In military aircraft, we called this a 'chip detector.' It works. *NM*

Any one here in this board buy this supposedly "angle" device? I don't have access to the article describing the technology so I am not sure it is worth it.

Thanks,
Tony

... for a unit to be installed in my car.
I believe the technology is sound, but I want to test it, as I do everything before I recommend it personally.
If it performs as well as advertised.
I will let you know my findings.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Pedro, given what mikefocke wrote, how are you going to test it? It appears to be detection device. If you install one in your car and your ims never sheds ferrous, you won't know if it works or not. Also, I wonder how many false positives it will generate. That is, folks with some tiny amount of metal that is not ims-related who then get their ims replaced. (btw, for guys my age on the board, that is the current issue being discussed about PSA tests.)

... installing one in my car and testing a second unit on the bench.
I will take a known amount - 1 Liter of Mobil1 at operating temperature (200F) and with flow.
I will insert the sensor (connected to a 12V source) and will start adding metal to the oil to see when the sensor goes off.
Once it does I will weigh the metal that went in (weigh the remaining of a known amount) to determine how much material sets it off.
I'm sure that Jake has done this already, but I like to fiddle with tests myself.
This technology has actually been used in helicopters for many years.
Since Jake Raby had been involved with military aircraft, he knew of the technology and has worked with it.
He decided to refine it and redevelop it so that it would work in the Porsche M96 engines.
I had known about his tests and development for quite a while, but since I had signed a non-disclosure agreement, I was not at liberty to disclose anything.
Now that the first units are being shipped (mine have been shipped already) you will soon start hearing more and more info.
Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Why would you need to sign a NDA?

PB members rely upon (and support) your objectivity. As such and particularly on such a hot button topic, it only benefits you to re-confirm your objectivity on said product; especially based on what many/most consider to be "gorilla marketing" / snake oil salesmanship by the adapter of this known military technology. You have no vested interest in the product as either an investor and/or existing/potential reseller, right? You're an authorized/recommended installer of his/their IMSR but this VERY high margin and controversial item is worthy reaffirmation of no vested interest IMNSHO.

.... and in those years I have never recommended a product or service that:
a) I didn't truly believe in, and
b) I hadn't tested and/or used in my own car
From day 1 I've said that I like the technology behind this product.
It was developed by the military for military aircraft where it's been used for decades.
If I find that this is a product that I think will benefit the members of this community, not only will I recommend it, I will also offer it through my website as an added service.
That's what happened with the IMS Bearing. I looked into it, tested it myself, determined that it was a good product for the community and became an authorized reseller.
I haven't blindingly offered or recommended other products from this or other developers.
You may not agree with the developer's marketing approach (which as you may have noted, has been absent from this board) so you are free to use it or not.
Either way, I'm putting my reputation on the line one way or another.
Happy Porscheing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

There is so much discussion and concern over risks associated with the IMS.

I do not see a new bearing or a detection device as the end all, be all to 'solve' the issue. It is simply nice to have options to consider as opposed to waiting/worrying about a failure and the pending financial consequence.

That being said, I don't know if I'd incorporate the device in my car, just as I have not run out and replaced the bearing. Why and value? Price and value.

I have a 2000S with right at 100k miles. The maintenance is up to date and the car is great. I figure the car is worth about $11K if I wanted to sell this week.

Scenario 1. Do nothing and suffer and IMS failure that requires an engine replacement. Value of car with bad engine is $4K. Loss is $7k. or spend 6K on replacement motor and get the car back on the road and the car is still worth $11K, maybe a bit higer depending on work performed.
My cost is either 7K (do nothing) plus the cost of a replacement vehicle or $6K motor replacement. Ouch.

Scenario 2. Proactively replace the bearing. Due to labor costs in R/R transmission, I'd throw in a clutch and a flywheel (if needed), even though I have no evidence that I need either. I estimate that I'd be looking at least $2K, perhaps a little less if I did the work myself. Again, my car would be worth about $11K.
My cost is the price of the repair, but I have a car that has a new bearing and new clutch.

Scenario 3. Add detection device as insurance (if it is determined to be worthwhile), and replace when there is evidence that a replacement is required.
Financially, this is very similar to scenario #2, except that I may never have to replace the bearing (at least not till I need a clutch).

My cost is in the hundred of dollars, say $500, and I will not be replacing components until required.

