Re: I'm with JM on this one + 1

Fog lamps are for fog. So why is it that numerous people who have fog lamps use them in normal city traffic? On the highway? The rear fog lamps are relatively blinding, and the front fog lamps are just annoying.

So why do people use fog lamps in non fog conditions?

Oh, and we P-car drivers can end our superiority -- this peeve arose from a guy in a very nice Cayman S blinding me as I was following him tonight on my way home.

.... emergency flasher stupidity when it rains.
Talk about being blinded at night with the idiots in front, behind and on your sides all flashing their emergency lights.
Happy Porscheing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I got stuck in a line of traffic on the highway. The car in front was driven by a woman, flashers going. Went on for about 20 miles, then low and behold they went off. They were off for about 5 minutes and I had an opportunity to pass her and so I did. However, as I was passing her I saw that she was in the process of making a new cell phone call and a second later on went the flashers again. Gee - does that make her a safer driver. NOT

people who control their speed on the highway using their brakes. Lights on and off all the time. You never know when they're really meaning to stop because of an accident or traffic jam up ahead.

Mine is poor lane discipline - especially after my recent trip to Europe where folks stay in the right lane unless passing. While driving at 150 mph, you still have to worry about a guy in a Fiat 500 misjudging your speed and trying to pass a truck in front of you - but generally they signal to warn you. Of course, in Italy, it was not quite as good - but still infinitely better than the U.S.

If you are on the highway, regardless if it is raining heavily or you are simply just driving slowly, you are supposed to use your flashers if going less than 45 mph on a highway. At least, that's what I was taught.

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Pedro (Weston, FL)
.... emergency flasher stupidity when it rains.
Talk about being blinded at night with the idiots in front, behind and on your sides all flashing their emergency lights.
Happy Porscheing
Pedro

From FS316.2397

"...(7) Flashing lights are prohibited on vehicles except: (a) As a means of indicating a right or left turn, to change lanes, or to indicate that the vehicle is lawfully stopped or disabled upon the highway;...."

I wish they would enforce it!

Al

Traveling through Missouri eastbound at sun up. Two lanes each direction, and a multi-mile straightaway. Up ahead, about 300 feet, a minor accident occurred, looking to be only a motorcycle that skidded into the grass median. (The cyclist was walking around, apparently unhurt.) People were out of their cars and an ambulance had already arrived. The traffic had backed up, though, and as I was about to stop, I somehow felt the left lane would be better. In my rear view mirror, way off in the distance I could see an SUV barreling up, and I wasn't sure if I should dart into the median if it didn't slow down. Suddenly it swerved off to the right, down an embankment and flipped two, if not three times. People ran over to the wreck, and I saw an 18 wheeler also barreling along... it also swerved within about a hundred feet of me and the adjacent car... and although it stayed upright it actually went partially airborne, then the cab and trailer repeatedly impacted the ground doing a crazy vertical jackknifing, finally plowing into some trees. That was a most appropriate situation to be using the flashers, at least until other vehicles had stopped behind. This was a long time ago, and I can't remember if I put the flashers on, but considering the blinding sunlight, I'd like to think I did as I came to a halt. I wonder though, if coincidentally both drivers were asleep at the wheel.

that read "If you have your fog lights on and it ain't foggy, you're a doofus." A sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agreed with then and still do. I can't remember the last time I used the fog lights on my cars. I test them once in a while but seldom use them unless, hey, its foggy.

at night on an otherwise unlit road with no one approaching, you need all the lighting you can get. Fogs are particularly useful for peripheral lighting. Think - deer lurking in the brush at roadside.

Like the Civics with the spoilers almost bigger than the trunk on the car.

On an unlit road with no traffic approaching, I ALWAYS use my high beams (which automatically turns off front fog lights which, unfortunately, we don't have on our 981's). With the Bi-Xenons, you really get a lot of light on the road and specifically way down the right side to pick up signs (and little glowing eyes) way down the road.

To be effective, I think fog lights need to be positioned low at the front to pick up the road below the fog.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2013 03:14PM by Laz. (view changes)

on my Nissan Sentra. It's great when I carry my bike. I can keep my bike on the back of the car and wrap the lock around the bike, carrier and to the spoiler. Someone actually did attempt to steal my bike at work. The straps from the bike rack were taken off my car and my bike was ajar from the rack. They couldn't take it because of the lock on the spoiler ..... I was quite pleased

Joanne

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Joanne in OC
on my Nissan Sentra. It's great when I carry my bike. I can keep my bike on the back of the car and wrap the lock around the bike, carrier and to the spoiler. Someone actually did attempt to steal my bike at work. The straps from the bike rack were taken off my car and my bike was ajar from the rack. They couldn't take it because of the lock on the spoiler ..... I was quite pleased

Joanne

Sounds like your car spoiled the thief's plans.

