OIl floats on top of the water. After the engine is shut off the oil and water -- which were...

Hi all,

I am looking to purchase a new Boxster S - 2005 or 2008. Both have low miles (25,000kms) and have had oil changed every 5000kms. The 2008 is the Limited Edition pumpkin and is mint. The 2005 is a regular Boxster S and is also mint. I will be checking for IMS and RMS issues with the 2005 prior to purchase if I went that route. If purchased, I would perform the IMS retro in order to avoid issues. Given the 2008 is more $$$ and newer, would I be better off with it? Have there been any improvements with the 2008 that would make it a better, more robust automobile? Would I be just as good with the 2005 (apart from the $$$ in my pocket)? Kindly advise.

Cheers!

Sorry to pester howver I may be making a deal over the next couple of days and your advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Get the 2005 S. Its a no brainer.

Just kidding. Buying is a personal choice and it would be hard to 'advise' you on a course of action. At best, you would receive opinions and at the end of the day, your opinion is the only one that matters!

Best of luck. I'm sure you will enjoy which ever car you pick.

Make sure to upload some pics when you get it home!

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Quote
jjspike
Hi all,

I am looking to purchase a new Boxster S - 2005 or 2008. Both have low miles (25,000kms) and have had oil changed every 5000kms. The 2008 is the Limited Edition pumpkin and is mint. The 2005 is a regular Boxster S and is also mint. I will be checking for IMS and RMS issues with the 2005 prior to purchase if I went that route. If purchased, I would perform the IMS retro in order to avoid issues. Given the 2008 is more $$$ and newer, would I be better off with it? Have there been any improvements with the 2008 that would make it a better, more robust automobile? Would I be just as good with the 2005 (apart from the $$$ in my pocket)? Kindly advise.

Cheers!

Just a couple of things that I see about these two cars.

The 05, with only 25,000 km hasn't been driven much - less than 5,000 km / 3,000 mi / year, so any potential problems might not have had a chance to surface while the car was under warranty. Also, cars that are not driven much tend to have more problems with seals drying, batteries not being kept charged and therefore tend to have more problems.

The 08 has had more regular driving in the 7 - 8,000 km / year range, which is better for the car in general as noted above. Also, it would still be under full manufacurer's warranty for another year or two, depending on purchase date.

Just a couple of things to weigh in the decision making.

Good luck with it. You'll love the car when you get one. Let us know and we'd love to see pictures.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

Another big difference is the S vs the Base. It doesn't sound as though that is a big factor for you. For some, it is. Besides power and braking, some of the difference are mainly cosmetic. It could also be a difference between 18 inch and 17 inch wheels, but you may never utilize either to their fullest as is. Some also say the ride to the S is a bit harsher due to an uptick in performance. Finally, if money is not an issue, then some like to say buy the newest car you can afford. Like Guenter says, the '08 has some warranty left in it, but it has further to depreciate, as well. The '05 depreciation has been absorbed by the current owner.

One other final, the Orange is rarer, but at the same time the color could hamper your resale effort in the future. I think it may have come with more or special cosmetic options (black wheels, no?), so if that eye candy floats your boat, another tic in that car's boxes.

Some would kill for such a decision. Good luck with which ever you choose.

... in both iterations: Base and "S".
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

because I often am. But I think I remember reading somewhere that MY06 and newer engines are not candidates for an "easy" IMS bearing replacement. The crankcase has to be split to replace the bearing - due to a re-design of that end of the engine.

Bill

I was told by a Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo mechanic that the IMS issues are purely due to changing the based on Porsche's specification (15,000 miles). The leads to water and fuel in the oil in the bottom of the block where the IMS sits. He stated up an down that this is the issue and not the design of the bearing. He told me to walk away from the car if the oil changes were done based on Porsche's spec. I found out today that the first change was done at 5000 miles, the second at 11,000 miles and the latest (current mileage) has been done at 17,000. The mechanic told me that this car will have no IMS related issues. He also said that he has seen similar issues in non-Porsche cars with similar lucrication schedules.

He will be doing a full PPI (including checking of the oil filter) tomorrow and if all is well, this is what I will be picking up - see pics.

Thanks for your help!!


Side by jjspike, on Flickr


Front by jjspike, on Flickr


Rear by jjspike, on Flickr


Cockpit by jjspike, on Flickr

I have been reading IMS failure reports for several years now and have never seen any definitive correlation between IMS failure and anything. I see three possible explanations for your mechanic's opinion: (a) he is drawing a conclusion based on his extensive exposure to IMS problems; (b) he is secretly Karnak the Magnificent; or (c) he is talking out his @$$. Since IMS problems are rare and your mechanic is not named Johnny Carson, I suspect (c). I suggest you contact Jake Raby and ask him. I'd take his opinion with a grain of salt as well, but at least he deals frequently with the problem and is a lot better qualified to comment than your mechanic. Or, you can ask your mechanic to put his money where his mouth is, and give you a full IMS warranty for 4 years. Fat chance of that!

