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| Have to remove rear bumper to change air filter..... Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S) - Monday, 10 June, 2013, at 11:29:28 am |
 Gary in SoFL - Monday, 10 June, 2013, at 12:12:19 pm |
| Re: What a worthless POS Guenter in Ontario - Monday, 10 June, 2013, at 12:56:54 pm |
Quote
Gary in SoFL
Looks like a simple air filter change will cost a bit more than a hundred bucks
Isn't it the same for the 981?
Nope. 981 air filters can be accessed from the trunk. No need to disassemble the whole car.
Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]
| For efficient packaging of the car's parts sometimes things get buried... MarcW - Monday, 10 June, 2013, at 8:55:36 pm |
Like the air filter. But IIRC the thing is huge. So, long life, and even better, better air flow. And a fancy pants air box to get the sound into the cabin.
I'd gladly trade my Boxster's puny (in comparison) air filter for the bigger one if all it required was me to remove the rear bumper. Takes a tech just moments to do even for an older car.
Did I see (and hear) the 1st wheel drop onto the rotor? I note the tech didn't use the wheel lug rods.
Also, the bumper was laid on the floor. It should have been put on a bumper stand: A fancy sawhorse with plenty of padding/height to hold the bumper cover up safe and sound.
I had to watch the thing to the very end to catch that bit about the shut of the cooling system part but the description was cut off.
I'd gladly trade my Boxster's puny (in comparison) air filter for the bigger one if all it required was me to remove the rear bumper. Takes a tech just moments to do even for an older car.
Did I see (and hear) the 1st wheel drop onto the rotor? I note the tech didn't use the wheel lug rods.
Also, the bumper was laid on the floor. It should have been put on a bumper stand: A fancy sawhorse with plenty of padding/height to hold the bumper cover up safe and sound.
I had to watch the thing to the very end to catch that bit about the shut of the cooling system part but the description was cut off.
| That tiny air filter.... grant - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 8:17:36 am |
...may have more resistance (lower flow) than i'd like, but, OTOH, every time i go to check and replace it, its perfectly clean.
Eventually i juts swapped it because i had one on hand.
I think you are too easy on manufacturers who design hard to maintain automobiles. Yes, there are excuses - and trade offs that must be made. But they often make trade offs i don't support. And many, like the magically growing assembly of bolt heads and proprietary diagnostic odes and protocols, are intended specifically to foil independent mechanics.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Eventually i juts swapped it because i had one on hand.
I think you are too easy on manufacturers who design hard to maintain automobiles. Yes, there are excuses - and trade offs that must be made. But they often make trade offs i don't support. And many, like the magically growing assembly of bolt heads and proprietary diagnostic odes and protocols, are intended specifically to foil independent mechanics.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| For the air filter, every time I get at the one in my car it's filthy... MarcW - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 12:37:28 pm |
It is not clear Porsche is on purpose attempting to foil independent mechanics but if that arises from what Porsche does I do not think it would loose much sleep over it.
A lot of car makers use proprietary error codes and a goodly number do not share the info or make it very hard (and sometimes expensive) to obtain.
For some time car makers have sought to differentiate their products by other means other than the more traditional things and have moved into electronics. This includes engine/drive train controllers and how they deal with manage the more complex hardware they now control. Remember a manual transmission required no controller. A PDK requires a powerful controller which is responsible for controlling a very critical, vital in fact, and expensive piece of equipment, for essentially the life of the car.
As someone who works on products that require embedded software (which is essentially what the software is in our engine controllers and other controllers in a vehicle) I can tell you things get real complex real quick if one does anything that amounts to anything worthwhile, real complex real quick without having go out of his way to make things real complex.
Communication between analog sensors and digital controllers, communication between various digital controllers are complex to begin with.
It is one thing to document this so other engineers can understand and use the information. It is another thing entirely to document it so the layman can understand it and use it.
Might point out that it is becoming the exception when one can read an error code and replace the part based on just one error code, with no additional diagnostics. Often there are 2 or more, sometimes 6 or more steps, tests that need be done to pinpoint which of the possible causes is causing the problem. More and more it is not just a dirty MAF that is at the root of engine problems.
Once the inner workings are exposed and once there is any aftermarket products based on this communication then the market expects it to remain the same forever. This gets in the way of making things better when legacy communication and other behavior have to be maintained from year to year, from product to product.
A lot of car makers use proprietary error codes and a goodly number do not share the info or make it very hard (and sometimes expensive) to obtain.