$500 to protect a $11K investment souds like a marginally reasonable approach. Again, The device must be demonstrated to provide adequate warning, otherwise it is worthless.

If the device is worthwhile, the more your car is worth, the more reasonable it seems to be to consider its installation.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

and that is the likelihood of failure. If someone offers you a $500 insurance policy against deep sea submersion damage you probably wouldn't buy it even if your car was worth $1 billion.

I like your analysis except that you left out an important Scenario #4 which is that you wait until you are already replacing the clutch and replace the IMS at that time. The additional cost is small and the chance of engine failure due to the IMS is tiny.

Furthermore, a determination of "worth it" has to consider all of the alternatives, one of which is to buy IMS insurance, which any smart insurance agent will sell you for cheap since the aforementioned likelihood of failure is negligible. In that case, your cost is the lowest of all choices.

And how would the insurance company know how to price the insurance since only Porsche knows the frequency?

My scenarios were base on action, not inaction.

Risk analysis is based on two components; likelihood and consiquence. The component that is difficult to quantify is likelihood and hence, the topic of endless debate on this and other boards. The consequences of failure is more easily quatified as the high cost of engine replacement.

I agree that replacement of the bearing while doing the clutch is a great idea....just have to need a clutch first. Thing is, I've never had to replace a clutch in ANY car I've ever owned. Furthermore, having owned my car for 3.5 years (had 76K miles at purchase), I don't know when or if the clutch has ever been replaced.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

TIP cars don't replace clutches like manual cars do. And some clutches last 200k miles or 12 years (or more). So there are lots of people who will never get "free trans R&R" to do the IMSR and so their only option is to figure the IMSR as expensive either in their own labor or in shop costs. Not to mention how much more expensive an IMSR is on a TIP equipped car.

The problem is we don't know the true statistical frequency of failure so we can't judge the wisdom of either detection or replacement from any scientific/mathematical perspective.

So while we can apply some logical thinking to the detect or replace decision, I always come back to tolerance of risk. If you will be devastated emotionally or financially by the event happening to you and you paying for repairs/replacement, then you think one way. If you wouldn't be (and might even think of it as an excuse to upgrade the engine) then you think another way. Each way is the right way for that person and maybe not for the other guy.

Probably a bit over $1000 all in. But vs $400 just to tell me i'm in deep doo-doo it seems like a better deal.

Of course i had an early clutch failure.

Grant

Quote
Burg Boxster
Why would you need to sign a NDA?

Regardless of your opinion of the sales tactics used by Flat6 (which I happen to share, I have called it out on babblers.org) no business should enter into a working relationship; consulting, evaluation, potential reseller, and certainly a potential competitor, without an NDA.

Pedro is one of the most objective resources I've seen on the boards, but that doesn't preclude him from developing a TechnoIMS Alarm If I were Flat6, I'd have an NDA in place before sharing details with Pedro or anyone else.

....what the heck is it really detecting (particulate matter in oil is not uncommon) and then, if it goes off, what are you going to do about it on the side of a road somewhere.

Helicopter engines are different beasts, and their chip detectors give a high number of false positives, for which little if any repairs are needed, and there are always military mechanics close by to check things out. They don't have a profit motive, either.

The cost analysis by dghii is most apropos.

I didn't see the first part of your post: "Why would you need to sign a NDA?".
When I heard the first rumors about the project, it peaked my interest.
I called Jake and asked him about it.
He said that he would gladly tell me about it if I signed an NDA.
That's SOP for any business which develops technology.
I've done it a few times myself with Technolab/PedrosGarage.
I saw no harm in it, and my intention was never to rip him off or to steal his idea.
He explained in detail what he'd been doing and how he'd been testing it and I asked him to keep me posted, which he did regularly.
When the first units were ready to be shipped he informed me and I purchased three for installation in my car and further testing.

Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

yes, you could devise simulations. But it seems to me that the only way to truly test it under actual conditions is to have an IMS failure.

not planning one of those are you?

Grant

Jake let a few people in on his work to get advance opinions. In my case it was via a series of emails. I raised questions and concerns early on when he shot me several paragraphs of description and a picture or two. Why not get him to consider some questions/needs/mods early on in the product development cycle? Don't we all benefit from many viewpoints affecting product development? I know one of my major concerns was considered in the design even though he felt he had tested that aspect and didn't feel it necessary.