I tend to agree with that theory being bunk. From personal experience, I purchased my Boxster S new in July 2002. A year later, I had the oil changed during the regular, annual check up (less than 9K miles). Three months later, with only 10,001 miles on my car, the IMS went.

Also, if there was water in the bottom of the block, wouldn't that "float" on top of the oil? Not sure how fuel and oil react. Also, wouldn't both fuel and water eveporate as the engine heats up?

combined into a homogenous mixture much like oil and vinegar are when the salad dressing bottle is shaken vigorously -- these two fluids start to separate, stratify into layers. If the engine sits long enough there will be a thin layer of water at the bottom of every oil sump/depression that is deep enough to hold even a droplet of oil. Since the water as it is mixed with the oil combines with water soluble compounds in the oil that are the product of combustion chamber blowby some of these compounds when mixed with dissolved into water means the water becomes an acid.

Wherever this water touches metal or rubber or anything else in the engine the corrosion begins its nasty work.

One would think the water would be boiled away from the oil and it is to some extent. However, the engine oil may not get that hot or get that hot long enough and this is especially true when the car is used for short trips (or even long trips in cold weather). Also, everytime the engine is started and run water in blowby gases works to replenish the water that was removed from the oil from the previous engine running.

The only way to 'totally' remove the water and unburned gas and the acidic compounds is to drain the oil and refill the engine with fresh oil.

Lastly, any water and gas that are in the oil work to lower the oil's viscosity with the risk that under some operating conditions (high temp/high load which often occur at the same time) the oil may not be able to prevent metal to metal contact.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Quote:

"and this is especially true when the car is used for short trips"

This is why short trips are so bad. And why low mileage *may* (or may not..) mean little or even be a negative.

And its why oil drain intervals need to be much shorter with a car driven little. Think about it - a car driven 5 days/week 2 x 15 miles trips = 30 x 5 x 52 or 7800 miles per year, A car driven 2 days/week for 2 miles each way per day will have much more retained water and resulting acid. Much harsher. But this occurs with only 4 x 2 x 52 = 416 miles per year. So, it may require oil changes every 208 miles or so.

OK, i took it to ridiculous (or is ti?) extremes, but that's how one tests a hypothesis - vary the independent variable and see what happens.

Just pointing out a rally nice, little essay and a gem buried within.

Grant

the manual tells you to start the car and drive away. This is bad advise driven by emission control. Start the car and let it idle for a minute or two while you arrange yourself before you put a load it. This gives the oil time to remove any condensation they may have formed in the heads. Nitrates from combustion and water from nitric acid. 90% of all engine wear comes from cold starts. That's why all those test showing where taxis or long haul trucks or cops (none have a lot of cold starts in relation to the mileage) can go so long without an oil change are meaningless.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Thank you. I will drive it like i should be driven and not worry. It is only a car (nice one though).

You probably made the wiser choice with the '08. I just read about another '05S that bit the dust at 16K miles. The poor guy bought it used at 11K miles and thought he was getting a pristine example to use for many years to come. Of course, he's been left high and dry by Porsche. There's a list of engine failure reports over on planet-9.com. So far, 23 victims have checked in, with most failures occurring in 2007 or earlier Boxsters and Caymans. However, there is an '08 Boxster S that failed at 26K miles and high oil consumption issues are surfacing on newer Caymans, including '09s.

So rather than continuing to revel in the misery of others, what are your constructive and workable solutions

If you want to see a solution, go over to P-9, where a growing list of victims are heading to NHTSA with complaints. And, rather than continuing to act like a shill for PCNA, what are your solutions?

Thanks....that's what I thought

Not much to check on IMS. If you can detect it, the motor's dead (guy above notwithstanding).

If you're doing the LN IMS upgrade ( a good idea in my personal opinion, having done it) - checking becomes even less important.

No major changes 2005-8. Big change is 2009 with DFI and no IMS.

These cars are really quite durable if well maintained - so my personal opinion is buy the one that's significantly cheaper.

Unclear if both are S models with 3.4L motor. Your choice on whether that's a big deal for you. On road i don't care. On track neither is nearly enough :-) Nah, the weak link is always, and always will be, me.

I do think oil changes are important. I dont think that anyone can explain the IMS issue beyond " its sealed and ought not be"

Grant

Oh I don't know that it can't be detected. Maybe not today. But there are people who are trying very hard to prove that IMS bearing failure can be detected in the early stages and the engine saved in enough time that only the IMS bearing needs replacement. They are using a many decades proven approach.

There is a difference in the 2005 engine and the 2008...just price the IMS bearing replacement to see the impact of the design changes. I'd just as soon have a well used 2005 and spend for the LN bearing.

I would trust a mechanic who deals with the internals of the M96 engines in the hundreds per year. A Lambo mechanic...not so much.