The problem may be _that_ you put in a new washer ("crush ring"

I changed the oil in my 2001 2.7L Boxster last week and noticed about 1/4 quart on the garage floor a couple of days later. Before I changed the oil and filter everything was fine, no leak. Why all of a sudden after I changed the oil and filter I have a leak? It doesn't seem to leaking as much as before. I took a pic of where I think the leak is coming from based on the leaked oil on the garage floor. I tightened a couple of the nuts where perhaps there's some seepage and I also tightened the oil drain nut. That bit you see sticking out from the drain nut is because I tightened it so much the bit wouldn't detach. I didn't want to try to detach it by turning it the other way. I don't think it will do any harm leaving it there. Any way I would like to hear any ideas what I can do about the leak. Hopefully after tightening the nuts the leak will go away. It's just strange to have the leak happen after an oil change. Weird coincidence, I guess. I didn't overfill. I added about 9.25 quarts which I believe is correct for a 2001 2.7L with changing the filter. TIA.



[i55.tinypic.com]

you forgot the crush ring or reused the old one?

Also, overtightening the drain plug could cause problems. I believe the drain plug is a softer metal than the oil pan, so overtightening could strip the drain plug threads.

... you didn't put in a new crush ring?
The reason why the bit can't be re,moved is either it's not the correct size or the plug's hex had been damaged from using the wrong size bit before.
I suggest you replace the old plug with a new one, making sure you have a new aluminum crush ring and use the correct size bit.
The correct size bit is 8mm , not 5/16" which many people think will work.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

It's possible I didn't put in a new crush ring but I'm 90% sure that I did. If you notice the leak pattern it looks like it may be coming from the two nuts at the bottom of the picture. I did tighten them both last night.

Quote
boxsterd
It's possible I didn't put in a new crush ring but I'm 90% sure that I did. If you notice the leak pattern it looks like it may be coming from the two nuts at the bottom of the picture. I did tighten them both last night.

... Migrate like that and can make it seem as though it's coming from the bolts.
The whole oil pan has a sealant so it's highly unlikely that it's from there.
My money is still on the crush ring.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Quote
boxsterd
It's possible I didn't put in a new crush ring but I'm 90% sure that I did. If you notice the leak pattern it looks like it may be coming from the two nuts at the bottom of the picture. I did tighten them both last night.

When I enlarge your pictures it look more like the oil is coming from around the plug, indicating the crush ring as the source. Of course it is really hard to tell without cleaning the excess off and then seeing where you are getting more seepage.

and the old one remains. Sometimes they stay in even after the drain plug is removed.

FWIW, I reused the same washer for about 20 oil changes and never had a leak. I don't think it really is a crush ring as crush rings are usually rounded so that they actually change shape when you tighten the bolt. The factory Porsche one looks just like an aluminum washer and the one I used for 100k miles looks like the same size and shape as the new one I replaced it with.

Yeah I always thought the crush ring was to prevent overtightening the drain nut, not act as a seal preventing leaks. Any ways I tightened the two nuts at the bottom of the picture yesterday and the drain nut and so far no more leaking. So we'll see. BTW the bit that got stuck in the drain nut fell out somewhere on the road. Hopefully I can pick one up at the hardware store without having to by a new set. Does anyone know the size of the bit?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2011 12:21PM by boxsterd. (view changes)

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

but it never leaks. Note i also don't over-tighten. I get it to about 30 lb-ft

plug interface.

You can elect to reuse the same sealing ring over and over again but I think advising someone else to do so which is contrary to what Porsche says about this ring is wrong.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

There is no technical reason to replace it unless it is damaged and that is extremely rare.

that the very act of tightening the drain plug and thus pinching the crush ring between the plug and the block doesn't slightly compress the crush ring and thus make it less effective in being crushed when you try to use it a second time? Even though we see no deformation, is it effective the second as it was the first time? By effective I'd guess that both sealing and distributing the torque would be elements of what the crush ring does. Sealing can certainly be proven by anecdote but what about torque distribution?

And after all..it costs how much?

the "crush washer" might behave like a gasket, conforming to minute irregularities; not just being "protective." The used washer then has its own irregularities that may not reconform the next time it's used. Some scoring of the washer surfaces likely occurs, however visible or not. Either these scores or other irregularities might become pathways for oil to pass through.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2011 10:25AM by Laz. (view changes)

You can crush it as many times as you want and it will continue conform to whatever irregularities it needs to.

Speaking of magic, are you ascribing anthropomorphic qualities to a piece of metal?

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

if say one removes the plug and then discovers he forgot to pick a new ring up. I must point out when I buy my filter the parts counter guy shoves over the filter box and tapes a new sealing ring to the box.

Anyhow, in a pinch the sealing ring can be reused that is if the sealing ring is undamaged/unmarred. Maybe I expect too much from those who work on their own cars and especially Porsches but I believe that anyone who takes it upon himself to do an oil/filter service on Boxster if he's not up on things enough to be sure and get a new sealing ring along with the filter maybe he's better *off* not doing the job himself.

Just saying.

The problem I have with blanket stating the sealing ring can be reused is that while you or I would carefully inspect the ring and be very thorough and make sure the drain plug face where the sealing ring contacts the drain plug is clean and so is the sump where the sealing ring contacts others might not be so careful, so professional.

BTW, the sealing ring is not alumimum. IIRC it is an alloy of silicon/bronze and is quite hard made to *not* compress or defrom when the plug is tightened down.

Being the sealing ring is hard if there's any piece of hard material that is in the oil that drains from the sump that gets between the ring and its sealing surface this can cause the ring to fracture when the drain plug is tightened.

