Re: I must have missed the memo that announced IMS bearing failures were due to ferrous metal...

I have a 2006 Boxster S and love the car. My plan is to keep it for another 5-6 years (yes, I did buy an extended warranty for peace of mind).

In researching the dreaded IMS failures and reading LNengineering's website, I learned that there is not much preventative that I can do.
I was considering buying the retrofit kit and having a shop install it. However I was told by LN Engineering that it isn't available for my car. They told
me that the only options I can do, in terms of preventative maintenance, are: frequent oil changes, better oil and a magnetic drain plug.

Link to Magnetic Drain Plug
Link to detailed description


I don't mind spending $25+/- if it makes sense for the magnetic drain plug but am not sure if knowing that I am about to suffer an IMS failure
is really going to change anything. I say that because my extended warranty company (like most) only covers total breakdown.

So, in your opinion, should I buy a magnetic drain plug?

Thanks in advance....

Anthony



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2011 07:53PM by atwnsw. (view changes)

If not then I wouldn't bother with a magnetic drain plug. It is a placebo.

A magnetic drain plug will do nothing to help your car. Let's put it this way: what do you think it can do that the oil filter doesn't already do?

If you're one of those people who buys any product the vendor claims helps you "just in case" then you should definitely get one.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

but on a Ferrari they would noticeably enhance the performance in comparison to the Echo's OE tires being fitted to that Ferrari. Any given component becomes more critical as a system's other components are qualitatively enhanced. Having one more place to remove abrasive particles from an engine seems like a good idea, diminished as the return on investment may be. I've had more than one "by the numbers" person as much as "astounded" by the difference in resolution, sound stage, etc, between junk RCA interconnects and, e.g., Audioquests. And it happened without first trying to "sell" them on the idea. It's not a matter of whatever "objective" or "subjective" means conceptually, but "observational."

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2011 10:05PM by Laz. (view changes)

even by your own statement (before "x" edit) provides diminishing return...if any. There is a big difference between vital essential component for maximum performance re: RCA plugs/wires and an ancillary non-essential component re:drain plug (equivalent zip tie for excess wiring in sound system). Nice try, but sell your snake oil else where Johnny Dangerous. Paranoia posts like these remind me why I don't frequent these/this forum often. And before you jump all over me, I have numerous times 'acknowledged' there are shortfalls in th M96/97 motors... but not nearly to the level those who peddle alleged "superior" aftermarket parts want you to believe only to fatten their checkbook.

Flame suit on so have at it "Johnny/Laz"

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Double-blind tests with cheapo Radio Shack wires compared to high-end cables (in the thousands of $) listened to by all manners of experts revealed no ability to distinguish.

It's a placebo. Really. Some "experts" disagree but when tested they failed.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

a mag drain plug have some value picking up metal pieces? Now, i ack if you have metal pieces in your oil, bad things are already happening.....

So, my Blackhawk has chip detectors in both engines and all five gearboxes. They are magnetized to attract the chips, and once a chip sticks to the detector, it completes an electrical circuit which turns on a light in the cockpit, and disables bowel control for both pilots.

I would pay good money for that peace of mind.

With the option to spend lots more money. Toilet paper is optional

at just the most opportune time that an oil/filter service will find early warning signs of the bearing failure at the magnetic drain plug.

In fact the timing would have to be a real piece of luck since the bearings/race are ferrous the bearing would have to be pretty sick and on the edge of catastrophic failure to be shedding metal bits that would be attracted by the magnetic drain plug and this just happened to coincide with an oil/filter service.

If it buys you some peace of mind $25 is not that much money. Personally I would not spend the $25.

I would do as I have done and as you are doing and that is change the oil/filter 'frequently' (I've followed a 5K mile oil service schedule) and use an approved oil of the proper type and viscosity for your area and then relax and enjoy the car. With the extended warranty if the engine does go boom from say an IMS bearing failure, in spite of your following a preventative maintenance schedule, you're covered.

