4 years at least he or she is unlikely to be stranded, and if perchance he is stranded, he's going to be covered by the warranty instead of left somewhere by the side of the highway in a bad part of town.

In my case, I had the 99 Box and it was a fine machine, but the threat of IMS leaving me stranded somewhere with a $15,000 door stop, and the fact the car needed a new top and lots of other improvement projects, convinced my wife that we needed a new, reliable car. Yeah, and the fact that at 6'-4", my head was going to hit the roll bar in the 99 Box if I got in a rear end collision. Try putting a value on that one as a used car! That and rock-bottom prices at the dealer was how I ended up buying the (new) 08 Cayman in April 09.

It's about $2-3k for an engine tops.
Another $2-3k for labor to replace.

New top installed ~$1,000.

The total cost of all of that ($5-7k) is about the cost of just the options on a new Boxster/Cayman.

Having a new car is great but the cost is 10x as much.

Maybe $2-3K would cover the parts cost for an engine from a junker, but not the labor. And if you are just going to replace an old worn out engine with another old worn-out engine, what is the point? I was referring to a good rebuilt engine with labor and everywhere I've read, this is a $10-15K job including all the parts and labor, or even more if you try to upgrade to one of Raby's best engines which would deliver new-Boxster level performance. And who's going to do the work? My local Porsche dealer? He's the one who is 40 miles from my house and wanted to sand down the wheels on my Cayman and repaint them to get rid of the cosmoline. Fortunately I haven't had to have any further dealings with him after I removed the cosmoline myself. I pray daily that nothing breaks that requires warranty service. I got one indie guy (not one shop, just one guy) who is doing my maintenance work. Not surprisingly, he is stacked up and you have to have an appointment a couple of weeks out to get work done.

As for the top, if you can find somebody in the Midwest who knows what they are doing who can replace a Boxster top for $1000, let me know who it is. I got estimates and it was going to be twice your estimate, and I had no confidence in their ability, either. "Have you ever replaced a Boxster top?" "No, but I did a 68 Cadillac once." That is the kind of service you get nowadays. I hope you are understanding why I prefer not to mess around with "service." If you are in Southern California or some other place where you have a good supply of experienced Porsche mechanics, your situation might be different.

The dollar amounts aren't that important to my post anyway. I freely concede that an older car is the best financial decision. The point is that you would be out of service trying to chase down all these repairs and upgrades, and after you do all that, you have a ton of time and money and you still have an OLD car. And there will always be something going wrong with an older car. Water pumps, AOS, brakes, CV joints, etc. etc. all start wearing out and they don't all go out at the same time, hence more and more visits to the shop for repairs. I personally find that I enjoy driving the car and doing other spare-time pursuits a lot more than wondering who will fix "X" and whether the "Y" will give out on me again. I don't want to be in a close personal relationship with the guy who has the flatbed truck. I did that in high school and college and have no desire to do that again.

But the cost for the difference between a middling-optioned base 987 and the worth of a '99 986 in trade is in the $40k range. For around half that you could install a new more powerful and completely rebuilt engine with all the fixes, plus replace ancillaries like AOS, oil tank, anti-freeze tank, clutch, CV boots, etc new too. Pay lots less taxes/registration/insurance/etc. over the life of the warranty you wouldn't have. Even tires are probably cheaper going forward.

Yes the potential hassle factor is slightly different in getting it that rebuilt state. And you don't have nanny-Porsche to be responsible for 4 years.

But you have say $15k in the bank or in some investment that actually yields something. Or you aren't paying interest on that borrowed amount. Someone once told me not to put serious money in an asset you know will depreciate. So I buy my golf cart used, my clubs as 2 year old demos, my car as 3rd owner. Because I'm not trying to get that last 10% of whatever and I'll only pay so much for convenience/prestige.

You also don't arrive at the business meeting in a car that says "I spent a lot". An 'aw-shucks it is a 12 year old car and worth lots less than yours' defuses the envy factor. It shows a more subtle taste...that of those who can afford to drive a classic every day.

(I hear that roll bar argument. I have one seat setting for in-town use and another one for over the uncrowded interstates. One favors safety, the other comfort.)

Agree that it is not a cost savings idea to buy new. However, I would bet that the total cost of ownership over a 5 year period is closer than you think when you add in repairs and depreciation. That being said, let's face it, we don't buy P-cars just for transportation, and there is an element of fun involved with buy, driving and owning a new and different car. So, it is all part of the cost/benefit equation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2011 11:11AM by garyinseattle. (view changes)

$1500/year plus depreciation. On costly cars, its far cheaper to fix. On cheap cars maybe not.
Incidentally, ron Ananian, WOR's car doctor, uses the same figure through coincidence.

For example, my S6 avant depreciated about 30-35k over the first 3 years. (for someone else, btw) Say $10k/year.

Its now depreciating at roughly $4k per year over the next 10. And at 9 drives like new.

Add $1500/year average to maint and i'm way ahead.