PS, I was referring to those huge spoilers they put on the civics around here - big enough to land a small helicopter on. Likely knocks 10 mph off the top speed of the car.

I use fogs, uh, in fog. I use them on the way to our cottage when I need side illumination. I don't see why you need them on (particularly the piercing rear fog) in the city.

I like the fogs when driving on rural roads for the peripheral light. The switch on my '99 allows 1 click to turn on the fogs and 2 clicks to add the rear taillight for true foggy conditions.

Older Jags, Land Rovers, and some Audis seem to have rear fog lamp switch (single red lamp on the left rear) which is too easy too engage - resulting in seared retinas on a clear night. I'm sure 99% of the drivers never knew they had it on the car... an interesting 'cultural' vestige of European cars.

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jlegelis
Older Jags, Land Rovers, and some Audis seem to have rear fog lamp switch (single red lamp on the left rear) which is too easy too engage - resulting in seared retinas on a clear night. I'm sure 99% of the drivers never knew they had it on the car... an interesting 'cultural' vestige of European cars.

I don't think that people don't know they're using it. They just think it's 'cool' and they want to show off that they 'have it'. My experience last night was precisely that -- idiot in a Cayman S with his car lit up like a Christmas tree. Or rather, the rear laser light on.....

I passed him and jumped in front of him, only to find he had his front fogs on to.

Idiot.

I use my fog lights all the time. They are low and peripheral and do not harm anyone else. I find it makes a difference no matter what the weather.

For my money, I want as much light coming out the front of my car as I can - within reason. So, for instance, I do not use high beams in traffic, which seems to be a popular option around here.

I do not use the rear fog light, simply because I don't believe anyone else will know what it is. They will just assume one brake light is out.

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JMstamford,ct
I use my fog lights all the time. They are low and peripheral and do not harm anyone else. I find it makes a difference no matter what the weather.

For my money, I want as much light coming out the front of my car as I can - within reason. So, for instance, I do not use high beams in traffic, which seems to be a popular option around here.

I do not use the rear fog light, simply because I don't believe anyone else will know what it is. They will just assume one brake light is out.

I disagree respectfully (as I stow away from crack pipe). Your fog lamps may be low and peripheral, but they add to the overall luminosity in a rear view mirror at night, which distracts from being able to see adequately forward, if you eyes don't adjust. Xenons are highly focused bulbs and are actually designed to fall below the rear window line, but you certainly notice the difference between the luminosity of a xenon versus a halogen. The xenons can afford to be so bright because they are well focused, but I don't think you'd disagree that they appear much brighter in your rear view mirror. Fog lamps in the city are useless as the roads are generally well illuminated and headlamps are well designed to illuminate the path of travel of a vehicle, particularly one travelling at normal speeds. High beams in traffic are just ignorant, and a rear fog lamp is piercingly blinding.

The larger problem is a lot of SUVs have fog lamps which are well above the trunk line in both my cars, and that is plain annoying -- it's like having high beams shining in.

I agree with m4240z. They're called fog lamps because they're designed for use in fog. As I'd mentioned before, to be useful, they should be mounted low at the front of the car, to shine under the fog and show the road. (Fog usually is thinner right at ground level, helping to light up the road.) Since you don't feel you have enough light under normal conditions, I take it you don't have Xenons. It would be an option worth considering.

I don't see how fog lights will help in traffic (unless it's foggy of course) as there's enough light source from other cars. They do distract other drivers (enough people have posted here alone to indicate that), so it seems like a hazard to me.

As far as the rear fog light. I never use it either, unless of course it's foggy out. The whole point of it is to make you more visible in thick fog to cars behind you so they don't run into you. I don't really care if people think one of my brake lights is out, as long as they see me in foggy conditions.

... and notice there's an "s".
I added the second one and find that pulling the fog light switch sooner than I brake at the track lets me get away quicker out of the turn than the GT3 behind me
It's also useful if you have a tailgater. It gets them off your asset quickly.
Just my $0.02.
Happy Fogging
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Front fogs really help fill out the area closer to your car and reach out to the sides for more visibility. I can see this helping even in the city to help spot people maybe staring to come off the curb. The rear fog, I only use in HEAVY rain or actual fog to help others from running into the back of me, not needed at any other time. If you are complaining about it being to bright and blinding you, which should not be the case in a properly aimed fog, they point down not out, then you do realize you can adjust the rear view mirror to dim to remove the glare? The one thing I HATE is when people put HID kits in their fogs, even if they are projector fogs. You do not want the light color that a HID gives you in a fog, you want something lower than in the light range than HID white. There is a reason older fogs are yellow, the lower light spectrum does not reflect as much in fog and cuts through for better visibility. Also, if a lens is not designed for the HID bulb, it cannot focus the light and will not cut off the pattern to prevent it from blinding oncoming cars.
My 2 cents!