My advice would be to learn what info the warranty company requires when it is faced with a claim and make sure you do what it takes to have this just in case. I know in talking to my tech contacts these 3rd party warranty providers are very quick to question a claim and being prepared will go a long way in seeing your claim (if it comes to that) is honored with minimal delay and back and forth.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

It's not just a matter of detecting a problem, but that the probability of a problem could be diminished. Also, the "flow" of the problem could be from somewhere else to the IMS bearing or some other susceptible part of the motor. For myself, I won't bother with a magnetic drain plug, unless Porsche decides to use them (which I believe they did on my 912.) If somebody thinks spending 25 bucks for a perceived increase in protection is worth it in a 50 thousand dollar plus car, what's the big deal? There's really not much of a diminished return factor anyway.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Quote
Laz
It's not just a matter of detecting a problem, but that the probability of a problem could be diminished. Also, the "flow" of the problem could be from somewhere else to the IMS bearing or some other susceptible part of the motor. For myself, I won't bother with a magnetic drain plug, unless Porsche decides to use them (which I believe they did on my 912.) If somebody thinks spending 25 bucks for a perceived increase in protection is worth it in a 50 thousand dollar plus car, what's the big deal? There's really not much of a diminished return factor anyway.

particles circulating through the engine and somehow failing to be captured by the filter.

If I were hyper concerned about IMS bearing failure (or any other kind of failure) I'd be more inclined to forego the magnetic drain plug and put that money towards more frequent filter changes which gives one a chance to see what the filter and filter housing oil has collected. One can pour this oil into a clean drain pan and run a magnet through it and collect any ferrous metal that may be in the oil.

Might add that I believe the early warning sign of pending IMS trouble is not the metal of the bearing in the oil but the separator and before this the seal, both of which are non-magnetic and in fact non-metal materials.

Furthermore, the problem with a magnetic drain plug is that one has to remove it to observe what it has captured and in doing so almost certainly all the oil in the sump will drain out. One then has to clean the drain plug, fit a new sealing ring, then get oil back in the engine.

There are so few areas that can shed ferrous metal and do so silently and with no other signs of distress that a magnetic drain plug is just the automotive equivalant of whistling walking past a graveyard.

But if $25 drain plug makes one feel better...

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Dead on--I think the oil filter is a better source for finding metal particles.

If the filter is doing it's job, why you would you expect to see many particles on this drain plug?
With the oil constantly circulating, wouldn't the filter be the most likely place to trap these particles rather than a small magnet in the bottom of the sump. I don't know how strong this magnet is in the drain plug, but would think these small shiny particles would more likely be carried along with the circulating oil rather than fall to the bottom of the sump and get caught in the plug's magnetic field.

Regarding the IMS shards, are these shiny/chromed flakes? Are there any other sources of similar looking materials inside the engine?

is ferrous. Only thing that sheds ferrous particles inside the engine. The magnetic drain plug does see enough of the particles for them to collect on the plug's magnets.

Only problem is you have to inspect the magnetic plug at the right time while the bearing has just begun to shed and before it has vibrated itself to death.

And who knows what the right time is. Is it 100 miles after the last oil change, or 200, or 300....???? Same problem with inspecting the oil filter.

Quote
Laz
n/t

yes as are the main bearings and crank among other things

aside from the vast majority that the "perfect" filter can.

journals and the camshaft bearings, lobes, and lifters, valve stems, springs, chains, and chain sprockets.

Have I left anything out?

But the failure rate of these items is quite low and catastrophic engine failures from any other above are to the best of my knowledge unheard of.

So the primary benefit of a magnetic drain plug is that it will catch and hold metal particles of a failing IMS bearing. But a failing IMS bearing only exists in this metal shedding state a very short time, relative to any reasonable oil/filter change schedule.

There is no real benefit (ignoring the possible psychological benefit) of the magnetic drain plug catching the smaller ferrous particles that make their way through the filter.

For instance, not only does the filter pass really small ferrous particles but also silicon (a component of dust that makes it through the air filter) and alum. oxide which lines all alum. parts exposed to air and which is shed over time due to the corrosiveness arising from the oil as it remains in servce..

Alum. oxide is an abrasive (so is silicon when combined with other things) and in a purer form is an industrial abrasive. It doesn't do much good to remove the too fine to be caught by the filter ferrous metal particles and yet let the more abrasive alum. oxide bits continue to circulate.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

and you'd want a warning if any of those were to start shedding pieces...though as you say they fortunately don't as often as the part under discussion.

And the IMS sheddings can exist in the pan where they are exposed to the magnet as well as in the filter.

To me it is easier to look at the plug than the oil filter media. The problem is still the inspection interval.

Neither inspection is a fix and neither inspection assures you'll catch the IMS failure in time to save the engine.

" ...or some other susceptible part of the motor. For myself, I won't bother with a magnetic drain plug..."

