Re: PDK question

According to the instruction manual of my 2009 987S with PDK, the gearbox should up-shift when, in manual mode, hitting the rev limiter.
Mine didn’t, as I found out the hard way, when I was overtaking on a two-lane road in France (N75). I was unpleasantly surprised by a sudden interruption of power, caused by hitting the rev limiter while driving in manual mode (as I always do).

Back at home I checked this behaviour again, it reproduced, and I also tested the auto mode. In that mode, when floored, the car brought me quickly, without interruption, to speeds which are not allowed in Holland :-).

It is not a big issue to me, as long as I’m aware of it. Therefore I would like to know if other PDK manual drivers out there have the same experience.

For me the lesson is: when I want to overtake in a sneaky situation, I will flip the box to auto, floor it, and only concentrate on the oncoming cars.

Regards,
Joris Creyghton

I am trying to avoid finding out whether that feature works or not. I normally shift at 3k and never above 4.5k.

I would be interested in knowing what your local Porsche Service Manager says about the problem.

Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.

I understand that you don't want to test your car's behaviour on the redline. I usually shift at about 4k but I don't think it will harm a well broken-in car with an engine fully at operating temperature to go to the redine occasionally.

I will see the service manager in September when I will bring in the car for its 60k (km) service, but I won't urge him to try to fix anything (the car is out of warranty (only 2 years in Europe)) since I don't consider it a serious problem as long as you are aware of it.

Quote
KevinR-MedinaOhio
I normally shift at 3k and never above 4.5k.

never? seriously? sorry if this sounds offensive but why did you buy a porsche? these motors don't even come alive until 4k rpm and it's much harder on an engine to lug it than to rev it. i'm not saying that you have to wind it out to redline on every shift but "never" is a bit extreme. IMNSHO you haven't lived until you drive a boxster through the twisties between 5 to 7k rpm.

--
MY 2000 S, Ocean Blue, Metropol Blue, Savanah Beige.
Bought June 2000 - Sold May 2010

Quote
frogster

never? seriously? sorry if this sounds offensive but why did you buy a porsche? these motors don't even come alive until 4k rpm and it's much harder on an engine to lug it than to rev it. i'm not saying that you have to wind it out to redline on every shift but "never" is a bit extreme. IMNSHO you haven't lived until you drive a boxster through the twisties between 5 to 7k rpm.

Never in the 2.5 months I have owned it. The car has PLENTY of torque at 3k and doesn't lug until it goes WELL below 2k. I had no problem keeping up w/ others a couple weeks ago at the BRBS.

And I bought the car to drive, not to waste gas unnecessarily or showboat by driving at high RPMs.

Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.

I think what we have here is a bit of a "religious issue", i.e., just personal preference. Personally, I got all the high-revving driving pretty much out of my system during the three years I owned my '03S 5-speed, and with the '09S (KevinR's' twin), I'm almost always in auto mode and let it shift in its miserly way because I like being energy efficient and there really is enough torque at those ungodly low RPM's.

That said, however, there are those times every now and then (perhaps only once per every two or three outings) when the need to put my foot down hard arises, and those instances most certainly result in shift points at the upper end of the scale. So under "normal" conditions the revs stay low...but I'd wager that even KevinR puts his foot down once in a while and those revs do make it over 4.5K....am I right, Kevin?

Quote
Leor ('09S, North of Boston)
That said, however, there are those times every now and then (perhaps only once per every two or three outings) when the need to put my foot down hard arises, and those instances most certainly result in shift points at the upper end of the scale. So under "normal" conditions the revs stay low...but I'd wager that even KevinR puts his foot down once in a while and those revs do make it over 4.5K....am I right, Kevin?

Remember, I have owned it for <3-months.

I tend to drive aggressively in the corners, but am also cheap, so I like to have a tank of gas last as long as possible, and that means keeping the RPMs down. If the RPMs go >4.5k, it is by accident. I have yet to find an occasion where the engine needs to go above that. This includes accelerating up an on-ramp at 88mph, passing a line of slow-moving traffic (went up to 82mph), and driving away from some idiot in a pickup who wanted blind me w/ his brights in my rear-view mirror (only had to go 72mph to leave him behind). The car is an order of magnitude above almost everything else out there in terms of speed, acceleration, and handling. I sincerely doubt that "the pedal will ever (have to) each the metal" for it to out-perform everything else on the road.

Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.

The revs only get up there when the PDK senses the need...the need for speed... so here are the typical situaitons where I often take it to the limiter:

1. Entering a highway and seeing myself on an interception course with oncoming traffic. Often a rapid speed-up is going to be the least disruptive option. And the more space I put between us, the less their potential concern. So I hit it.