So far the boxster looks much cheaper to maint. The big event on the audi - the periodic timing belt, does not exist.

Grant

From memory



Bought 5 year old car with ~40k miles for ~$28k

Year zero $2200 to get it to a major service level and redo brakes, alignment. $50 replace 4 tires!!!
Year one $150 oil change.
Year two $150 oil change $200 seat belt
Year three $80 oil change, $120 O2 sensor
Year four $120 O2 sensor $80 Oil change
Year five $0
Year six $190 Optima Battery $80 oil change $1050 new tires

This year I will need to do a brake fluid change, oil change, trans fluid change, anti-freeze change, figure out why the remotes both went unfunctional. No other known needs.

Depreciation from bought at ~$28k to current value at ~$15k = $13k.

Cost to own ~$13k depreciation plus ~$4,400 maintenance

Had I bought a 987 at the time I would have lost twice that depreciation amount and still had to spend ~$2k in replacements/maintenance (oil changes, tires) even assuming zero failures out of warranty. My insurance would have been higher all 6 years. Taxes would have been higher all 6. My investment accounts would be about the cost of a new Boxster lower.

So if it fails, I would be able to fund Jake's best motor with the money I've saved and begin another cycle of driving on a fresh improved engine in comparison to the 6 year old 987 I'd be driving had I bought new. And if it doesn't....I'm way way ahead I figure.

Not that everyone has to think that way. Or will have that luck.

I probably should explain the first tires cost, sold the set that came on the car, bought a take-off set of ribs on same wheels from a dealer for $50 more.

Only one major service in six years of ownership? I get annual physicals for my cars, regardless of miles. You also seem to have gotten one of the better cars. I've had cracked CV Joint Boots, bushings that had to be repacked/greased, window regulators go, headlamp washers leak, new battery, etc. That's one of the reasons I dumped my 2002 S for a 2009. I was not confident that it would remain out of the shop as squeeks and clunking were becoming more prevelant. Every time I'd bring it to the mechanic, my wife would get a ding in about the size of the credit card bill. So, out of site, out of mind. Also, no IMS. The dealer picked up a good chunk of my intial depreciation in the form of the the great price I got it for (purchased new in Nov. 2009). I could probably sell it for close to my original purchase price as the economy is now starting to pick up, well maybe once spring finally gets here.

So, to each his own, and to some extent, the luck of the draw. Early in my life, I kept my Toyota Camry for 8 years and only had to put a new battery in and one brake light, outside of the usual oil changes and annual check ups. I didn't put many miles on it, so didn't even have to get new tires. I could have easily gotten one that was more of a problem.

I did the 60k when I bought the car at 42k to establish a baseline. I'll do the 90k at slightly less than 60k this year. Other than a tired O2 sensor and the airbag light issue, I really have done nothing but maintain it. So yes I have been fortunate. But I also paid on the front end to get it into shape through a great mechanic who really knew what he was doing and after he did my PPI we addressed everything that could or should be done. Maybe that had something to do with it or maybe the Fins just built a great car that day. From the records I got the previous owners had had good luck too.

I agree with nearly 100% your thoughts. In a previous post a couple of weeks ago, I reported on my experience and decision to replace the IMS bearing on my '02S.......and, much, like you, I think it's a personal decision to spend $$$$ on an older car or bail out and buy something newer. But, there's also the altruistic reason for doing so......one might just happen to like and have some 'loyalty', so to speak, with something special that we bought a few years before. Much like a wife, perhaps. When I ordered my Boxster, I was estactic.....and am much the same every time I take her out today.....and it's my 4th Porsche. This one is special because I bought it new.....may not mean much to some, but I take a bit of solace in knowing that my farts have been the only ones to grace the supple black leather seats!! As Pedro says, 'Happy Boxtering!'

I think that may sum it up - one pays extra in order be the one to deflower a virgin Boxster!
mike

Funny you mention this number. I just spend $1,500 on my daily driver, a 2000 VW Passat. I was struggling in my mind with whether or not it was worth spending this much on a 175,000 mile car that's worth maybe $3,000 or $4,000. But I thought along the same lines as the original poster. The car is in good shape, it drives fine, and spending $1,500 a year is a lot cheaper than spending $400-$500 a month for a new car.

This $1,500 covered new inner and outer tie rods (worn), a four wheel alignment, balancing of all four wheels, and a new catalytic converter that failed. Last year I spent about $2,000 on the car, because the ABS computer went and it needed some front end and brake work. But I have to say, I've been driving this car since 2000, and there were MANY years I drove without spending any money on repairs, even long after the payments were done.

2002 Audi S6 avant with 70-something k miles

2007: $3517 (ouch, timing belt ++)
2008: $1134 (tires+)
2009: $0 (i dont count oil etc)
2010: $359 (plugs, muffler clamps, filters)

2011: will be, among other things, full brakes, but that's a project just because i feel like it. No doubt a big surprise too. Meh.


Grant