Now if the above happens it will probably not leak any noticable amount right away. But It will probably seep after a while. But the real risk is that in this operation the torque reading obtained from tightening down the drain plug is wrong and the plug is not properly tight. The plug could loosen and we know that even with the plug loose the oil does not drain that fast from between the plug and the sump drain hole. Even if the plug is hanging by its last thread the oil does not flow all that fast, readily.

After a while though the plug could come loose enough to fall out and well one has an dead engine in his car because by the time the oil level/pressure warning light comes on and the driver can shut off the engine, the damage has been done.

The factory oil change procedure calls for this sealing ring to be replaced every time the oil is changed. I just had the oil change done for the Boxster. The cost was $184.45. I supplied the 8+ quarts of oil, which I paid $7.90/quart so the total cost of the oil service cost $247.65.

Of this total cost the ring represents $1.65.

A buck sixty five.

To put that into prospective a bit while I was at the dealer today I priced replacement engines: For my 02 Boxster a new 2.7l engine with no exchange: $27,777. With exchange the cost is $16,623. This does not include labor to remove the old engine and install the new engine.

$1.65 saved to risk $16K seems well, it is not a risk I would chance.

Oh, I mentioned that someone claimed to have done 20 oil changes and has used the same ring each time and one tech just looked at me and the other asked "and its not leaking yet?"

A buck sixty five.

Times 20.

$33 saved.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

The factory procedure also calls for replacing the caliper bolts every time you remove them (e.g,. to change the rotors) and that is a safety-related area of the car.

I am saying that there is no technical reason to back up the oft-parroted statement that the washer should be replaced. There is an equal likelihood of something getting lodged in between the washer and the bolt or the oil pan if the washer is replaced or not.

So, I still haven't heard anyone give a plausible technical explanation as to why the washer needs to be replaced. And I haven't ever heard of a single account of it leaking (or having any other problem) because someone reused the washer. So it seems sound both in theory and in practice to not be concerned about it.

Porsche techs will always replace it because they are supposed to follow Porsche's procedure without question. But we aren't.

(you just hit a hot button, forgive my rant)

for reasons i wont bore you with, i had them on and off my Audi 6 times last night. I assume you i did not buy, at $4.00 each, 6 x 2 wheels x 2 bolts /wheel = 24 bolts last night. I am still alive, although, from the repair manuals warnings, one might find that odd.

I do believe that the washer is softer than the other metals and compresses to fit. I do believe that ideally i would replace it. And when i remember to get one, i do (30 cents). But to worry and debate it? Mine don't leak. QED. Get real!

Grant

So it's "W.Z.B.W." (was zu beweisen war,) not QED.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Totally agree. It is clear from experience that caliper bolts can be re-used. Sure, it's probably not a bad idea to replace them after a few rotor changes. But it seems like wasteful overkill to say those bolts can only be tightened one time. Same issue for the brake pad "retaining pin kit" which is also supposed to be replaced every time -- even more ridiculous. Of course, I can certainly appreciate the satisfaction in finishing a bit of maintenance with all brand new hardware.

As for the crush ring, it is clear to my eye that it does "crush" or deform slightly when the drain plug is tightened. The the plug head makes a slightly indented circular outline in the washer. I normally put a new one on, and new one often comes with the filter and o-ring depending on where/how you buy them or if you remember to mention it. HOWEVER, a couple of times I've found myself without a new one on hand, and it is also clear from experience that re-using the crush ring does not generally cause any problem whatsoever. I could imagine that if you re-used the same one several times a slow oil drip might occur. My advice is: 1) buy a new crush ring when you buy the filter, and use it when you change the oil. 2) if you are doing an oil change and realize you lack a new crush ring, just re-use the old one and do not worry about it! (and remind yourself to not forget the next time)

Well I checked this morning and unfortunately I still have the oil leak, although it seems to be less severe. It looks like just a couple of tablespoons over 1-2 days. I think I have these choices:

1) Take out the drain plug and this time be absolutely sure to replace the crush ring and replace any oil lost in the process (I'm guessing at least a few quarts) after putting the plug back in.

2) Tighten the drain plug some more. This time use the correct tool 8mm hex bit instead of torx bit.

3) Ignore it and just drive another 5,000 miles topping off oil as necessary and replace oil and be sure to replace crush ring.


Any other suggestions?

... just collect it in a clean bucket.
Replace the plug with a new one and a new aluminum washer (the old one is damaged already when the wrong bit was used).
Put the oil back.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Must not have a torque wrench as the way Porsche would say to approach this would be to check for the correct tightness that way.

Though in all honesty the way I'd do it is not approved by Porsche, I'd loosen it a turn or two and then snug it up by hand. I've been doing these oil pan plugs for 50 years plus and my feel has gotten good enough to get close enough to the right snugness or to feel if the plug has cross-threaded..

I looked around today and sure enough I found the unused crush ring. I didn't change it after all. There you go. Pay that 25 cents (or whatever it costs) and change it with every oil change.

It is caused by one or more of 3 things:
1) Not tightening the drain plug to spec
2) Not using a washer (perhaps the old one fell out)
3) Cross-threading the drain plug (unlikely, but possible)

On point #3, it's a good thing you didn't use one of the magnetic drain plugs because if you did, cross-threading would much more likely necessitate permanent damage to the oil pan.

[www.lnengineering.com]

I'd rather the pan have a relatively soft bolt, too.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

The material on the drain plug is chosen to be "sacrificial". You want the cheapest and easiest to replace part to be the one that goes if there is a problem.

There is no problem with the stock material. Changing it is asking for trouble.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

I've really missed these pi$$ing contests.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2011 04:01PM by Post Falls Rob. (view changes)

Assuming none of those involved are women, of course.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2011 04:39PM by Laz. (view changes)