2. I spot some idjut to my right-rear eyeballing that small slot directly in front of me in the fast lane, and bearing down as if to sneak in. I don't think there's anything on the highway that annoys me more, and I will always (unless it is too late and it would be downright dangerous) try to close that slot so the idjut can't cut in front of me to grab it. Usually that does not entail serious revs, but if the shoe fits...

3. Sometimes I just need to send a message. If I've been on some poke's tail in the fast lane for several minutes and they've squandered countelss opportunities to move over, then when I finally get around them I want to convey in no uncertain terms that I did not appreciate the hold-up. If my very rapid accelleration away from them does not properly telegraph "I just want to get the heck away from you as fast as I physically can", then I'll settle for them interpreting it any way they want

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

...but only if there was nowhere for him to go would I not have gotten out of his way. In the interests of full disclosure, I have been known to fail to notice someone behind me and get out of the way in a timely manner, but I do realize my error when they pull out to go around me and in those cases I will do everything in my power to facilitate their easy passing. The idjuts I was talking about are the ones I see coming from a mile away with their eye on threading the needle to cut me off before the eye closes. Grrrrrrr....

And then we slow down to recreate the gap, which impedes the flow of traffic in the so-called fast lane. No good deed goes unpunished.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

But then why are you in the fast lane for miles while he closes the gap? Given the closing speed difference between you and him, if you saw him a mile back how long would you have been in the passing lane for the time he needs to close? Why didn't you just pull into the slow lane and give him a bigger gap since you sensed he was in an unreasonable hurry.

I've seen such behavior turn into road rage incidents.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

"A mile back" was a bit of an exaggeration. There are traffic patterns where pulling over just doesn't make sense / seem necessary... I'll do it when feasible (if for no other reason than I'd rather have the hot-dogger in front of me where I can keep an eye on him as he pulls away rathern than having him ride my tailpipe), but sometimes I'll wait until getting out of the congestion before moving over.

There's no all-purpose algorithm for responsible/curteous driving. Sometimes I have an opportunity to send someone a message that says "I don't appreciate your driving habits" that's in the form of denying them the freedom to execute the rude maneuver they were aiming for. No one's pulled a gun on me yet for it (at least in this alternate universe), and maybe after getting enough messages, the driver will figure out the real reason they're being sent.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Quote
Leor ('09S, North of Boston)
There's no all-purpose algorithm for responsible/curteous driving.

Actually, responsible/curteous driving can be quite simple. A faster car comes up behind you, you move into the right lane at the first opportunity. It seems to work quite effectively on the Autobahn. Someone travelling at 120 mph could think, "hey I'm going fast enough" That's not the point. The guy driving at 130 mph is faster, so you move over and let him pass.

You can't "teach" other people lessons on the road. Get someone who doesn't want to be "taught" and you end up with road rage with two people trying to "teach" each other.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

The original discussion about RPM's has clearly morphed into something...else. The point I've been trying to make, apparently not very well, is there may be multiple extenuating factors, esp. in congested traffic, that would cause me to make the value judgment of not getting out of someone's way as soon as I become aware of them behind me. I don't think there's really any need for me to enumerate them. Normally, any time on the road, I try to stay in Rodney King mode ("Can't we all just get along?" )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 04:18PM by Leor ('09S, North of Boston). (view changes)

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

I don't have pdk, but if Porsche has set it up to behave in a "true" manual mode, then it shouldn't shift at the rev limiter (redline). It might make sense for it to do that, but then I guess that is what the "automatic" mode is for.

Don't listen to the the guy behind the curtain. These things start getting fun and sounding great at 4K+ rpms and higher. And, they are meant to be driven that way. In traffic and easy cruising, I may shift as low at 3K, but in any kind of spirited driving my shifts are easily above 4.5K and I take it to just below redline on occasion just for giggles. I have not done DE in years, but there the idea was to keep the rpms at 4K and above at all times as 4K is where the engine begins its power band.

1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson

I agree with you that in a "true" manual mode the car shouldn't do anything other then the driver wants it to do, but the owner's manual tells otherwise, hence my question.

On the other hand, it does make sense that the car protects you from unwanted damage by refusing to down-shift when the redline would be surpassed by such action, or by up-shifting when at redline with a floored gas foot, to keep the car accelerating in a possibly emergency situation.