For some time car makers have sought to differentiate their products by other means other than the more traditional things and have moved into electronics. This includes engine/drive train controllers and how they deal with manage the more complex hardware they now control. Remember a manual transmission required no controller. A PDK requires a powerful controller which is responsible for controlling a very critical, vital in fact, and expensive piece of equipment, for essentially the life of the car.
As someone who works on products that require embedded software (which is essentially what the software is in our engine controllers and other controllers in a vehicle) I can tell you things get real complex real quick if one does anything that amounts to anything worthwhile, real complex real quick without having go out of his way to make things real complex.
Communication between analog sensors and digital controllers, communication between various digital controllers are complex to begin with.
It is one thing to document this so other engineers can understand and use the information. It is another thing entirely to document it so the layman can understand it and use it.
Might point out that it is becoming the exception when one can read an error code and replace the part based on just one error code, with no additional diagnostics. Often there are 2 or more, sometimes 6 or more steps, tests that need be done to pinpoint which of the possible causes is causing the problem. More and more it is not just a dirty MAF that is at the root of engine problems.
Once the inner workings are exposed and once there is any aftermarket products based on this communication then the market expects it to remain the same forever. This gets in the way of making things better when legacy communication and other behavior have to be maintained from year to year, from product to product.
| All true. But i'm asking for far less. grant - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 9:56:57 am |
Like simple documentation of codes. No security torx bits (or whatever they come up with next). Ability to rad the CURRENT status of a code and reset it without $3000 worth of pST2 (e.g. airbag / seatbelt light stays on even after you fix it, and i cant reset it, thus i cant tell (easily) when its fixed. Why?)
I see no benefit. I've designed electronic products E2E and never had to hold back basic documentation except where trade secrets were concerned.
Agree, i'm not writing a repair manual for well, not you, you could read my notes, but for Joe homeowner. But i'm also not booby-trapping him. Most manufacturers ( as you rightly point out) do. I'll note that GM and Ford are among the best at providing documentation.
I had a CEL on my "new, old" car. Mystery emission failure per my handheld code reader, set to Porsche. Set to "Buick" it came back O2 sensor out of calibration, warm up, bank B". So why was this so %$#* ing hard for Porsche, when GM did it accidentally?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
I see no benefit. I've designed electronic products E2E and never had to hold back basic documentation except where trade secrets were concerned.
Agree, i'm not writing a repair manual for well, not you, you could read my notes, but for Joe homeowner. But i'm also not booby-trapping him. Most manufacturers ( as you rightly point out) do. I'll note that GM and Ford are among the best at providing documentation.
I had a CEL on my "new, old" car. Mystery emission failure per my handheld code reader, set to Porsche. Set to "Buick" it came back O2 sensor out of calibration, warm up, bank B". So why was this so %$#* ing hard for Porsche, when GM did it accidentally?
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| You have the documentation for simple codes, all of those that start with P0XXX... MarcW - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 10:48:23 am |
Quote
grant
Like simple documentation of codes. No security torx bits (or whatever they come up with next). Ability to rad the CURRENT status of a code and reset it without $3000 worth of pST2 (e.g. airbag / seatbelt light stays on even after you fix it, and i cant reset it, thus i cant tell (easily) when its fixed. Why?)
I see no benefit. I've designed electronic products E2E and never had to hold back basic documentation except where trade secrets were concerned.
Agree, i'm not writing a repair manual for well, not you, you could read my notes, but for Joe homeowner. But i'm also not booby-trapping him. Most manufacturers ( as you rightly point out) do. I'll note that GM and Ford are among the best at providing documentation.
I had a CEL on my "new, old" car. Mystery emission failure per my handheld code reader, set to Porsche. Set to "Buick" it came back O2 sensor out of calibration, warm up, bank B". So why was this so %$#* ing hard for Porsche, when GM did it accidentally?
Grant
At least I do. Porsche uses the SAE and ISO specs for OBD and this info is available from SAE. I have such a document, book. The section that lists all the possible error codes runs for maybe 60 pages. Or online one can type in the error code in a search box and have the meaning come up.
Now the P1XXX error codes are manufacturer specific. What Buick has for say P1235 is not the same as Ford, VW, Dodge, or Porsche.
Might mention in my experience to document a list of messages that runs but two pages requires maybe 60 or more pages of pretty dense documentation. To document all of the stuff for outside consumption would require a large forest of trees to make up the pages of the book. Ok Ok, the documentation would not have to be printed, but available in digital form. Still the amount of effort would be huge.
