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| Balance Shaft Failure Kiki - Saturday, 6 August, 2011, at 11:53:27 am |
Hi,
I would appreciate any help anyone can give me re the following:
I own a 2005 2.7L 987 manual Porsche Boxster with a M96.25 engine which I had for a year with no problems until just after I had the 40000km service with a Porsche dealership in Australia. Seven weeks and 1000km after the service I was driving when I heard a clunking noise. I stopped the car and when I got out I noticed what I thought was oil trickling out near the back passenger side rear tyre. I realised the car could not be driven and had it towed to the dealership. When the tow truck operator was putting the car onto the truck a huge amount of oil came rushing out from under the car.
When it was investigated by the Porsche dealership I was told it was most likely a broken balance shaft and that I needed at minimum to recondition the engine or more likely a new engine. I was told they could not explain exactly what had occurred or why there was a huge oil leak unless they investigated further. Instead of proceeding with further charges I chose the new engine option which they explained as an exchange engine from Porsche in Germany with a 2 year warranty. In the meantime the dealer took the gearbox out anyway to get a better idea of what happened and told me that the balance shaft had actually cracked and broken but the casing was intact so they could recondition the engine or I could get the exchange engine but they still had no explanation for the oil leak. I stuck to the option of the exchange engine and the dealer went ahead with the work.
I picked the car up yesterday to find that as I was driving into my driveway, having driven approximately 20km from the dealership, the check coolant indicator came on. I called Porsche Roadside Assistance to investigate and they advised in writing that the coolant level was far below the sensor level and that there was also no visible sign of oil at all in the the oil well in the boot of the car (I'm not sure of the technical term) and that the car could not be driven. NB There was no oil or coolant leaking from anywhere that the road assistance tech could see.
Questions:
1. Should the dealer have noticed that there was a potential problem with the balance shaft when it was serviced at 40000km? Is there anything that would indicate this was about to happen?
2. Why did all the oil leak out of the car when the balance shaft broke?
3. Is there any reason apart from a lack of quality assurance that the oil and coolant would be so low given the engine had just been replaced and I was charged for coolant and oil?
4.How much damage could have been done to the engine in the 20 km that the car was driven with little oil and coolant?
Thanks so much in anticipation of your help
Kiki
I would appreciate any help anyone can give me re the following:
I own a 2005 2.7L 987 manual Porsche Boxster with a M96.25 engine which I had for a year with no problems until just after I had the 40000km service with a Porsche dealership in Australia. Seven weeks and 1000km after the service I was driving when I heard a clunking noise. I stopped the car and when I got out I noticed what I thought was oil trickling out near the back passenger side rear tyre. I realised the car could not be driven and had it towed to the dealership. When the tow truck operator was putting the car onto the truck a huge amount of oil came rushing out from under the car.
When it was investigated by the Porsche dealership I was told it was most likely a broken balance shaft and that I needed at minimum to recondition the engine or more likely a new engine. I was told they could not explain exactly what had occurred or why there was a huge oil leak unless they investigated further. Instead of proceeding with further charges I chose the new engine option which they explained as an exchange engine from Porsche in Germany with a 2 year warranty. In the meantime the dealer took the gearbox out anyway to get a better idea of what happened and told me that the balance shaft had actually cracked and broken but the casing was intact so they could recondition the engine or I could get the exchange engine but they still had no explanation for the oil leak. I stuck to the option of the exchange engine and the dealer went ahead with the work.
I picked the car up yesterday to find that as I was driving into my driveway, having driven approximately 20km from the dealership, the check coolant indicator came on. I called Porsche Roadside Assistance to investigate and they advised in writing that the coolant level was far below the sensor level and that there was also no visible sign of oil at all in the the oil well in the boot of the car (I'm not sure of the technical term) and that the car could not be driven. NB There was no oil or coolant leaking from anywhere that the road assistance tech could see.
Questions:
1. Should the dealer have noticed that there was a potential problem with the balance shaft when it was serviced at 40000km? Is there anything that would indicate this was about to happen?
2. Why did all the oil leak out of the car when the balance shaft broke?
3. Is there any reason apart from a lack of quality assurance that the oil and coolant would be so low given the engine had just been replaced and I was charged for coolant and oil?
4.How much damage could have been done to the engine in the 20 km that the car was driven with little oil and coolant?
Thanks so much in anticipation of your help
Kiki
| Welcome to the board Kiki ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Saturday, 6 August, 2011, at 2:53:55 pm |
... I'm sorry to hear about your car troubles.
I'm not sure what you Aussies call the "balance shaft" in a Boxster engine.
The M96 engines have 5 shafts:
• Crankshaft (which drives all 6 pistons in and out)
• Left Bank Intake Camshaft (which drives the intake valves on the left)
• Right Bank Intake Camshaft (which drives the intake valves on the right)
• Left Bank Exhaust Camshaft (which drives the exhaust valves on the left)
• Right Bank Exhaust Camshaft (which drives the exhaust valves on the right)
• Intermediate Shaft (which as it name implies is an intermediate shaft driven by the crankshaft and in turn drives the camshafts through a system of sprockets and chains)
But from the description you gave above I would suspect that it was an intermediate shaft (IMS) bearing failure which can cause the intermediate shaft's sprockets to jump some teeth on the chains thus causing catastrophic engine damage.