He asked us to not disclose so that his patent application would not be compromised. I felt it a very reasonable request. I also knew that Pedro had been read-in as Jake said as much. The non-disclosure period lasted much longer than any of us envisioned. I've been through the patent application process...a slow one due to the funding (or lack thereof) of the Patent Office.

I felt it didn't compromise my ability to state an opinion in knowing a bit early about the product (remember product reviewers often get advanced info) and I wasn't asked to advocate for the product nor would I have participated if I felt that was expected. I suspect Pedro would feel the same. I've stated my opinions elsewhere ... that it is one of the options you have and none are necessarily right for everyone.

A test I was told Jake was doing was inserting a known early stage failing bearing into a good engine and detector-equipping the car and then observing just how much more degradation of the bearing occurred before the alarm went off. So he was willing to risk a good engine in testing that the idea, used for decades in helicopters, would also work on Porsches.

Those who don't want to buy the thing have many options. It all comes down to your attitude towards risk and we are all different in that regard.

But I think we all benefit when information and opinions are freely shared in a courteous manner. And when products are developed that give us options.

There was lots of online discussion of the detector idea in the 996 forum on another site. Hundreds of messages and perhaps 20 from Jake. Nothing definitive till the Excellence mag article came out.

("read in" is a term from the security world where you are given information on a program after you have obtained the specific clearances to possess that sensitive information.)

That is a bogus reason. The patent application is not compromised if he came up with it first. If he didn't then his application wouldn't be granted anyway.

work on the first to invent and file theory, some operate on the first to file principle...and the US is going that way in March of 2013.

When I investigated obtaining a patent for a product for my company in multiple countries, I discovered we had to play by multiple rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_to_file_and_first_to_invent

and the patent info filed is public info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2011 05:07PM by Boxsterra. (view changes)

I find it common for a lawyer to tell an entrepreneur to have everyone sign one. FWIW, I'm still rolling the dice on my '03 996, but I want to hear from people who buy these things.

1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson

you can google it. tons of info.. I am not sure I am allow to post the link or anything.

it is designed by flat6 innovation.
Tony

A kit which uses electronics connected to magnets in a oil drain plug replacement to detect when an item internal to the engine is shedding ferrous bits using a technology long used in the Military aircraft industry. Covered in a Nov '11 article in Excellence magazine. Supposed to be user installable in ~2 hours.

flat6innovations.com

My position is that even if it works 100% of the time, it is not worth it. It makes at most a 0.5% difference in the likelihood of your engine failing. And there are other equally likely causes of engine failure so it doesn't even help the paranoid sleep at night.

Save your money.

In aircraft it's a different story as you are likely to die if there is engine failure and the cost of the unit is infinitesimally small compared to the cost of the vehicle.

Jake’s IMS Detection Device Comments

Here is how I understand the issue...

The problems are two: you have a possible bearing/lubrication failure and you only check every so often.

There is a window...at the point the seal has broken down and the bearing itself starts to wear in its race because it is no longer effectively lubricated. At this point the bearing starts to get rough and then to shed parts of the bearings into the oil but the bearing in total is not wobbling enough YET to cause the shaft to wobble to cause the sprocket to wobble to cause the chain to jump to cause the valves to mistime to cause catastrophic valve-piston clash failure.

IF
· you happen to do your inspection of the oil filter or magnetic drain plug or camshaft deviation at this time and see the debris or deviation
· and understand it
· and get the car immediately flatbedded to someone who can remove the transmission and replace the IMS bearing while also removing/cleaning the oil pan and thus removing debris from the system lest it clog one of the little oil passages and you got all the particles

THEN
· you can most probably save the engine.

But if you miss that window or miss the symptoms or debris has gotten into one of those passages...BOOM!

The possible solutions I know of to not have an engine destroying failure (if it occurs) are: get a much better bearing/lubrication-method or check all the time and replace when needed.

The possible solutions to having to pay out of your pocket if the engine destroying event should occur are: prevent that from occurring by replacing the known-suspect lubrication-method/bearing or buy an expensive “Extended Warranty” (if one is available and if it actually pays out).

Of course only a very small percentage of the seals/bearings fail when measured on a car/year basis. No one knows the exact percentage. Which makes economic analysis of the various options somewhat difficult.

When I first heard of the “detection device”, I recognized its methodology as being that long used in the aviation industry. Therefore the theory had wide application experience. I’ve known people whose lives were saved by the cockpit warning system using the same technology used in flat6’s detector. But I had questions…

Could the metal bits that trigger it come from anything other than the IMS bearing? Could an alarm persuade you to replace the IMS bearing but the triggering metal really be from some other source? Jake said no other wear part within the engine is from the same type of metal.

