Re: New problem with 2010 Porsche Boxster

Bought this car CPO in November. CPO good through 2016. Saturday, Charley and I were at the dry cleaner, came back to the car after 10 minutes (max) and the battery is dead. Called Roadside Assistance who jumped us, then we took the car up to Jim Ellis for service. I've put no more than 2500 miles on the car since I got it in November.

2 days later (this evening) service guy calls and says that there's a problem with the clutch being "stiff" and that they're going to take it apart tomorrow. If it is "normal wear and tear" they will charge me, otherwise we'll discuss. Wouldn't a check of the clutch be included in a CPO inspection? Is it possible that this guy is bullshitting me? I told him I've been driving a manual for almost 14 years (including track) and can't imagine how he thinks it was something I did. Car has total 33,800 miles on it.

I'd love your opinions/feedback.... Thanks in advance. I have a really bad feeling about my discussion with this guy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2014 08:44PM by Meredith in Atlanta. (view changes)

The battery should have been tested under the CPO. I would try to get them to replace it on their dime. It has a mfr. date on it. If the life is close to the projected battery life (i.e. 48 month battery, etc.), it won't last much longer. Can you use a battery tender? I swear by them.

The real issue for replacing the clutch is... is it slipping? When you accelerate, does the engine rev. with a delay in the car movement? You can feel/hear it slip. If not, the guy is full of it. 33K miles is not a lot of clutch miles for an experienced manual driver. Get a 2nd opinion.

On the stiffness issue, is it difficult for you to push and hold the clutch in? That is the stiffness test for your driving pleasure. That would definitely been an item checked on a CPO. Hopefully, others will chime in on this. Other than a brake and clutch hydraulic bleed, I don't think that there is an adjustment for the pedal pressure.

It seem like this guy make be trying to make warranty work or out of pocket work on you.

Mer, did you find the clutch stiff to operate? If not, I agree with Tony. Before you let them start taking things apart, I'd get a second opinion. 33 K miles is not a lot for a clutch.

I agree with Guenter. If you're happy with the clutch, then why let them tear it apart, if it might be at your expense?

Clutch seems fine to me. Charley agrees. Indeed It's a little stiff, but it certainly hasn't bothered me. It wouldn't have occurred to me to have them test it.

One other clue that I didn't like. When I told him that I just bought the car CPO, his first question was "Who did you buy it from"? I said, "Jim Ellis" (You!). I got the feeling he was out to take advantage of me.

I'll call the head of service and my sales-guy tomorrow.

Thanks again - it's good to have sane friends here to bounce things off of!

My sales-guy came to my side during the entire transaction on Saturday. He really seemed to be concerned about my service. He's been with Jim Ellis for 14 years, mostly with Porsche. In general, I've had no complaints about Jim Ellis Porsche (hello! This is Porsche #5 for me through them!).

I'll update when I know more later on

First, you just bought the car. While they are maintenance items, neither the clutch nor the battery should go unless abused.
I would protest either way.

A stiff clutch - if it is a significant change from new, can indicate clutch wear. As the materials wears the spring arms are at a more acute angle and the pressure to compress them increases. If this is true your clutch is not long for this world - a year? Who knows. But i return to the top: you just bought a CPO car and have a track history of knowing how to drive manual shift cars. Push them to replace it at their cost.

Did you pay for a CPO or not? If so, does it have value? Put it to them. You could have purchased a much cheaper "used car".

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
Tony in Whittier
The battery should have been tested under the CPO. I would try to get them to replace it on their dime. It has a mfr. date on it. If the life is close to the projected battery life (i.e. 48 month battery, etc.), it won't last much longer. Can you use a battery tender? I swear by them.

The real issue for replacing the clutch is... is it slipping? When you accelerate, does the engine rev. with a delay in the car movement? You can feel/hear it slip. If not, the guy is full of it. 33K miles is not a lot of clutch miles for an experienced manual driver. Get a 2nd opinion.

On the stiffness issue, is it difficult for you to push and hold the clutch in? That is the stiffness test for your driving pleasure. That would definitely been an item checked on a CPO. Hopefully, others will chime in on this. Other than a brake and clutch hydraulic bleed, I don't think that there is an adjustment for the pedal pressure.

It seem like this guy make be trying to make warranty work or out of pocket work on you.

+1 on the tender--they are worth the $.

Since you've only put a few miles on the car, if there is an issue with the clutch, you would have to think it predates your purchase. A second opinion would be in order here if the diagnosis persists, preferably an Indy. The sales person should be your advocate on this since he's hoping for future sales and references.

The fact that the dealer service guy brought up the notion that the clutch is stiff to your attention and they want to open it up to "look around" is a red flag. Since you're the one driving the car and have had numerous other Porsches, I think it's fair to say you would have known if the clutch had a issue. Sounds like they are looking for business...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2014 10:08AM by MikenOH. (view changes)

I told him I was disturbed by the call last night from the service guy that I'm dealing with. I explained that I’ve only put (at most) 2500 miles on the car, that I’ve bought 5 Porsches from Jim Ellis. That it is CPO. That the service manager actually asked me where I bought the car (should it even matter?) blah blah blah all the other stuff mentioned in previous posts ^^^

The service manager said they want to take the clutch apart and see what’s going on. I said, “fine, but I’m not paying a dime”. He said that was understood (he said he had a conversation with the Used Car Sales Manager and apparently they came to an agreement).