For sure, if the manual explains that in full manual mode a pdk tranny should up shift at redline, then I suspect yours is not working properly. And, I agree with you about how the software should work: 1) it should upshift for you so that you are not left w/o power in an emergency (like you can be in a manual); 2) I don't know how it is programmed, but pdk should NOT let you downshift to a gear that would engage the engine above redline. And, I'd bet that is how it is set up. When my 1999 engine blew up, they checked the computer for just that situation. To see if I had accidentally downshifted and forced it to go to engine destroying rpms. I had not, so I got a free engine, but it only makes sense that in pdk manual mode there is a safety that doesn't let some one make too many down shift clicks on the paddles sending the engine to dangerous rpms.

The pdk refuses to downshift to a gear which will cause the engine to surpass the redline. I didn't test that feature but I rely on it until I find out otherwise.

Yes, I agree with you that you want to be absolutely sure about plenty of room when passing on a two-lane road. Nevertheless, although this road (N75 in France), which I know very well since I drive it every summer, has a speed limit of 90 kph, it often happens that an oncoming car surpasses this limit considerably, say for instance with 30kph. In passing also add some speed to be as short as possible on the lane of oncoming traffic so now we are approaching each other with about 240 kph, and so, what seemed a safe distance now shrinks in an eye-wink....
Yet there wasn't a real emergency, the oncoming car even didn't flash his headlights, but yet I was unpleasantly surprised by the unexpected power cut.

I am already in my 70's but still going fast

According to the instruction manual (at least for MY 2010), your PDK is working correctly.

The owners manual states:
There is no automatic upshift at the upper engine
speed limit in selector lever position M.

It goes on to say:
Upshift suppression can be cancelled by kickdown operation.
If, for example, the engine speed limit is
reached during overtaking and the automatic
upshift does not occur, the transmission in this
case shifts up as a result of kickdown operation.

Which to me, means, if in M mode, you floored the gas pedal and the transmission downshifted (kick down), it will then upshift again when it reaches maximum engine speed.

Not sure why they would have it downshift when in M mode, since it sounds like an automatic to me, but apparently that's what it's designed to do.

The text in my Dutch MY2009 manual is a true translation of your English MY 2010 text. That manual is available on Porsche.com and after the part that you quoted there is also the paragraph:

In order to shift up automatically at the upper engine speed limit:
> Depress the accelerator pedal beyond the full throttle point (kickdown).

I don’t know whether a real kickdown has to be occurred to obtain this automatic upshift, or that it is sufficient to have the switch at the end of the gas pedal travel activated.

I know that the switch is working properly because the kickdown feature is operative.

When testing the feature recently, I was in second gear at about 30 kph, then floored it beyond the full throttle point (thus activating the switch, but not getting a real kickdown because there is no gain in going back to first gear at that speed) but didn’t get the promised automatic upshift.

Again it is not a real concern to me, I was just curious to learn if others have the same experience.
Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to post from your manual and think about my question.

I think that there may have been something lost in the translation from German to English that makes the instructions seem a little vague.

My take is that for kickdown to occur, it requires a downshift, so if you're in 3rd, floor it and PDK downshifts to 2nd then around redline, it will upshift back to 3rd again.

Of couse, since you're driving in manual mode, why not just flick the steering wheel button to upshift. Isn't that why you drive in manual mode? Just curious.

Good point. I will try to find a German version of the manual and see if that clears the confusion.

Your reasoning about the need of a real downshift to be necessary to get an upshift again at the redline sounds plausible to me.

I always upshift by flicking the steering wheel button, but very rarely, when I really need the maximum acceleration, one must go close to the redline to get maximum power and so one has to keep an eye on the tacho instead of on the road (my multitasking capabilities aren't any more what they have been... ), which is risky in an overtaking action.

I agree about not wanting to have to "think" about things when driving in situations that may require quick responses - like passing. (Of course, one way to pass w/o worrying is to MAKE SURE there is plenty of room, and that's always good advice anyway.) Having driven manuals all my life, and now well into my 60's, one thing that I was uncomfortable about with pdk when I had a loaner for a long weekend, was using the shifter w/o having to think about it. Shifting a manual is automatic for me, but even though it seems easier to do, shifting a pdk in manual mode did not come at all naturally. Bottom line for me is, if I had pdk, I would keep in the manual mode. The car I had had 3 setting, something like economy, sport, and track (not those words, but those intentions). I found that the sport mode did a very good job of thinking for me. In a situation like passing, with the pedal pressed, it "knows" to get it on and bring the car to higher rpms and then to shift.