I said it needed an audio alarm as the light was buried over off to the side of the driver’s vision. Jake said it has one.

I said it looked like the drain plug it used stuck down too far below the pan (the original drain plug was almost even with the oil pan for a reason) and risked being torn off when driving over debris. Jake said he’d consider a skid plate if that concerned people but he had been driving with one for 6 months on both track and road with no problems.

A later thought was would it detect failure of an LN ceramic bearing? I think the answer is no (not that we have seen any LN bearing failures yet).

What would happen if you installed the detector after the bearing had started to fail? He said he actually did that with what he called a stage 1 or 2 failing bearing he had removed from a customer’s car and put into one of his own and got a quick failure warning in time to save the engine before the bearing got to stage 4.

Compare the detector to a magnetic drain plug or just checking the oil filter contents? The problem with the plug or filter check is you check them so infrequently. The detector is always looking for you.

So the options are (to me):
- You could spend ~$400 and 2 hours of your labor to detect a starting-to-fail IMS bearing
- You could spend ~$200 in parts to use Pelican’s replacement bearing kit (assuming it is finally released) (plus tools and labor) and still have the type of bearing Porsche used in the first place
- Spend ~$700 in parts to use LN’s bearing kit (plus tools and labor)
- Or take your chances with your current bearing.

The detection kit has the advantages in labor of being external to the engine, do-able by most of us without special tools and less expensive in parts (assuming Jake can find a way to make more since his initial production run is sold out).

The other option, to me is to get the LN bearing installed if the chance of failure worries you and if it fits in your clutch repair cycle. Using the LN part seemingly solves the problem as opposed to just detecting it and then you having to spend the money for the IMS bearing replacement if a failure of the original Porsche bearing is detected. But it is much more expensive than the detector…for most of us 4 to 10 times as much. But the probability of failure is relatively small.

To me, either of the two bearing replacement kits are probably best installed by someone with a lift and the ability to remove a transmission. Plus if I don’t like the idea of a doctor performing a procedure inside me as the first one they do, why wouldn’t I want someone who had already done a dozen IMS bearing replacements to do the IMS install on my engine and that means I pay $$$$ for labor. Yes there are people who have done it themselves, but I see many stories of someone who tried and didn’t do it right because they just didn’t follow the directions or didn’t have the mechanical aptitude or buy/rent all the tools needed.

If you have a TIP, then the detector is the much more affordable option as the labor for a TIP equipped car IMS installation is much more expensive.

So assuming my theory/guess of ~1% per engine/year failure rate on the IMS, would it be a good idea to install the IMS bearing failure detection device? I go back to my “your risk tolerance is different than mine” feelings. Only you can tell…for you.

I'm glad we have the option we didn't have 6 months ago.

Any idea how many hours or miles from the time that the seal may start to breakdown to the time that the bearing/stud might get critical? I'm guessing Jake has an idea.

If you had an idea of what that interval was, you could drop your oil filter every --you pick the mileage--and even drop the magnetic oil plug (have a clean one ready to put back in) and evaluate both for metal shavings. The filter takes just a few minutes to drop, remove from canister, examine and put back in the canister or replace. Just a thought..

how long between what Jake calls stage 1 and 4. But lets just say it is 500 miles for discussion purposes...would you really want to pull an oil filter every 500 miles? And don't you have to spread out the filter to see any particles? And pulling a magnetic drain plug means all the trouble of catching the oil and refilling the system. Ugh. I always thought 3k was bad enough.

My memory is he detected trouble on his test stage-1-failure bearing pretty darn quickly after he started testing with it in his engine.

I really have no link to Jake other than we exchanged several emails back a few months ago so if you want his opinion, I'd suggest visiting another forum where he is welcome/active and asking him there.

then there is no need for the device at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2011 09:53AM by Boxsterra. (view changes)

Mike:
I'm sure it would be difficult to estimate what the time/mileage line is between where the first wear starts on the IMS until it gets to the critical point of near failure, given differences between oil change intervals, driving styles and the OEM components/installation on the individual car. Jake is in a position to make a guess on this given his access to engines and IMS set-ups and would presume he's done a fair amount of testing to evaluate the process of failure in order to come up with this new product.