By the way, both of us feel better using N spec tires and in your case if I recall correctly, dealer servicing, which has its pluses and minuses. We can again go over the whys and wherefores, but our opinions alone don't necessarily enhance or detract from some ultimate, idealized validity.

My thought is that if I had an extended warranty, I wouldn't tinker at all with the engine. I can see the IMS failing after the LN fix was installed and the company voiding the warranty due to a non-Porsche part inside the engine. Now, they may not do so with the magnetic drain plug, but why modify the engine at all and risk voiding the warranty. Could the company void the warranty over a $25 plug, who knows, but more importatly why risk it over $25?

When I'm in a movie theater and the lights begin to dim, I wonder if that's what's happening, or if I'm going blind. Or... if I'm going blind at the same time the lights are going dim!

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

In order to legally void the warranty Porsche would have to demonstrate a connection between the aftermarket part and the failure. I don't think this would be possible with a magnetic drain plug.

to set conditions upon which a warranty can be denied and it can be denied for many reasons, as long as this is stated plainly in the warranty literature of the product.

The use of non-factory engine parts, even down to the drain plug, may be listed as voiding the warranty. However, I don't think this is the case. That is I would not forego the use of a magnetic drain plug for fear of voiding the warranty on the engine, though if the engine failed due to loss of oil and this was due to a failure of the drain plug to remain secure or intact...

However, barring that unlikely failure scenario, my reasons for not using a magnetic drain plug is that I believe it provides no real benefit, ignoring as I mentioned in another post some possible gain in peace of mind.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

what is the likelihood that a warranty company would even know about the magnetic drain plug if you don't volunteer the information. It is not likely a mechanic would take notice of it, much less report it, when he is dealing with blown engine.

Lawdevil
2013 Boxster S - Agate Grey,
2016 Macan Turbo - jet black
Cashiers, NC & Atlanta

And once out of warranty, why would you worry about voiding the no longer existent warranty with a LN IMS part? It isn't like Porsche is generous about extending the warranty....

comes in asking about a zillion questions about the incident to see if there's any reason (based on the fine print in the warranty contract) that the claim can be denied.

The tech will certainly note the non-factory drain plug. The ones I deal with over time note most everything out of the ordinary, from non-factory parts to factory parts that are installed incorrectly or damaged. (For instance when I had my Boxster in for CV boots the half-shaft flange bolts on the tranmission end of one half-shaft had their wrench holes almost stripped out that could only have arisen when I had the car in years ago for a RMS job and the half-shafts were unbolted from the transmission so the tranny could be removed to get at the RMS. Another example is an actuator bolt was found in a similar condition which can only have occured at the factory during engine assembly.)

Whether the tech brings the presence of the drain plug to the attention of the adjuster depends. If he finds the drain plug loose and the engine ran out of oil oh yeah. He'll bring this to the attention of the adjuster. If the drain plug has played no role in the engine's condition he probably won't. But he may not have to. The adjuster would probably spot it as he combs through the parts on the bench. Or the adjuster may as part of his claims work simply ask the tech to list all non-factory/non-standard parts/systems on the engine.

But whether the presence of the non-factory drain plug is sufficent to deny the claim, I can't say. It really depends upon how the fine print reads.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

a car's CPO or 3rd party warranty.

I'm simply arguing that I don't think the magnetic drain plug has any real value beyond the possible peace of mind benefit that might arise. This certainly can't be dismissed out of hand, of course.

It all boils down to the owner doing what he feels is best. There are worse things one can do than fit a magnetic drain plug to his Boxster engine's oil sump.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Portions of a contract that violate the law are not enforceable.

the law, allowed by the act, that the warranty issuer can put in conditions that give it some protection against improper servicing, improper use, and the use of non-factory parts and so on. As long as these restrictions/conditions are clearly spelled out and done so prominently in the warranty these do not violate the law.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

whether it is in the contract or not. The law says that they cannot.

Wow, 40+ posts for adding a magnetic drain plug to a 5 year old car! I had less responses on another board to open heart surgery.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2011 11:23PM by dghii. (view changes)

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

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"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

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[www.mlmlaw.com]

Here's an applicable section:

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.

While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.

Furthermore:

Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

which is that the warranty company has to demonstrate cause and effect to void a warranty due to aftermarket parts/service.

According to the Clymer "Porsche 912 Handbook and Service Manual," these cars have a magnetic filter that the oil suction tube passes through. Surrounding this is a strainer.