Re: Somewhat related to this discussion...

Any thoughts on this article?

(I do mine differently, but perhaps this is the preferred way?)

[www.pelicanparts.com]

referred to in the article you linked to are ok to use other than the car doesn't crumple when these are used.

I know there are times if one is a DIY'er that the car needs to be in the air but I believe based on the factory guidelines for lifting these cars this ought to be accomplished by a lift. It doesn't have to be a fancy lift one sees in the dealer service department bays but it should be a lift that can safely lift the car and support it either by lifting it by its tires/wheels or with arms/protected pads at the 4 factory lift points.

Real easy guys. Jack up the entire rear end by jacking at the at the rear end of the under tray, where the U shaped support connects to the under tray. Once the rear end is up, jack the front end at the frame rails shown in the Pelican article. I've done this countless times. Once it's up on the jacks, go linebacker on the car, push it as hard as you can, forward, backwards sideways. Alright, don't go too crazy on the front, since it's very light. But it's better to have the car fall off a jack while testing it than when you are under it.

pointed this out.

Only time I've seen a Porsche lifted any other way other than with a lift and supported by its 4 tires/wheels or by the 4 lift points is when a tech lifted my Cayman S, *after* it had been declared a total loss. He used a floor jack but still he used one of the lift points.

Exactly - I've been using your 'center jacking method' for years at the track when I need to quickly elevate the rear. Then I put two jack stands under the 'Porsche approved' rear jacking points and lower the car onto the stands. Seems to be standard procedure by 986/987 track rats.

Don't really care what Porsche 'approves' or doesn't approve.. they stopped development on my car almost 10 years ago. What they seem really good at is controlling the conversation through FUD, whether it's IMS ('don't wanna talk about it'), or N-rated tires ('use only our N-approved tires'), or 'pay $250 for an oil change by our factory trained techs'. No thanks, I prefer to think for myself...

- JohnL
Boston
'01 986S

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

it left the factory assembly line but that doesn't mean the car picks up structural or other improvements from later models by some action across a distance through the ether.

What applied to the car when it left the line still applies.

As for n-rated tires I've read enough reports by some owners, enough owners, who've tried these and found issues that I'm convinced n-rated tires is much more than some conspiracy by Porsche and the tire companies to steal money from unsuspecting naive Porsche owners.

Funny that apparently no one thinks non n-rated tire companies are capable of allowing tire customers to be misled into thinking all that matters is the tire be black and round and fit the wheel without flying off to be suitable for use on in this case Porsches. Guess Porsche and the n-rated tire companies are the only corporations capable of behavior to take advantage of their customers.

N rated tires are tested by Porsche and meet their expectations.

End.

This weeds out poor quality and inappropriate tires, and those that don't pay for testing.

But many excellent tires are not N rated and never will be. Zero racing slicks, for example. Michelin SuperSports**, widely felt to be Michelin's best tire. BFG G-force-2 sport/whatever - flat out the best overall, do-anything tires i've ever had, especially for the cost. Run them on the boxster at LRP and on the Audi at VIR and Pocono, AND drove them in slushy snow. not N rated.

Is N rating a diabolical plot? No, see above. Its a certification program. End.

Don't make it more or less than it is.

Grant

** a porsche tech rep commented to a colleague, in private of course, that the SS's will never have an N rating because they have too high a grip, coupled with less audible warning of break-away and that doesn't suit Porsche's desires for tame tires. Does that make them good? depends. Does that make them bad? depends. It makes them what they are - fabulous tires, that are not dumbed down, without an N rating.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2014 07:36PM by grant. (view changes)

Grant - Couldn't agree more.. It's an analog world; a continuum of possible solutions depending on context and perspective. The factory has one perspective, I've got a different one. Honestly, it's one of the best parts about owning a Porsche: the world of factory and aftermarket 'enhancements' available to fix or upgrade our cars.

Sheesh, according to Porsche scripture our cars doesn't even exist: Boxsters at the track!!?? Was ist das? That's not in the 'approved'!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2014 08:28PM by jlegelis. (view changes)

I meant to say, write, that I've read enough reports of owners fitting *NON* N-rated tires to their cars and then complaining about the car's ride/feel attributable to the *NON* N-rated tires that I am convinced there is a real and important difference and a positive difference, a benefit, to N-rated tires.

by different people here:
Tire Rack explanation of N rating...
A bit of the same info from PorscheMag.com...