Steve
Guards Red 1999
I'm not a race car driver, but I play one in 2nd and 3rd gear

When I'm driving, I'm always looking a lot farther down the road than the front of my car (unless I'm driving in fog, in which case I'd be driving much slower than normal.), so don't understand the need to have the road immediately in front of the car to be lit up more than the regular lights provide.

Which city has such poor street lighting that you can't see people on the sidewalk at night?

I have fog lights, so I turn them on. BFD. It's my car and I like all the extra light. It does no harm except to a bunch of old curmudgeons, and yet may help those same curmudgeons see and avoid my car, which is a a safety factor, however small. It's not like my fog lights are going to blind you. To those who don't like it, my suggestion is MYOB and concentrate your gripes on genuine problems, like drivers on the cell phone, texting, reading, eating, putting on makeup, clogging the fast lane, etc. etc.

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paulwdenton
I have fog lights, so I turn them on. BFD. It's my car and I like all the extra light. It does no harm except to a bunch of old curmudgeons, and yet may help those same curmudgeons see and avoid my car, which is a a safety factor, however small. It's not like my fog lights are going to blind you. To those who don't like it, my suggestion is MYOB and concentrate your gripes on genuine problems, like drivers on the cell phone, texting, reading, eating, putting on makeup, clogging the fast lane, etc. etc.

Insightful.

In some countries use of fog lights when there is no fog will get you a ticket.

Recall the moth and the candle, where the moth was attracted to the light, flew into the flame and died.

Using all the lights, head, fog driving, or any combination, could attract a "curmudgeon" to hit you head on. Or blind him/her enough that he/she crashes into someone else or runs off the road.

Get a red or yellow car if you want others to see you.

Ed B

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Ed B
In some countries use of fog lights when there is no fog will get you a ticket.

Recall the moth and the candle, where the moth was attracted to the light, flew into the flame and died.

Using all the lights, head, fog driving, or any combination, could attract a "curmudgeon" to hit you head on. Or blind him/her enough that he/she crashes into someone else or runs off the road.

Get a red or yellow car if you want others to see you.

Ed B

Ed brings up a good point. I know that in some European cities it is actually illegal to drive with your headlights on at night. Marker lights only. I recall driving in Vienna at night and having cars flash at me, I checked and had my headlights on, then realized that everyone else only had their marker light on. The feeling was there was enough street lighting to drive safely at 30 mph.

I believe that consistency would make things a lot safer for everyone. As an example, here in Canada, all cars manufactured since 1991 have had to have running lights. I'd estimate that between 5 - 10% of cars have theirs deactivated for whatever reason, the drivers want them that way. Those cars become less visible, because everyone is used to seeing the lights on a car. For the most part, the cars that don't have their driving lights activated are also the ones that don't turn their full lighting system on at dusk. They wait until it's completely dark (and in some cases not even then )

Oh, in relation to safe colours - In studies that have been done, red is the second worst colour next to black for visibility. The most common colour blindness is red, to whom it just looks like gray and red is apparently less visible in our peripheral vision. The two safest colours, according to studies are (1) lime green and (2) white.

You are correct Lime green and white are best at night. Arrest me Red and yellow work well in daylight.

Ed B

Again, I'm talking about regular lighting conditions. In fog, give me fog lights.

For several years, I drove an old 1966 VW bug with a 6 volt battery.

The lights were not the best - to be charitable.

I could see decently well. But it was far from optional. Others had problems seeing me though especially in traffic.

What this suggested to me is the more light the better. Up to the point where it becomes a danger for others.

The SUV drivers with badly adjusted lights are a problem - it doesn't matter if you are not using your high beams if your low beams are not properly set up.

Re: xenons and the like: I find they are sometimes too bright for cars coming in the opposite direction. They are legal and there is little that can be done.

In may cars, I have standard lights, but I do use silverstar ultras (I think that is the name)

I know the old cars didn't have the best of lighting systems. But anyone who couldn't see you coming, even with the old lights on, would have had to be walking with a white cane.