The PST2 and its newer manifestations represent considerable money/investment for Porsche. They are highly specialized computing systems. The market is small. Figure roughly one per dealer and that is all Porsche is concerned about. The diagnostics computer is geared towards not being a general diagnostics system but one specially tailored for Porsche cars and Porsche techs. The thing leads one from one test to another referencing info the tech should know from his training both in general automotive repair and specific training for the particular Porsche vehicle he is working on. The diagnostics computer assumes the tech has a full complement of proper tools and test equipment.
The diagnostics computer is linked via a wireless network to the internet connection at the dealer. This internet connection in this context goes right to the Porsche factory. This communication path is proprietary and not public and secure. Info is exchanged between the diagnostics computer and and the factory during the time the computer is connected and working. During trouble shooting the small computer has the benefit of being hooked up to whatever computer/AI system the factory has put together. It is like cloud computing with cloud located inside of some building at the Porsche factory.
In the whole the goal is to make the dealers more efficient at servicing/working on these cars, not to give the shade tree mechanic any real help.
The indy shops too. I mean with just the computer the shop is not much better off than it was without it. Chances are none of the techs have had any training on the specific models. At the dealers I visit on a semi-regular basis almost every time I visit one of the techs is away on training. A week long class costing several thousand dollars in addition to the the tech's pay and per diem costs. Also, the indy techs may or may not have the other special tools the models require.
Really I think it is the owners of these cars, at least some, that are woefully behind the times. Sure there are some that like to work on their cars and that's fine. But these are not cars for the DIYer's. More and more this will be the case. I would hazard the opinion that if one is really interested in doing his own work beyond the still relatively simple oil/filter, air filter, brakes, other vital fluids services, a Porsche is not the car to own.
Oh, airbag... I'm with Porsche on this. There is a list of steps to ensure the airbag and other safety restraint systems are properly repaired and in good working order. By having to clear this requiring a PST2 or something similar gives Porsche the paper, err electronic trail, that the repair/system check out was done according to the steps worked out by the factory in conjunction with the airbag maker. That the tech has gone through the proper airbag checkout/confirmation the system is working again steps is recorded electronically.
Now a layman mechanic works on the airbag, possibly fixing it, or more likely just wanting to ignore it and clear the error code. There's an accident and the airbag (and seat belt pre-tensioners) deploy. (In my Cayman S the airbag/pre-tensioners deployed before I realized (almost) there was an accident. Amazing technology the airbag and seat belt pre-tensioners.) The airbag doesn't deploy. You can be sure there'd be a hue and cry about that. Now Porsche has to answer to a federal agency's questions as to why. Porsche has to do a postmortem on the airbag system to try to figure out why it didn't work. Too many of these as might be the case if anyone with a $60 OBD2 code reader like device could clear the airbag light could have some over anxious federal agency issuing a recall.
| two points grant - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 11:23:41 am |
1. "Now the P1XXX error codes are manufacturer specific. What Buick has for say P1235 is not the same as Ford, VW, Dodge, or Porsche."
- but in the real world it was. The Buick code was correct.
2. Too many of these as might be the case if anyone with a $60 OBD2 code reader like device could clear the airbag light"
--> but its ok if you have $300 (durametric) one? I don't follow that logic. All i'm asking is that the light go out when the problem is in fact no longer detected. what' it doing now is lying about the condition.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
- but in the real world it was. The Buick code was correct.
2. Too many of these as might be the case if anyone with a $60 OBD2 code reader like device could clear the airbag light"
--> but its ok if you have $300 (durametric) one? I don't follow that logic. All i'm asking is that the light go out when the problem is in fact no longer detected. what' it doing now is lying about the condition.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| The fact two codes happened to coincide is just coincidence. There have been .... MarcW - Friday, 14 June, 2013, at 10:04:26 am |
more cases of two codes not agreeing as someone seeking info for a P1XXX code finds some reference for another vehicle and works under the impression what he found applies to his car.
The P1XXX codes do not have to remain the same from model to model or model year to model year.
Like I said the P1XXX codes are set aside for use by the automaker (and which ever DME maker the automaker is partnered with) to use as they see fit. There may be restrictions in the hundreds of pages of documentation but that pretty much covers it.
The fact the $300 tool clears the error code and extinguishes the warning light is not anything more than that. The tool issues the command to erase the code and extinguish the light but it has *not* helped guide the tech through the process of ensuring the system is in deed 100% operational and therefore safe.