So, we'll see what he has to say later on! Thanks for all of the great advice!

... that was smart of them.
It was the right thing to do.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

If the service manager stands by his word, I think they're certainly treating you fairly. I can't see a clutch being worn in a couple of thousand miles, specially since you have lots of experience driving an manual.

Hope you get it back quickly ready to go. Yah gotta get it all shined up in 78 days. Can't wait to see your car in person at BRBS.

Bought it with 17k miles on it. Had the car for a few weeks. Complained that the pedal was stiff. They checked the clutch and discovered it was shot. Wanted to charge me for the whole job. I drove to the dealer and requested to inspect the parts. I pointed out that if I had destroyed the clutch in a 3 week period, wouldn't there be bluing of the wear surfaces (there wasn't)? They backed down and replaced it and the fly wheel for free.

I would definitely tell them to leave the clutch alone. If there is a problem that might get worse, you can deal with it later. The only "wear and tear" part should be the clutch surface and that would show up as slipping. I'm not satisfied that your electrical problem is fixed. Your car sat outside in cold temperatures during the snow storm, and you started it no problem. You might have an intermittent current draw from a defective part. My BMW Z3 experienced battery drain when it was still under warranty and it turned out to be a bad switch in the passenger seat motor which would short every now and then.

Quote
Meredith in Atlanta
Bought this car CPO in November. CPO good through 2016. Saturday, Charley and I were at the dry cleaner, came back to the car after 10 minutes (max) and the battery is dead. Called Roadside Assistance who jumped us, then we took the car up to Jim Ellis for service. I've put no more than 2500 miles on the car since I got it in November.

2 days later (this evening) service guy calls and says that there's a problem with the clutch being "stiff" and that they're going to take it apart tomorrow. If it is "normal wear and tear" they will charge me, otherwise we'll discuss. Wouldn't a check of the clutch be included in a CPO inspection? Is it possible that this guy is bullshitting me? I told him I've been driving a manual for almost 14 years (including track) and can't imagine how he thinks it was something I did. Car has total 33,800 miles on it.

I'd love your opinions/feedback.... Thanks in advance. I have a really bad feeling about my discussion with this guy.

The battery in my used 996 quit under CPO warranty and was not covered. A replacement battery failed and was covered under the new battery warranty. This battery lasted just 7 months from new to dead.

Now you might get a new battery under some kind of goodwill. Ask.

A stiff clutch could be a worn clutch. The CPO inspection/check out means the tech found nothing abnormal about the clutch. (I've seen used cars come in and the CPO check finds the car needs a new clutch. In one particular case, a Cayman as it so happens, the clutch was slipping quite obviously.)

I'm not sure what role the helper spring plays -- it could be just to help bring the clutch pedal back to its fully upright position -- but I'd be sure there is no linkage or hydraulic issue that could account for the stiff clutch, if it is indeed stiff.

Absent any signs of slippage, any judder/shudder when taking off from a stop, difficulty in shifting without any trouble, I'd be darn reluctant to replace the clutch. I'd certainly not finance an expedition by the dealer's service department into the clutch. It would be in writing that this work would be on their dime and any thing found amiss would be repaired/covered by the CPO warranty.

..if you mean the one on the pedal, returns the clutch after it is pressed. I had two fail on audis - same part -a spring in a fiber/plastic sleeve.

They are about $20 can you can replace it yourself.

They hjave no impact on clutch performance. Generally when they break, they actually snap and the clutch pedal stays on the floor.

that's what toes are for (temporarily).

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Service guy yesterday said they inspected the clutch and determined there was an issue with "wear and tear" and offered to split the cost of the fly-wheel and clutch replacement - total cost of $3400 which would require me to put $1700 into it. Again, there are 33,500 miles on the car and I've only put about 2500 miles on it.

I'm incredulous. I just called the GM there and explained that I've been driving a clutch for 13 years, including 5 cars from Jim Ellis (4 Boxsters, 1 Miata - the first Boxster was Tiptronic but that doesn't count in the clutch discussion), and when questioned, told him I've never had a clutch problem and never used a valet with this car. Told him I think the CPO inspectors missed something. He seems to understand where I'm coming from so I'm hoping to get a better response later today. I made it very clear that if they expect me to pay, I'll never buy a car at Jim Ellis again.

This all started out with a dead battery....yikes....

... the fact that you are a member of one of the largest Porsche Forums on the Internet and that you openly share your experiences related to your Boxster.
Don't do it in a threatening way, but also invite the GM to join PB as well.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

He and I had a really nice conversation. My husband's friend (also a Porsche fanatic) has said good things about him... so we'll see how it goes!