Basically when it comes to N rating tires, it's personal preference. I've seen some dealers that will not mount a non-N rated tire to your rims, and I've seen other dealers that will put what you want, but will waive responsibility of your tire choice.
You will only get N ratings on the big name brand tires because these are the only companies that want to take the time and money to work with Porsche engineers to boutique design a tire to their wants. Noise, handling, wet handling, and tire consistency through its lifespan are key to the N rating. As Grant said, there are some kick ass tires out there on the cheap that will for all reasonable purposes meet your needs, AND possibly meet all requirements that Porsche wants in an N rated tire, but since the company did not want to spend the time and money on the certification process(which I have heard is pricey), it is a factory blasphemy to put on our cars.
As many on this board have done, non-N rated tires work perfectly. I could do with the added road noise from my old Kuhmo MX's because it had huge tread blocks and worked amazing in the dry and light wet conditions. My new non-N rated Hankooks that Pedro suggested, are similarly a great tire that fit my needs as an enthusiast with a "fun on the weekend" car. If I lived in Europe near an Autobahn, and drove my car more, maybe I would invest in an N rated tire as I would be experiencing higher speeds, varying weather conditions, and need the consistency of those tires.
It's important to note that many of the things we do and put on our cars would never in any way be condoned by Porsche, B&M short shifter? Just voided any claims to transmission issues. High flow intakes or non-Porsche air filters? good luck with many engine claims! Lowered your car? yep, a bit of the same here.
In the end, its your car, not theirs, so make your own educated decision based on your needs, driving conditions, usage, and what type of experience you want. The factory approved stuff is a good starting point for most people, but its places like here and PPBB where you will get real world opinions on various options available to you. See the clutch and flywheel thread earlier on the page and you will see several varying options expressed to the guy asking the question. He now has some info to go on and make a decision for himself, that he may never have come across without the people here sharing their experience.
So, MarW has stated his info based on the factory and possibly how he maintains his cars and his beliefs in maintenance, Grant his experience from his world of tracking and modifying his car and the way he maintains his vehicle. Neither is wrong, and I highly doubt there is any intention of saying I'm right, I'm wrong on either side. Remember, its the internet. You can't tell all the time when someones jesting or being super serious, everyone gets to say their piece, and we all get to come to our own conclusions. Don't take offense if someone does not have your taste in watches, or definition of a spoiler when it comes to producing downforce or reducing lift. In the end, I want to come to this page for the people, not for preaching. So on that note, I'll get off my own soapbox now! I'm fairly certain I've just ranted on for no reason! But I'll post it anyway for the benefit of the possibly uninformed...
Need beer, stuck at work damnit!

Steve
Guards Red 1999
I'm not a race car driver, but I play one in 2nd and 3rd gear

I think Steve's points are important... many of Porsche recommendations are in the context of warranty coverage, and which pieces have been tested and verified by Porsche to work correctly at the time the car was built, certifying the car performs to the standard to which is was designed and sold for the duration of the warranty. However, lack of Porsche's explicit 'approval' does not in any way invalidate the world of aftermarket products and techniques which many here utilize, it only means that Porsche doesn't have the interest or time to certify each new method (which manufacturer does?). Of course there are alternate tires, jacking points, oils, filters, shifters, suspensions, programming which work as well or 'better' than the OEM equipment - to suggest that only Porsche knows best is an insult to the innovators and manufacturers of the components (many of which are also OEM suppliers to other brands too), and the customers who choose them.

Quote
jlegelis
I think Steve's points are important... many of Porsche recommendations are in the context of warranty coverage, and which pieces have been tested and verified by Porsche to work correctly at the time the car was built, certifying the car performs to the standard to which is was designed and sold for the duration of the warranty. However, lack of Porsche's explicit 'approval' does not in any way invalidate the world of aftermarket products and techniques which many here utilize, it only means that Porsche doesn't have the interest or time to certify each new method (which manufacturer does?). Of course there are alternate tires, jacking points, oils, filters, shifters, suspensions, programming which work as well or 'better' than the OEM equipment - to suggest that only Porsche knows best is an insult to the innovators and manufacturers of the components (many of which are also OEM suppliers to other brands too), and the customers who choose them.

Other car makers have similar stances to Porsche's N spec tire ratings--like BMW.

BMW equips nearly all of their cars with RFTs, which can be a benefit to owners by preventing flat tires on the road. With the reinforced sidewall, a car can drive roughly 50 miles at reduced speed with no air in the tire, avoiding having to stop, change the tire and all the excitement that goes along with it.

OTOH, there is baggage that comes with these tires--high replacement costs, very firm ride, higher unsprung weight, usually can't be fixed--to name a few. BMW's view is that the car is tuned specifically for these tires (sound familiar?) and that non-RFTs are not approved. Does that mean the car will not ride or handle well with non-RFTs?--not at all; check some of the BMW forums and a lot of people sing the praises of having dumped their RFTs.

So, getting back to the Porsche N spec discussion, it would seem that different car makers have their own philosophy of what works best on their cars,sort of corporate dogma of sort,and won't be swayed from that point of view--until they change it themselves. I understand that point of view and appreciate it, with the understanding that their perspective--at least on tires--isn't necessarily the only way to go.