Same with the service engine now light. The operator can clear the light but perform no service. (I would expect the DME firmware to record this fact for posterity. I would also expect there are other counters, time keepers that are not reset thus when the car is scanned by a real diagnostics computer these will show the service engine now light was extinguished without the use of a proper Porsche diagnostics tool.) The clearing of the ABS warning light or service engine light is a lie. The factory specified procedures/steps to address the reason for the light being on have almost certainly not been followed. The operator looks at the light as the problem when it is what the light signals is the problem.
The P1XXX codes do not have to remain the same from model to model or model year to model year.
Like I said the P1XXX codes are set aside for use by the automaker (and which ever DME maker the automaker is partnered with) to use as they see fit. There may be restrictions in the hundreds of pages of documentation but that pretty much covers it.
The fact the $300 tool clears the error code and extinguishes the warning light is not anything more than that. The tool issues the command to erase the code and extinguish the light but it has *not* helped guide the tech through the process of ensuring the system is in deed 100% operational and therefore safe.
Same with the service engine now light. The operator can clear the light but perform no service. (I would expect the DME firmware to record this fact for posterity. I would also expect there are other counters, time keepers that are not reset thus when the car is scanned by a real diagnostics computer these will show the service engine now light was extinguished without the use of a proper Porsche diagnostics tool.) The clearing of the ABS warning light or service engine light is a lie. The factory specified procedures/steps to address the reason for the light being on have almost certainly not been followed. The operator looks at the light as the problem when it is what the light signals is the problem.
MikenOH - Tuesday, 11 June, 2013, at 10:54:54 am |
| Re: Have to remove rear bumper to change air filter..... BoxsterBob - San Carlos - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 6:23:19 pm |
We bought a beetle for our daughter and took it to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. The skid plate under the engine had some bizarre multi-point, torx-like bolts. They didn't have a bit that fit. I had to go to 3 tool shops before I found one that fit. I'm sure this is concerted effort by VW to steer routine maintenance away from DIYers and non-dealer shops.
| The Porsche "purists" used to laugh at Boxster owners... SMILIN - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 7:01:12 pm |
in '97-'98, in my local Porsche region and on several forums, Boxsters/Boxster owners used to get laughed at by "purists" not just because of the water-cooled engine, but because you had to drop the engine to change the oil. Of course, that wasn't true, but it always made me chuckle.
I'm sure it's also just a myth that you have to remove the bumper cover to change the air filter. Oh, wait, there's video....
I'm sure it's also just a myth that you have to remove the bumper cover to change the air filter. Oh, wait, there's video....
| To expect a place that lives on offering discount oil/filter service... MarcW - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 9:58:17 am |
Quote
BoxsterBob - San Carlos
We bought a beetle for our daughter and took it to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. The skid plate under the engine had some bizarre multi-point, torx-like bolts. They didn't have a bit that fit. I had to go to 3 tool shops before I found one that fit. I'm sure this is concerted effort by VW to steer routine maintenance away from DIYers and non-dealer shops.
to have a set of tools that is as complete as a specialized tech's tools -- for every make/model of vehicle -- is I believe expecting too much.
In fact to me it says more about the Jiffy Lube's lack of preparation and the other shops too, for a new and popular model of car than it does about any effort on VW to make routine maintenance harder to places like Jiffy.
I think you were lucky the shops didn't have the tools. Not having the right tools is bad enough. But chances are they would not have had the knowledge to do a proper oil/filter service for your daughter's car.
| 'Change Happens'... jlegelis - Wednesday, 12 June, 2013, at 10:20:06 pm |
Get over it, folks - this is called 'progress'... besides, why worry about the things you can't control (i.e. there are probably about three people in this world that wouldn't by a 991 because one needs to remove the rear bumper to change the air filter). Water-cooled, DSG, non-changeable air filters... hell, I'll take my polluting, smog-choked, tail-happy 175hp 1974 2.7 any day. Not!
| Remember cars that had V-8s from the factory mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 9:48:12 pm |
MikenOH - Thursday, 13 June, 2013, at 10:35:58 pm |
I remember reading about that fiasco when the car was introduced--the engine had to be raised a bit to remove one of the back plugs.
Then again, given all the problems Chevy had with the 4 bangers, raising the engine at 50K miles--I think that was the plug change interval--wasn't as big a deal as having 4 cyl. the head gasket fail, allowing coolant to mix with the oil and the subsequent engine replacement.
Then again, given all the problems Chevy had with the 4 bangers, raising the engine at 50K miles--I think that was the plug change interval--wasn't as big a deal as having 4 cyl. the head gasket fail, allowing coolant to mix with the oil and the subsequent engine replacement.
Laz - Friday, 14 June, 2013, at 12:09:26 am |
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