Anything can fail in an engine without warning.
Probably there were no outward signs of anything wrong when you had your car serviced at 40,000 Km.
If it was the IMS bearing that failed, oil will escape the engine.
When the tow truck tilted the car backwards much more oil would have poured out as well.
On a newly installed engine, there is no other reason other than lack of quality control that would have allowed the owner to drive away with an engine low on fluids.
It also depends how much fluid the engine actually had.
If they didn't properly bleed the air out of the cooling system, this could have caused the coolant light to turn on when a bubble of air moved into the expansion chamber.
If that was the case, again, not much damage if any would have been caused.
If you didn't see the temperature go high or a temperature warning light, most likely the engine will be fine.
I would demand an explanation from the dealer and even demand an extra year of warranty if they don't replace it again.
I would also look for another dealer to take care of the car.
Good luck.
Please keep us posted.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2011 02:57PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
I'm not sure what you Aussies call the "balance shaft" in a Boxster engine.
The M96 engines have 5 shafts:
• Crankshaft (which drives all 6 pistons in and out)
• Left Bank Intake Camshaft (which drives the intake valves on the left)
• Right Bank Intake Camshaft (which drives the intake valves on the right)
• Left Bank Exhaust Camshaft (which drives the exhaust valves on the left)
• Right Bank Exhaust Camshaft (which drives the exhaust valves on the right)
• Intermediate Shaft (which as it name implies is an intermediate shaft driven by the crankshaft and in turn drives the camshafts through a system of sprockets and chains)
But from the description you gave above I would suspect that it was an intermediate shaft (IMS) bearing failure which can cause the intermediate shaft's sprockets to jump some teeth on the chains thus causing catastrophic engine damage.
Anything can fail in an engine without warning.
Probably there were no outward signs of anything wrong when you had your car serviced at 40,000 Km.
If it was the IMS bearing that failed, oil will escape the engine.
When the tow truck tilted the car backwards much more oil would have poured out as well.
On a newly installed engine, there is no other reason other than lack of quality control that would have allowed the owner to drive away with an engine low on fluids.
It also depends how much fluid the engine actually had.
If they didn't properly bleed the air out of the cooling system, this could have caused the coolant light to turn on when a bubble of air moved into the expansion chamber.
If that was the case, again, not much damage if any would have been caused.
If you didn't see the temperature go high or a temperature warning light, most likely the engine will be fine.
I would demand an explanation from the dealer and even demand an extra year of warranty if they don't replace it again.
I would also look for another dealer to take care of the car.
Good luck.
Please keep us posted.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2011 02:57PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)
| Re: Welcome to the board Kiki ... mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Saturday, 6 August, 2011, at 4:59:01 pm |
The phrase "no visible sign of oil at all in the the oil well in the boot of the car" would worry me. Since you have no dipstick, and weren't told to use the electronic oil level feature, I'm not sure how they could say that.
But in any case I'd be asking lots of questions and asking for (as Mark suggested) a longer warranty in writing even if the extension was from the dealership and not Porsche of AU. You paid enough for the new engine and should expect long service from the replacement engine well beyond the 2 year warranty.. That long term reliability may or may not have been compromised by the early cooling and possible oil problem which couldn't have been "your fault". I'd worry a lot if it was truly no (or extremely low) oil in the engine after the installation especially with no cooling anti-freeze and if so, I'd insist on still another replacement engine.
But in any case I'd be asking lots of questions and asking for (as Mark suggested) a longer warranty in writing even if the extension was from the dealership and not Porsche of AU. You paid enough for the new engine and should expect long service from the replacement engine well beyond the 2 year warranty.. That long term reliability may or may not have been compromised by the early cooling and possible oil problem which couldn't have been "your fault". I'd worry a lot if it was truly no (or extremely low) oil in the engine after the installation especially with no cooling anti-freeze and if so, I'd insist on still another replacement engine.
| Re: Welcome to the board Kiki ... Kiki - Saturday, 6 August, 2011, at 10:13:36 pm |
Thanks for your answers.
Just to clarify a couple of points:
When I was driving into my driveway after returning from the dealership the check coolant level warning message came on but the car temperature gauge was fine. It was when my husband had a look at the actual level of coolant in the well in the boot that he noticed there was almost no coolant in the well. He then checked the oil well out of curiosity and there looked like there was no oil at all in that well. Again not sure if well is the correct term but I mean the container in the boot on the drivers side where you put coolant and oil in the car. The oil well was actually completely dry there was not even any visible film of oil on the sides, lid or the nozzle that you pull out. So we called the Road Side Assistance who sent out a technician who confirmed that it looked like there was no oil put in the car and that the coolant was very very low. He said there must be some oil in the car otherwise we would not have gotten the car home but he could not see any oil in the well either and given there was no oil or coolant leaking from anywhere he suggested the Porsche dealer did not put the correct amount of fluids in the car when they replaced the engine. When he tried to check electronic oil level on the dash the coolant warning message came on before the oil level indicator showed. To be extra clear I only got a message coming up on the dash warning that the coolant was low. At no time when I was driving home did I see any message warning that the oil level was low to non-existent.