I'm qualified to comment: my daily driver is a BMW 328iX Coupe (E92). The OEM runflats were 'certifiably' absurd... worst.. tire... ever (ride, adhesion, wear, cost). Dumped them as soon as they were worn. Now running 'normal' tires with an inflator kit in the trunk - never better. The entire runflat saga is an interesting example when engineering is compromised by a conflation of legal and risk issues. Buyer beware.

p.s. My wife's old 2005 Mini came with runflats AND a spare-tire donut (!?)

Yep - exactly, got the Potenza RE970AS. Very happy, except for snow traction (not good). On sale at Tire Rack now for $132 each (no affiliation). Best of luck... make sure you carry an inflator kit so you are not stranded in case of a flat.

Quote
jlegelis
Yep - exactly, got the Potenza RE970AS. Very happy, except for snow traction (not good). On sale at Tire Rack now for $132 each (no affiliation). Best of luck... make sure you carry an inflator kit so you are not stranded in case of a flat.

Good to know; there is like a $35/tire differential on the 970 vs. the Mich. AS/3 (+).
Any negatives other than snow traction? How bad is the snow traction?
I'm really looking for a good handling A/S that can handle lower temps and a little white stuff If I get caught out in it before I put the Blizzaks on.

Thee are fine in light snow, only the deep stuff is scary. Off course my wife's 4Matic wagon has Nokian Hakka R's, so the comparison is bit unfair. I'm sure you'll like them 'em as an 'AS' tire.

... is the last of my PCA Tech Articles:

[pedrosgarage.com]

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

... are available here:

[www.porsche.com]

Thanks to jlegelis who pointed me in the right direction.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

1. In the rear, jack under the diagonal braces, where they connect to the sub-frame. This point takes most of the weight of the car all the time and is super strong.

2. In the front, a better place, i think, is the "boomerang" and its 3 bolts, where the sub-frame bolts to the frame rail. Again, this is what supports your car. And unlike the frame rail noted above and by wayne, you wont knock off rust -proofing this way.

These are both VERY safe methods for you and the car, and allows you to place your fixed supports at the optimum, factory points.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I've been raising the front by jacking up the rear, one side at a time, using the prescribed jack points, until the front is high enough to slip a jackstand under the prescribed location.. Then I jack up the rear (already on staggered 2 x 10's), using the centre point referred to by Grant.

In the future, for the front, I'll try the front boomerang point Grant suggests.

Quote
grant
1. In the rear, jack under the diagonal braces, where they connect to the sub-frame. This point takes most of the weight of the car all the time and is super strong.

2. In the front, a better place, i think, is the "boomerang" and its 3 bolts, where the sub-frame bolts to the frame rail. Again, this is what supports your car. And unlike the frame rail noted above and by wayne, you wont knock off rust -proofing this way.

These are both VERY safe methods for you and the car, and allows you to place your fixed supports at the optimum, factory points.

Grant

Do you happen to have a picture of these jacking points?

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

the weight of the car as a lift point.

But as long as the car doesn't crumple when lifted by these goofy spots that's all folks require for proof the chosen lift point is just fine to use.

Obviously the car is quite strong and rigid -- one of the things my research turned up as I was shopping for cars before deciding upon the Boxster -- and strong enough and rigid enough that there appears to be enough margin for folks to use at least some of these unsanctioned lift points without any obvious (and not so obvious) problems, but I still cringe every time someone offers up these points as bonafide lifting points.

Here are 4 photos; 2 front, two rear. One closeup and one to show perspective and positioning.

Note the important part: each jacking points is directly below a structural member that supports the car's suspension. These are points that take the 1000 lb accelerative hit when you strike a pothole. They are effing strong; -- they have to be.

These are not preferred to the factory points, but are used when you want to put your fixed supports (jackstands, blocks, ..) below the real jacking points.

It is possible to lift both sides at once with these, although it wont be perfectly level. At the rear you could go to the middle, but it is NOT as strong. Of course, this is relative, its still strong enough to support the car.

Front - perspective shot:

[i39.tinypic.com]

Front - closeup shot: (note this is exactly where a bolt goes through to the frame-rail; other bolts are similar)

[i40.tinypic.com]

Rear perspective shot:

[i40.tinypic.com]

Rear closeup shot: (note ho this is exactly under the cast sub-frame where it meets the diagonal brace)

[i44.tinypic.com]

I generally use a hockey puck as a protective measure, but this car is slightly lowered. The other car is greatly lowered. i sometimes need two jacks; one to get it up a couple inches using the regular factory spots, the other to slip under these jack points.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I just roll the car up onto a 2x4 and the jack fits under. I find it easier than jacking multiple times.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Thanks Grant for the pictures.