Obviously, 500 miles between the initial shedding of material and IMS failure isn't enough time for the typical owner to do any preventative analysis of the filter or oil. OTOH, Boxsterra's hypothetical 5K miles is certainly enough for most owners that change their oil 1-2 times/year and drive in the 5-6K range which I think is fairly typical for these cars in the US ( based on the reliability survey that the board poster has been doing for a few years now).

My thought is that if the mileage threshold is closer to 3-5K than 500 miles, the owner would be in a position--if they are so inclined--to do the investigation on their own via oil changes/analysis and filter examination to determine the status of the IMS. Dropping a filter and inspecting a one takes less than half hour; my last mechanic did this with a small magnet which he ran through the panels of the filter to make sure he didn't visually miss anything.

The IMS Guardian seems like a thoughtful approach to predicting the IMS failure, so that the resultant catastrophic engine failure can be avoided. I'm just not so sure that an owner that uses appropriate oil, changed at more frequent intervals, combined with examinations of the oil and filter for metal shavings would have any less piece of mind of what was going on in the depths of their engine.

There is a big difference in probabilities between an assumption of 5k and one of 500.

Since the test Jake said he ran was to go from a known stage-1 failing bearing to detection and since it was triggered in less than 500 miles, I'm thinking the interval between detectable and BOOM may be much less than 5k based on the theory that the bearing shed enough to trigger the detection in a few days normal driving and shedding at that rate it would seem to me that the bearing would get to the wobble stage pretty quickly. The rougher it got the faster it would wear and the more it would shed and the more would get into the oil passages. My 500 miles may be off by a bunch but I'm thinking it is probably some much smaller number than the 5k. So do you want detection in the first 100 miles of beginning failure or at the 3k interval when you inspect the filter or drain plug? If the interval is shorter than your drain and inspect interval, you could lose an engine. Or if luck is with you and you happen to catch it in time...

Your $, your car, your choice of how much risk you want to assume and how much risk avoidance you want to pay for.

and during that time it sheds metal that can be detected by looking at the filter.

When I changed my IMS bearing at 110k, it had a tiny bit of play, not much. There were plenty of metal pieces in the oil filter. I don't think I dodged a bullet. I'm pretty sure I could have driven another 50k+ miles without anything bad happening.

Regardless, the amount of risk is extremely low based simply on the number of cars that have been afflicted compared to the number sold and this is supported by all publicly known evidence.

One of the big questions being debated here is not risk tolerance but how much risk is actually averted with this device. I say none.

What do you suggest Boxster owners do to be proactive in regard to IMS failures?

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

1) Check the oil filter for pieces of metal when doing oil changes. If you don't do your own oil changes, explain your concern to the mechanic who does it and have them check.
2) When replacing the clutch, check the IMS bearing for play and replace it if needed.
3) Don't worry. With these precautions there is an extremely low possibility of IMS failure.

Simple.

How about I'll send you $400 if you agree to pay to replace my engine due to an IMS failure during the rest of my ownership?

Just kidding, of course.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Didn't mean it that way...just in fun.

My apologies.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

How about you send me the cost of engine replacement and I'll send it back to you with interest if your IMS fails?

It would be better than the market...

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

If you check when the clutch is out ( very what, 40-100k?) you've rarely catch it.

I agree its good to check, btu then continue and replace it when you're in there.

i understand your statistical concern over a $400 sensor. But your counter-arguments make some pretty wild assumptions about the ease of detecting a wearing bearing, and the interval between when you can feel play (damn near dead) and when it goes kaboom.

I would never count on such infrequent inspections. I think its much more sensible to suggest one plays Russian roulette, and maybe hedge with a total replacement when the clutch is out. if the failure rate is say <5% most people would be winners, on an e(value) basis using the empty chamber game.

Grant

... for every Boxster/Cayman/Carrera owner as we have seen from the previous discussions.
There may be some people who can catch a failing bearing before it destroys their engine, I did.
I caught it when my clutch was replaced.
Some people may be lucky to find chips on their filter and catch it in time.
But for people who do not change their own oil and for those that don't inspect their filter, this is a viable product.
They won't have to rely on a tech's assessment of their oil filter if they even inspect it.

I'm installing one in my car tomorrow for two reasons:
1- I need to have first-hand knowledge of the product
2- I track my car regularly. Under track conditions a bearing can deteriorate very quickly and I'd like to have some warning.