You had told him that you wouldn't pay a dime and he told you that was understood.

Had he mentioned what agreement he came to with the Used Car Sales manager?

I just can't see how a clutch can go from passing a CPO inspection to being needed to be replaced in 2500 miles. (AND they would have a record of that mileage since they sold you the car.) To me that would mean they didn't carry out a proper inspection. That shouldn't be your problem.

Hope they treat you fairly on this one Mer.

They came through, and I'm very pleased. They also apologized for the hassle. I told the service guy, Ryan, that I would share this news with Pedros Board he was appreciative.

If you're out there Ryan, Thanks again!

Like I was saying:

Interesting and informative entertainment



"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

As for the new shoes. Remember to save a few bucks for the Boxster Bar.

I wouldn;t trust them again.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
I wouldn;t trust them again.

+1; very disconcerting.
They expect you to pay $1700 for something that should have been caught in the CPO inspection, until you bring enough pressure on them to back off? They did the right thing, but only under pressure.

$3400 for flywheel +clutch? anybody know what the parts costs are and std. labor time is to do the job?

..costs around $700-800 for the sachs sport kit, about as good as you will get for the street. I just bought one.

Includes Clutch, Pressure plate, throw-out bearing

Labor? Maybe 5 hours max. 90 minutes tranny out, another 90 minutes tranny in, work, set-up, clean-up.

700+6 ($100) = $1300+ Maybe i'm light, not much.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
..costs around $700-800 for the sachs sport kit, about as good as you will get for the street. I just bought one.

Includes Clutch, Pressure plate, throw-out bearing

Labor? Maybe 5 hours max. 90 minutes tranny out, another 90 minutes tranny in, work, set-up, clean-up.

700+6 ($100) = $1300+ Maybe i'm light, not much.

Grant

Around here the typical dealer labor rate is $130/hr.; six hours sounds right @ $130= about $900. Suncoast retails the clutch kit for $700.
Sounds like they doubled the retail cost to $3400, then cut it in half to give Mer the impression she was getting a deal, when it looks more like retail pricing.
Nice outfit--not.

BTW, Grant, you going to Mid-OH with NNJ?

As usual, i attempt to go to all the NNJR events (save Mosport), but occasionally that thing called work gets in the way. M-O is one of my favorites, so right now its a go.

Looking forward. I think you know Don D, right? (Red Cayman, Blond wife). He has a "new" car. (944 race car)

LRP April 9-10!

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Great--looking forward to seeing you, Don and Vlad.

... as I've been accepted into the folds of the PCA Club Racing Staff as a Scrutineer!
This year I'll be a Scrutineer-wannabe-in-training and next year the real McCoy.
I'm not sure yet which events I'll be going to in 2014.
Originally I was told that COTA would be my first one but I'm not sure yet.
I can't make Watkins Glen because of BRBS so maybe MidOH. You never know.
Anyway, I'll be the one with the white beard and the green shirt.
Oh, wait... I think that's a description of every PCA Scrut
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

For a 1999 Boxster (which should be similar in costs) book costs are:

Part: 987.116.014.00, price $289.29
Labor: Warranty 4.6 hours, Standard 6.2 hours

At $130/hour that's $1095.29.

Of course you have to add parts and labor costs to any other parts you're replacing.

It seems like having you pay "half" would have been quite a good deal for them.

Even $1700 is no bargain. I seriously doubt the flywheel needs replacement, adn my one and only clutch job was $1600 all in (no flywheel).

So you dont need to feel any pressure IMO.

I would also write PCNA and ask whether a CPO car has its clutch checked. You have a right to expect a fiarly thorough examination given the additional cost.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant

I would also write PCNA and ask whether a CPO car has its clutch checked. You have a right to expect a fiarly thorough examination given the additional cost.

I have an older CPO inspection checklist form (8/2006) which states the road test will include "clutch pedal action", pass or fail check mark required.

I guess the new one will feel softer!

Meredith,
Just one word when it comes to dealer service in Atlanta.

Hennessy

Quote
hjk3
Meredith,
Just one word when it comes to dealer service in Atlanta.

Hennessy

Ugh, yeah, I have heard that.... it's outside of the city though. I'll continue to do what I'm doing and rely on y'all and my husband to add to my spidey-senses that something ain't right....

I'm sure you could get a list from Peachstate PCA

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
I'm sure you could get a list from Peachstate PCA

Grant

I don't think they'd honor my warranty or CPO...

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

In any case, work done by an independent shop definitely doesn't void your warranty.

because they are also responsible for being the admin. Not 100% sure.

G

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
Boxsterra
In any case, work done by an independent shop definitely doesn't void your warranty.

Problem with most independent shops is they don't have the computer systems that are up-to-date. I used one for an oil change on one of my previous boxsters and while I saved $$, they weren't able to update my OBC to indicate it was done...

But then again, i dont, so its just a shrug for me.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Check with you local PCA club. They should be able to recommend a good indie. Mine resets everything and even gives me a printout of the codes that showed up.