Drove my wife's 328i home through the city this evening (after dark) with a very light fog. I turned on her fog lights (mounted as low as you can get them in the bumper) and yes they did light things up close to the front of the car, but did absolutely nothing for where my focus is when I'm driving.- a block or two in front. On the highway, my focus is much further down the road. At night, my focus would be near the farthest reach of my headlights (ideally high beams if there's no one in front of me or coming toward me).

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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JMstamford,ct
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I precisely, fully know what it means. Hence, I wasn't referring to you.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Like I prevoiously posted, on an unlit road, the more light, the merrier, and fogs help with peripheral illumination. HIDs, as used on Porsches at least, have a nicely extended horizontal projection, making fog lights a little less necessary.

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Laz
Like I prevoiously posted, on an unlit road, the more light, the merrier, and fogs help with peripheral illumination. HIDs, as used on Porsches at least, have a nicely extended horizontal projection, making fog lights a little less necessary.

No question on an unlit road, the more light the merrier, but the other side of that is that if there is a car in front of you, you've got tail lights to follow, and the Xenons on a 986 give a nicely directed light, which is very focussed to reduce glare in the rear view mirror of a car that is in front.

I just remember driving along one night, and some guy in an SUV with enough lights to illuminate a football field was behind me, making the interior of my car glow like it was daylight. That's my issue.

Of course one should judge whether or not the driver ahead knows where he/she is going, and not about to go off a cliff! With another car within, say, a quarter/third of a mile, the highs come off. Also, I'm constantly on and off the high beams in regard to oncoming traffic. Maybe it's like this with the 986 and 7 HIDs, but for sure the 981 pattern is very well defined on high and low, so it can be easy to tell if the light is dazzling oncoming vehicles. (Thinking of a highway gentle right bend: your lights are projecting more directly across a median. I don't thinks the 986, and more so the 987's fogs are much of an issue in any case.

They'd be much more useful than fog lights in normal night time driving. When high beams are on, fog lights automatically are shut off. They serve two different purposes.

Fog light to get under the fog.

High beams to light up as far down the road as possible. I realize it means turning them on and off when you have a car approaching or in front of you, but they're the best solution for night time driving on the highway. I'm always amazed at how few people every use their high beams on an unlit road.

When I put Marchal 850s on each of my Alfas, the instructions' wiring diagrams were such that the fogs would switch off when the brights were engaged. The logic behind that is if one is using the fogs for fog, with its distal visibility limitation, there is no need for high beams, which are meant for seeing long distances at "normal" speeds. (Also, one is likely driving much slower in fog.) Also there is the high reflectivity of fog, and the high beams make it more opaque, therefore less safe to use them, hence the possible legal restriction. Because I felt I could judge the proper use of all the lighting, I wired them such that they were independent of the high/low switch. Although both cars were fitted with Cibié Z-Beams, state-of-the-art in their time, the Marchals helped a lot with peripheral illumination. By the way, the Marchal instructions also indicated that the lenses had to be inverted if they were "hung" from their mounting hardware: the lenses had sharp upper cut-offs when properly mounted.

(regardless of what the manual may say on the matter)

The difference between (correctly-aimed) fog lights and driving lights is where they shine. Fog lights are lights that are designed to illuminate objects from underneath the fog, which generally does not touch the ground. Fog lights must be low-mounted and they must not shine in an upward direction.

Driving lights are supplemental lights that may shine wider than the regular low beams but do (should) not shine brightly in the eyes of oncoming motorists. The "fog lights" on the 986 are in the headlight housing so they are actually driving lights.

should put as much energy forward in a narrow cone for maximum distal illumination.

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Boxsterra
(regardless of what the manual may say on the matter)

The difference between (correctly-aimed) fog lights and driving lights is where they shine. Fog lights are lights that are designed to illuminate objects from underneath the fog, which generally does not touch the ground. Fog lights must be low-mounted and they must not shine in an upward direction.

Driving lights are supplemental lights that may shine wider than the regular low beams but do (should) not shine brightly in the eyes of oncoming motorists. The "fog lights" on the 986 are in the headlight housing so they are actually driving lights.

Yeah, they're more like little glow lights that give off a nice bunch of ambient light. I frankly wish that they did what Laz suggested a real driving light is -- a lot of intensity, well focussed, to give longer reach so you don't overdrive the cars lighting system. That much being said, I find the Xenons pretty darn good.

fog lights are typically yellow and very shallow cutoff.

Driving lights are typically white and low and wide - revealing the road edges without bothering (or so the idea goes) oncoming traffic.

I use neither.

Grant

Grant

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