I have been asked privately if I am endorsing the IMS Guardian.
I've also been asked what my association with the product or it's manufacturer is.

The answer to the first question is:
I like the concept and the premise and will be installing them to whomever asks me to.
I liked the idea since I first heard about it. I think that it can offer peace of mind to those who obsess over an RMS bearing engine failure.
I will also be conducting my own simulations and will keep everyone abreast of my findings.

The answer to the second question is:
I have no affiliation other than having requested and having been approved as an authorized reseller and installer.
Neither my company nor I was involved in the design, development, manufacturing or marketing of the IMS Guardian.

I always applaud entrepreneurship especially when it involves solving a problem on or enhancing our cars.
I wish Flat6Innovations and Jake Raby much success with this product.

Happy Porscheing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

and those were hard miles, many of which were on the track. You also check your oil regularly and inspect the filter every time.

Additionally since you have a ceramic bearing in your car, the IMS detector won't work.

I applaud and support entrepreneurship as well. But that doesn't mean that I'm willing to buy any product that anyone can come up with for any price. Careful scrutiny and Q&A such as this topic help clarify what people might expect from the products. There have been many entrepreneurs with products of no or questionable value. If you don't believe that, I have a Turbolator to sell you.

... the IMS Guardian, but the IMS bearing is not the only bearing in the engine which this detector can alert the user when it starts to fail.
This piece is a metal chip detector that will alert you in case of any unexpected ferro-chips in the oil.
My engine blew at 203,000 miles while on the track (at Sebring).
It cost me a pretty penny.
Maybe the IMSG could have alerted me before all hell broke loose inside.
We'll never know, but for me, the investment in the IMSG is worth it.
IIRC the LNE IMS bearing is a hybrid bearing, meaning that it has silicon nitride balls, but the inner and outer races are still made of steel.
If the races in the new and improved LNE bearing start to chip, the IMSG should detect them.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Jake and I exchanged on this subject.

I see he defines 4 stages of failure. At stage 2 the bearing is shedding. At stages 3 and 4 the engine has ingested enough bits that the entire engine must be cleaned/flushed/rebuilt.

He says he got detection in 20 minutes after installing a stage 2 bearing that was already rough/shedding. That would imply to me that once the bearing starts grinding itself to death, the process of getting to stage-3/4 is pretty quick in at least some cases.

that proceeds geometrically faster as it progresses...

That's why i don't think careful checking every 5-7k miles will be very helpful, unless it just begins to break down after say 6,900

Grant

Which say that the breakdown is linear and it takes a long time to degrade. This jives with every case I've heard about including my own.

I have a healthy skepticism for "but this is different, really".

Now on to what little data we have.

I have no idea what you mean by "biased". Who's going to be biased?
Most people have no clue when it started - only when it goes bang.

So i doubt much real info exists.

So i presume that like most failures it starts slowly and accelerates over time.

note that sorta supports "happens over a long period of time" except that the metal flakes stage is likely to be short, and that's the part we can observe, or measure, maybe.

Grant



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 06:48PM by grant. (view changes)

The wear rate of bearings, both properly lubed and without proper lubrication is a linear function. The exact function depends on the type of bearing and the exact configuration.

For people who find a little wobble in their bearing, their car is not about to explode. The wobble increases very gradually over time and the number of metal flakes deposited is constant (as that is directly correlated with the amount of wear).

I would be willing to believe that at the point where the bearing is so far off spec that there is a massive wobble, the wear rate increases dramatically. But my point is that flakes are detectable without any special tools looong before failure (tens of thousands of miles).

If the IMS failure detector requires that you are in the final throes of the bearing before it activates that is a flaw of the detector since it is easy to detect the condition long before. I believe that is what was previously referred to as "stage 2" but since that term was invented by Flat6 I don't know its definition.

Further, since the IMS is not the only bearing that can wear and deposit flakes, the IMS detector will tell you that there is a problem but unfortunately, you have to remove your transmission to discover whether or not the problem is the IMS.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 08:23AM by grant. (view changes)

The effect of improper lubrication (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) is a higher level of wear but it is still directly proportional to the same variables.

as tolerances increase and the bearing becomes less smooth wear accelerates. on all wearing surfaces. always.

The parts in the bearing become more smooth over time. In some applications this causes the bearing to wear more at first and less after a break-in period.

Here is a typical graph of bearing wear rates:

[i42.tinypic.com]

according to your graph, which agrees with my point from the beginning. The demise occurs quickly after a long, slow period of normal wear.