Thanks again!
Just to clarify a couple of points:
When I was driving into my driveway after returning from the dealership the check coolant level warning message came on but the car temperature gauge was fine. It was when my husband had a look at the actual level of coolant in the well in the boot that he noticed there was almost no coolant in the well. He then checked the oil well out of curiosity and there looked like there was no oil at all in that well. Again not sure if well is the correct term but I mean the container in the boot on the drivers side where you put coolant and oil in the car. The oil well was actually completely dry there was not even any visible film of oil on the sides, lid or the nozzle that you pull out. So we called the Road Side Assistance who sent out a technician who confirmed that it looked like there was no oil put in the car and that the coolant was very very low. He said there must be some oil in the car otherwise we would not have gotten the car home but he could not see any oil in the well either and given there was no oil or coolant leaking from anywhere he suggested the Porsche dealer did not put the correct amount of fluids in the car when they replaced the engine. When he tried to check electronic oil level on the dash the coolant warning message came on before the oil level indicator showed. To be extra clear I only got a message coming up on the dash warning that the coolant was low. At no time when I was driving home did I see any message warning that the oil level was low to non-existent.
Thanks again!
| Re: Welcome to the board Kiki ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Saturday, 6 August, 2011, at 11:49:00 pm |
Thanks for clarfying Kiki.
You souldn't be able to see any oil whatsoever at the oil fill tube (under the yellow cap)
Your car only has an electronic gauge to measure oil quantity, but it does monitor oil pressure.
If there weren't any oil in the engine when you picked it up, you would have seen a red warning light on the dash.
Also an engine with no oil eould not have driven that far, so I don't think that you have an oil issue.
Regarding the empty coolant reservoir, as I stated before they could have left a bubble of air trapped in the system that when run could have disloged and emptied the reservoir.
But the coolant system holds ovrer 20 liters of coolant.
The warning light you got was for low coolant level, not empty coolant which would have made the engine's temp to rise dramatically triggering another warning light.
After your clarification I'm not as concerned about your new engine,
Just make sure that they determine that the oil level is correct and that they do a pressure test on the cooling system.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
You souldn't be able to see any oil whatsoever at the oil fill tube (under the yellow cap)
Your car only has an electronic gauge to measure oil quantity, but it does monitor oil pressure.
If there weren't any oil in the engine when you picked it up, you would have seen a red warning light on the dash.
Also an engine with no oil eould not have driven that far, so I don't think that you have an oil issue.
Regarding the empty coolant reservoir, as I stated before they could have left a bubble of air trapped in the system that when run could have disloged and emptied the reservoir.
But the coolant system holds ovrer 20 liters of coolant.
The warning light you got was for low coolant level, not empty coolant which would have made the engine's temp to rise dramatically triggering another warning light.
After your clarification I'm not as concerned about your new engine,
Just make sure that they determine that the oil level is correct and that they do a pressure test on the cooling system.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Welcome to the board Kiki ... mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Sunday, 7 August, 2011, at 9:17:56 am |
Back in the days when Boxsters had mechanical dipsticks, you could visually tell just how far down into the engine the oil would pool after a fill. Now you can't. As Pedro says, none would be in the tube that leads from the filler cap/lid down towards the engine after you had run for a while as gravity would have it down in the engine. That tube runs perhaps the length of your arm. Which is not to say that I wouldn't use the electronic gauge to measure it for a few trips.
That it didn't overheat now sounds like just a anti-freeze top off, and "burp" the system is needed and no probable damage. Could have been as simple as a loose cap/lid. Or a lose connection between the filler tube and the engine...or any other coolant connection...insist they pressure test the system.
I'm not so sure why the service responder would have used such alarmist terms given your description of what you observed. Thanks for the update.
That it didn't overheat now sounds like just a anti-freeze top off, and "burp" the system is needed and no probable damage. Could have been as simple as a loose cap/lid. Or a lose connection between the filler tube and the engine...or any other coolant connection...insist they pressure test the system.
I'm not so sure why the service responder would have used such alarmist terms given your description of what you observed. Thanks for the update.
| Re: Balance Shaft Failure db997S - Monday, 8 August, 2011, at 8:35:43 am |
Sorry to hear of your problems. If it was the IMS, then the oil can leak out if the "bolt" brakes away from the engine block creating a hole for the oil to leak. I had a nice little puddle and my oil guage inside the car was a complete blank.
As far as oil, how much did you end up having to put int the car? I'd charge your dealership for it, at their rate, not at your purchase price. I think I'd also complain to your version of Porsche Cars North America. Something tells me that the person who filled the car with oil put what goes in a typical auto, not the massive amount that goes into these cars. I'm sure it's not the first time its happened, either.
As far as oil, how much did you end up having to put int the car? I'd charge your dealership for it, at their rate, not at your purchase price. I think I'd also complain to your version of Porsche Cars North America. Something tells me that the person who filled the car with oil put what goes in a typical auto, not the massive amount that goes into these cars. I'm sure it's not the first time its happened, either.
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