Yes, I agree with you that you want to be absolutely sure about plenty of room when passing on a two-lane road. Nevertheless, although this road (N75 in France), which I know very well since I drive it every summer, has a speed limit of 90 kph, it often happens that an oncoming car surpasses this limit considerably, say for instance with 30kph. In passing also add some speed to be as short as possible on the lane of oncoming traffic so now we are approaching each other with about 240 kph, and so, what seemed a safe distance now shrinks in an eye-wink....
Yet there wasn't a real emergency, the oncoming car even didn't flash his headlights, but yet I was unpleasantly surprised by the unexpected power cut.

I am already in my 70's but still going fast

About 10 years ago my wife and rented a car in Milan and drove it south for about 10 days. Ended up in Rome and flew home. We were in something equivalent to say a Honda Civic. About 30 minutes out of the city on a 4 lane divided highway and without knowing or thinking, I was in the fast lane. I am pretty much always a tuned to my rear mirrors, but what came up on my ass happened soooo fast it was scary. I was doing about 80 mph (whatever that is in kilometers) and the car behind me was doing AT LEAST 140. Lesson learned. For the next 10 days I stayed in lane!

fwiw, along these lines, we were in Germany about 4 years ago riding in our German friends' car. He drove at about 160 kph (I looked at the speedo) and was passed regularly by folks doing about 180 - 200 kph or so. At one point 2 Porches flew by us. I could ID both: a GT3 and a CS4. No joke, by my estimate they were doing 150 MPH and maybe more. The GT3 was behind the CS4 by what seemed to be about 6 feet! To me it was scary.

Quote
Bobtesa
About 10 years ago my wife and rented a car in Milan and drove it south for about 10 days. Ended up in Rome and flew home. We were in something equivalent to say a Honda Civic. About 30 minutes out of the city on a 4 lane divided highway and without knowing or thinking, I was in the fast lane. I am pretty much always a tuned to my rear mirrors, but what came up on my ass happened soooo fast it was scary. I was doing about 80 mph (whatever that is in kilometers) and the car behind me was doing AT LEAST 140. Lesson learned. For the next 10 days I stayed in lane!

fwiw, along these lines, we were in Germany about 4 years ago riding in our German friends' car. He drove at about 160 kph (I looked at the speedo) and was passed regularly by folks doing about 180 - 200 kph or so. At one point 2 Porches flew by us. I could ID both: a GT3 and a CS4. No joke, by my estimate they were doing 150 MPH and maybe more. The GT3 was behind the CS4 by what seemed to be about 6 feet! To me it was scary.

FWIW, you are talking about two totally different driving worlds. I haven't driven in Italy, bur from what several friends (who have), tell me, Italian drivers make up their own rules as they go which sounds really scary.

German drivers (according to my experience driving there 12 years ago) really follow the rules of the road. I felt safer driving at 250 kph (150 mph) on the Autobahn than I do driving at 70 mph here in NA. Even my wife commented on that the day we drove a 996 on the Autobahn. (My post from earlier this year [pedrosboard.com] It isn't the speed that causes accidents. It's the idiots who weave in and out, don't check their mirrors, hog the left lane and in general don't have a clue of what's going on around them as they drive in their own, me first, little world.

Guenter, yes, from what I learned from our German friends rules of the road are both known and obeyed in Germany. It is like a duty to move over for faster moving cars. They also told me that in Germany Beemer drivers are considered pricks and Porsche drivers are considered courteous! Which in Germany vs. the U.S. turns this joke on its head: What's the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine? A porcupines have pricks on the outside. Come on, certainly you guys have heard that one.

A lawyer opens the door of his new BMW, when suddenly a car comes along and hits the door, ripping it off completely. When the police arrive at the scene, the lawyer complains bitterly about the damage to his precious BMW.

"Officer, look what they've done to my Beeeemer!!!", he whines.

"You lawyers are so materialistic, you make me sick!!!" says the officer, "You're so worried about your stupid BMW, that you didn't even notice that your left arm is ripped off!!!"

"Oh my gaaad....", replies the lawyer, finally noticing the bloody left shoulder where his arm once was, "Where's my Rolex???!!!!!"

*****************************

On the way up to BRBS this year, our friend Daniel (dak911) was worried about rain believe it or not, and misguidedly planned for a tour of the BMW plant near Greer, South Carolina. Walking gingerly after the tour, he reported that the initials stood for "Bubba Makes Wheels"!

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Some friends of our visited and drove in Italy last year. On some stretches of 2 lane road, the Italians made their own 3rd lane. TOTALLY scary.