Grant

I'm not an expert, and I don't know what you mean by "linear" but it is hard to imagine that as the failure progresses and the bearing wobbles more and more that the damage wouldn't accelerate. My seal was visibly undamaged at around 50k, but the lube was gone. The wobble was barely noticeable and there were no metal particles in my filter. Since the failure consists of multiple phases, I.e. seal deterioration, lubricant leakage, bearing and race wear, with the phases overlapping and interdependent, it would seem that the failure might progress at different rates at different times, which does not meet my definition of linear.

I'm a helicopter pilot. 7000+ hrs flight time in 18yrs. Every type of helicopter I've flown in those years was fitted with "chip detectors" aka IMS Guardian.
Placed in tail rotor gear box (1+light), main rotor gear box (2 both lights) and engine(3 only 1 light).
Some are checked during scheduled inspections with no "idiot light" .
Most do have "idiot lights". These "chip plugs" are placed where oil collects/pools or near vital bearings if possible.
In my career I've had numerous chip lights come on all of which did had a piece of metal in them, this did not mean we changed the gearbox or engine out. It's just a warning. If you got a number in a row even with fresh oil, now you had a problem and reason
to ground the helicopter for further inspection because something is breaking up in there.
The aircraft I fly now (Astar 350B3) has a very close tolerance engine. Get an engine chip light in this machine and you land NOW ! Flight manual even tells you to shut the engine down in flight and perform an auto rotation !!! Regardless what your oil pressure/temp
is reading.

So my $700,000 turbomeca engine relies on an oil pressure gage and light, a oil temp light, 2 non-light chip plugs and 1 idiot light chip plugs.

Engines fail for a number of reasons, a chip plug is not the 100% answer. It is however something I re lie on everyday while hanging 150ft off the trees on the end of a long line at 9000ft with nowhere to go but down.

Lights are checked everyday during preflight.

I don't think I'd get in a helicopter without functioning chip plugs. So therefore I feel I should apply the same logical to my car.(2004 550 SE)

The technology is simple and proven. Will it alert me of every possible reason an engine fails ? NO. But it covers a lot of bases and is primarily used to check/cover/alert for bearing failures.

Order placed.

It's worth it if you think it's worth it. IMHO, for me, it's not worth it. I can see how it can be an absolute requirement for aircraft, as if the engine fails up in the air, the aircraft is going down, but on a car? Come on! If I have to go so far as putting in an engine failure warning device in my supposed high quality brand name car, then the car sucks. There's too many other cool cars out there that wouldn't need such a ridiculous warning device. I'll keep driving my Boxster, and if the engine really does crap out due to an IMS failure, I'll sell it as a roller and won't buy another Boxster.

Unlike at least one person would have us believe, Porsche engineering is fantastic. It's a wonderful car that many most of us drive rather hard, and the real problem is with somewhat cowardly Porsche marketing and legal not being willing to give any fuel to the American litigious system.

Probably a sound business decision , but Porsche would much better serve their customers if they published some explanation, statistics, and offered up some advise.

I'm on my fifth Porsche and second Boxster (first one was in the middle of the slipped sleeve range), and I will think long and hard about ever purchasing another.

... as with most things in life, especially politics, we're divided on the issues 50/50.
Beating this horse to death is not going to make things any better.
Those that have made up their minds, have made up their minds and probably won't be convinced otherwise.
Half of us think the IMSG is a viable product while the other half of us believe it's not.
Now, having said that, and not trying to convince the nay sayers, I personally believe that, for my car and the use I give it and my peace of mind it is worth it.
I've installed one in my car and I hope I never hear the warning or see the red light except when I test the system, but if I do, it'll probably save me a bunch of money of which I am short of.
I've also ran some tests myself, all of which have been to my satisfaction, and became one of the authorized resellers and installers of the IMSG.
If you want additional information, please feel free to contact me directly.
I'll be posting pictures and explanations on PedrosGarage.com soon.
Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Debate, discussion, and different viewpoints are all good for the community IMO.

makes perfect sense in an aircraft, given the downside of what happens when an engine fails while not on the ground. Since the technology is being used in aircraft successfully, we should also expect it to work in an application in an application like the IMSG, assuming proper testing has been done.

