Re: Tip Service?...

I have been reading the posts lately about tip failure. I have an 01S with 36,900 miles, the transmission has never been serviced. What should I do?
Thank you!

reporting your Trip was acting up.

Chances are it would have anyway, but..., well, maybe not

I'm kind of on the fence on this. On one hand I'm a proponent of more frequent fluid changes. OTOH if something did go wrong...

My info from talking to various Porsche service managers is that a delayed fluid change is about as bad as no fluid change. That is if a Tip is run too long on the original fluid that a fluid change seems to accelerate the Tip's demise though there is really no way of knowing this is true or not. The word I get is that it seems to be quite common an overdue for a fluid change Tip is brought in and the fluid changed and then not too much time passes before the car's back with a sick Tip.

Now one thing to consider is that often times what prompts a Tip fluid service -- especially if one is overdue! -- is the Tip is acting up already. The thinking is just a fluid change is needed. Were I the owner of a Tip equipped car and it started acting up I'd probably 'throw' a fluid service at the thing just in case, though I believe I would have treated to more frequent fluid/filter services than the manual calls for.

Consider this: The Tip fluid doesn't suffer from contamination like the engine oil does so the only thngs that affect the Tip fluid would be a build up of wear particles (which are probably mostly removed/trapped by the filter) and some degradation of the oil's additive package.

Now wear particles build up is primarily a factor of how much the car is driven, the distance it is driven.

Additive package degradation... Due to the very low exposure to contamination I would hazard a guess the primary factor is also the distance the car is driven.

So, this is what I would suggest: Consult your car's owners manual and see if there is a time callout for a Tip fluid change. If there is and if that time has expired or is about to, change the fluid/filter. If there is no callout on time (or the time has not expired), if the change is based on distance traveled and your car ain't there yet, don't have the Tip fluid/filter serviced.

If you want some reassurance on this you might consult with your local Porsche dealer service department and see if Porsche has published a modification to the Tip fluid service schedule. Sometimes Porsche does this and if so you want to know.

Not to sway you, but were the car mine, I'd be seriously tempted -- unless my research into this found it ill-advised -- to have it done just to reduce the amount of particulate matter in the fluid (not all the fluid is removed during a fluid service but a lot is and this helps cut down on the matter in the fluid) and have the old filter replaced with a new one.

Anyhow, along with these positives (though hard to quantify) of the reduction in particulate matter and a new fresh filter, the fluid change would refresh the Tip fluid's additive package. But it is not my car. It is your car, obviously. And your decision. And probably made more difficult by the wishy-washy above. Sorry.

Sincerely,

MarcW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2011 06:17PM by MarcW. (view changes)

Thanks much Marc, I don't go to a dealer for service, I use an indy (he has owned a porsche/mercedes shop for 35 years) Stuttgart Northeast in Danvers MA. The shop owner Jim does NOT push services. In fact, the last two times I went in, I asked for a brake fluid flush and he did not do it. He said I drive the car so little and it stays in a heated garage, so it really did not need it (in his opinion). It seems Jim's style (with me anyway) has been "if it aint broke, don't fix it). But with all this talk of tip failures, it has me wondering.
Thanks again,
Nick

with his comment regarding the brake fluid not needing change. Porsche doesn't qualify its two year change interval for brake fluid by excluding cars that are stored in warm garages.

The fluid reservoir is vented to atmosphere and brake fluid has an affinity for water/moisture. It's going to collect it no matter what unless you store the thing in a dry climate chamber.

If I read you correctly it is going on 10 years old. My advice would be to have the brake fluid changed. If you want, collect what comes out of the brake calipers. I think you'll be surprised at what it looks like. Even if it looks ok it's what you can't see that is the problem. Moisture in the fluid. But after 10 years... I don't think it will look ok.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

LOL, Marc, I was not saying the brake fluid has not been changed in 10 years, I was simply saying that in bringing the car in for other reasons over the past year and asking about the brake fluid, he said is was OK to pass.
I have done annual oil changes regardless of mileage. The brake fluid flush happens every 2 years except this time it has been 3. The air filter, pollen filter have been changed every 2 years (and still looked new). I started this thread asking about the tip fluid as the car is now 10 years old and nothing has ever been done to the tip. Some of the New England Boxster people have seen my car at outings, it is dead mint. I am just a little unsure about the tip. I actually think my leaning is to "service" but not flush the tip and do the brake fluid flush (now that it has been 3 years).
Thank you!

to the office for another hot and heavy round of work.

If you decide to have a fluid service done to the Tip, there is no need to perform a complete flush of the Tip's fluid. A simple 'change' of the fluid with a new filter is sufficient for a Tip fluid service. This means a considerable amount of the old fluid remains mainly in the torque converter. But this is not bad. AFAIK none of the Tip fluid service steps I've come accross call for the entire hydraulic system be drained. The only fluid that is removed is what comes from opening the Tip drain or removing the bottom sump plate to get access to the filter.

To change or not change the Tip fluid? I would have in the past said 'change it'. Now I'm not so sure. If it was mine I'd change it. But if it were mine and something went wrong, I could live with that. In your case, if I advised you to change it and something went wrong....I could still live with it, but I wouldn't like it.

However, there would be no way of knowing if the fluid change caused the problem. I could (and would) point out that the Tip would have had to be pretty sick (which is unlikely in your car's case since the transmission is not showing any symptoms of being sick) for a partial drain/refill of the proper fluid to send the thing over the edge.

So, we're right back where we started. You asking 'change it?' and me saying in short 'maybe'.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

and results in only about a third (3.5) of the fluid being replaced. So you are restoring additives, reducing some of the particulates, but not putting a shock to the system like you would if the tranny was given a complete flush (9). I did mine at 42k. Fine at 70.

I was just thinkg about starting a thread like this. I bought my 2000 S Tip late last year with 100k miles on it. Minimal service records except for the most recent previous owner but the car seems to have been a daily driver. No leaks under the car and the Tip seems to work just fine. The car got a new RMS last summer so the Tip was R&R'd to get to the seal but no service was done. I've heard the theory about leaving neglected high mileage automatic transmissions alone because you're likely not going to make them work any better and might create new problems so I don't know what to do. The local Porsche shop advised against a service mainly because it was expensive and it would be unlikely to make the car work any better than it already is. I don't mind spending the money but I'd hate to start something that eventually leads to more trouble.

That's ZF tranny. ZF says to service them every (80k?) kilometers. The fluid must be the right fluid - Porsche, Audi or Esso (spec is on ZF's site).

Service means:

1. drop pan
2. clean
3. replace or clean filter
4. refill (its a bit of a pain, must have run through the gears off the floor and be up to temp, whcih you read with a scan tool or a remote IR gun (grant's cheating way))

You will lose about 35%-50% of the fluid. Most of it will remain in the TC and the channels. This is important. if you flush out 90% or 100%, it is generally too detergent and you can cause troubles. OTOH, regular servicing tends to lead to longer life and better shifting - this from teh Audi world where failures are far more common.

So yes, service. No, dont flush. Yes, use OEM fluid.

I have a 5HP24a in my Audi.

Grant

How long do you plan to keep the car?
More frequent changes are an investment in longevity.
If you plan to sell in a year or two skip it and save your money.
If you plan to keep the car another four or more years I would change it.
The fluid is ten years old. My experience with lubricants is that they age and deteriorate over time. I've asked Porsche mechanics what they would do if it was their car. They tell me they would change it.
You will notice smoother shifting after the change. Make sure you use a Porsche approved fluid.
I change the transmission fluids on my cars at 30,000 miles. I owned a Mercedes 300D with original motor/transmission that I sold with 360,000 miles on it.