Wow - haven't heard that name in AGES! *NM*

4.2L putting out an estimated 450HP (at crank).

Reportedly, they bought a new CS, put some track miles on it, and then tore it apart for their 4.2L conversion.

Some interesting observations on DFI engine wear, suggesting oil dilution caused by fuel getting by the rings (on a car used extensively at the track) is the culprit. If you're tracking a 9A1, change your oil frequently
He also commented on high oil temps--which may have contributed to M96/M97 engine failures at the track-- which were reduced with a GT3 front bumper that allowed better airflow. Also, there are comments about how specific oil--higher weights--can actually lower oil pressure with the 9A1 motor.

Interesting read; I'm going to email him and see if I can get some details on the specific oil temps he was seeing.

I guess I'll stay with 0-40 when the warranty expires, instead of going with 5-40.
(As with my 01, everything but tires was done by dealers, with the idea that should anything go wrong, there would be less doubt as to which party would be responsible.)

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2013 02:27PM by Laz. (view changes)

Quote
Laz
I guess I'll stay with 0-40 when the warranty expires, instead of going with 5-40.
(As with my 01, everything but tires was done by dealers, with the idea that should anything go wrong, there would be less doubt as to which party would be responsible.)

according to the article, the ECU can read the weight of the particular oil. if that weight is high enough, it can restrict or lower the flow of oil.
since 5w-40 is on the list of approved oils, I'm thinking the 5w-40 weight would not create asituation where the ECU cuts back on oil pressure.
having said that, did you look at the oil analysis from the posters various samples over the past year?
those are all 0w-40 Mobile 1samples, and some of them with a little as 2500 miles on them have nearly dropped out of being a 40 weight oil.
My take away is that if you are tracking your car a lot--like this guy was--and using 0w-40 M1, you would do well to change your oil very frequently- like every
2-3K. I'll check with guy that provided the
samples and see how many track days he had on each.

Thicker oil will certainly have more pressure variation than thinner oil when cold. It will have high pressure at the pump, but due to poor pumpability, lower pressure possibly at the business end. Remember, viscosity is a measure of resistance to flow. This is normal - in fact its why we have multi-vis oils, and if they didn't break down, and was technically possible, we'd all have 0w-1000000.

But they do break down and"DC-to-light" is not possible. So we compromise.

Thick oil does not flow well at low temps, and therefore may have low pressure sometimes, depending on where measured. This is why, if one chooses to run a thicker oil, one must be very, very gentle until its truly warm. Note that he difference between 5w and 0w may be erased by a few degrees F.

So i neither find this shocking nor compelling. Its motor oil 101.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
Laz
I guess I'll stay with 0-40 when the warranty expires, instead of going with 5-40.
(As with my 01, everything but tires was done by dealers, with the idea that should anything go wrong, there would be less doubt as to which party would be responsible.)

Laz:
Not sure that this is the best info on what the high temp viscosity ranges are for current oils, but it seemed comprehensive.
Essentially, it spells out the technical requirement to qualify to be called a 20W, 30W, 40W weight oil:
[patentimages.storage.googleapis.com]

Essentially, to be rated as a 40 weight oil--the minimum Porsche requires in these engines--the viscosity at 100 deg. C. must be at a minimum 12.5. M1 starts out when new with this rating at about 13.5; in the OP's oil analysis it ends up at between 11 and 11.3 after 3-4K miles (and some track days).
I don't think this is much of a big deal in every day driving, but on the track--especially on a hot day--the lower viscosity may contribute to some engine wear/failures, as the article suggests.
Since we track our car, I plan on doing an oil analysis on the oil changes going forward to get a feel for how the particular oils hold up to the use and help decide what a proper interval might be for our car.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

[www.flat6innovations.com]

Both the Flat6 Stock and Stage l engines are sold with a 1 year warranty that excludes any kind of track duty. The Stage ll motors and higher are sold without a warranty.

It wasn't stated in the Pano article but it would seem if you want a 4.2L motor like the one in the article, don't expect a warranty to go with it.

I know Jake has a reputation of being a very knowledgeable engine builder, but is that how typical race engine or custom engine builders work--no warranty?

I have some running shoes to sell you. Warranty is void if you run in them.

I agree.

Given the ability to read the car's computer to view the operating history, one would think the seller could add some conditions/exclusions to strike a balance between standing behind his product and avoiding liability no matter what the cause of failure. I'm thinking, for example, of massive over-rev's caused by a messed up down-shift.

I suppose that, in the end, if the vendor is able to sell lots of engines, without providing any warranty, there's not much incentive for him to warranty them. In the long haul, if the engines fail under circumstances where they shouldn't, word will spread, and sales will drop off. But that won't provide much consolation to those with broken engines.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Well, isn't racing an inherently dangerous activity with respect to all the mechanicals?

You run any motor at the top of its performance envelope, you are likely to get breakage - and it is no one's fault.

How could anyone warrant a race motor?

Now if you are not going to race it, that is something else. In this case though - it seems apparent that it is an experimental deal, you are pushing the envelope. That is on you. Seems to me. You want conservative? You want warranty? Stick to tried and true or factory engines.

Quote
JMstamford,ct
Well, isn't racing an inherently dangerous activity with respect to all the mechanicals?

You run any motor at the top of its performance envelope, you are likely to get breakage - and it is no one's fault.

How could anyone warrant a race motor?

Now if you are not going to race it, that is something else. In this case though - it seems apparent that it is an experimental deal, you are pushing the envelope. That is on you. Seems to me. You want conservative? You want warranty? Stick to tried and true or factory engines.

Agreed-I can understand the reluctance to warranty a race engine that will be used in all out competitive events, where the owners are pushing everything to the limit to win. Having said that--there are some that do.

But DE use? We're talking 3-4 25 minute sessions/day at more like 6-9/10s driving, rather than all out-- dependent on the participant.

Or AutoX?--roughly 8-10 60 second runs/day around a tight course with speeds usually less than 60 mph. You may occasionally hit the rev limiter but that's what it's there for. The factory motors handle this kind of stuff just fine--in my experience--as long as you do the maintenance; IIRC, Pedro got about 200K out his 2.5 with lots of track miles on it.

Given the extensive improvements to the "Stock" and Stage 1 motors offered--including more HP--my question is what would be the point of doing this type of upgrade, if you're not going to track it, considering the expense?

How much of the rest of the cooling system is up to snuff?

How much of the rest of the oil storage and cooling system is up to snuff?

How frequent are the fluid changes? With what?

How frequent and comprehensive are the diagnostics run in a race world?

How frequent and long are the events? Two DEs are different than 1 enduro.

I don't hear a lot of people complaining so one wonders if there is some relationship maintaining approach which is different than a legally binding warranty.

I have heard of race engines that are only rented, must be rebuilt after every event, etc.