Having said that, the notion needing a device like this, provided by an aftermarket supplier, on a $50K+ car sold for it's reputation for engineering excellence, is--for me--a bit over the top. It almost smacks of the stuff you'd expect to see in a SNL skit.

I guess my bottom line is is that if I think I really need one of these in my 987 for piece of mind, I'm obviously driving the wrong car.

in my 2000S with 100k miles, given the cost of your car over mine.

IMS IS an issue in these cars. I live in a town of 50K people. I work at facility with about 1000 employees. I know of 8 Boxsters on base, including mine. Two out of the eight have had failures, one a 2001S with 58K miles, the other, a one owner 2003 base with 37K miles. I recognize the data as a small sample set but it have my attention. When I consulted my local Indy prior to purchasing my car, one of the first things he mentioned the potential of the bearing failure and what kind of expense the failure would result in.

I do wish that this device was less costly as it represents a little less than 4% of the value of my car, which as insurance, makes is borderline expensive.

One of the issues with our cars is that the cost of a replacement engines is very expensive. I think this device would be useful in preventing a costly repair, just like my coolant gauge and oil pressure idiot light, both of which provide warning against a potential costly repair.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

2 out of 8 cars had engine failures for reasons unknown. It is unusual for diagnosis to go much father than catastrophic failure. For all we know both cars were run with no oil. To jump to the conclusion that the problem is the IMS is -- even scoring to the people who profit from your believing this -- a bad bet.

statistically questionable.

But scary.

Yes, there are many ho label everything a IMS.

Yes, there are cases where the root cause is not known.

These are not those cases.

Oh, and Porsche paid a good part of both and acknowledged it was IMS in both cases.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Both were original owner; dealer serviced; out of warranty.

2nd one PCNA provided motor. Customer paid $5k install. Dealer said "no". I frankly told him to make a big case of it, in writing, to PCNA.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

The 2001 was repaired by local Indy. The 2003 was repaired by a south Florida dealer (spring 2011) where the car was purchased new. Porsche picked up the cost of the engine.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

A thought on that:

--The 987 requires the engine to be pulled and the case split to replace the IMS, unlike the 986 in which the IMS can be replaced with the engine in place. This makes the proposition on doing the IMS considerably more expensive labor wise; while you're in there I'd expect the chain tensioners, that oil pump piece and possibly the lifters would also be replaced, raising the equipment price.

I'm guessing the cost that this would be well north of $3k--way cheaper that the $15k replacement--but a lot more expensive of just doing the IMS by dropping the tranny. So, essentially, the small light would be alerting me to get ready to spend big bucks on on yanking the engine to fix one clearly defective part and preemptively others that have a history of failing. If I really thought that was a possibility of it happening, I'd just move the car and get into something that doesn't require an after-market early warning system.

I'd like think (fingers crossed ) that Marc and Pedro's experience with high mileage cars indicates that if they are driven and maintained a certain way--even with the smaller single row bearings--that these cars will hit 200k without a IMS "event".

Quote
MikenOH
I'd like think (fingers crossed ) that Marc and Pedro's experience with high mileage cars indicates that if they are driven and maintained a certain way--even with the smaller single row bearings--that these cars will hit 200k without a IMS "event".

What we have seen, in general, is that cars that are driven, Vs cars that are not, tend to have less issues.
I would not go out on a limb and say that since Marc and I got over 200,000 miles out of our IMS bearings, most cars will as well, but we have driven and maintained both of our cars for many, many years.
Marc has done most of his almost quarter-million miles on our Interstate System, many of my miles (40,000) have been at different road courses running the car very hard.
Unfortunately, most Porsches, as a general rule, tend to not be driven as much as they should.
Perhaps that's one of the reasons why people get so upset when they have a failure.
If an engine fails at 200,000 people say: It was time. you got your money's worth.
If it fails at 20,000 then it's the manufacturer's fault because you didn't get your money's worth.

I had an engine failure at 207,000 miles.
It wasn't due to the IMS bearing though (lack of lubrication on Cylinder 6) but even at 207,000 miles it really hurt, to the tune of over $4,000 plus in parts only!
I have to watch my money as most people do and I'll do everything that I can to try to prevent having to replace another engine, without changing my driving style or habit.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Just for grins, I ran the idea of what was involved/recommended in splitting the case to replace the IMS on a 987 by a couple of Porsche mechanics and the consensus was while you're in there , do the typical wear items.

Depending on which pieces parts were chosen to be replaced, this gets to be a very expensive proposition since there are a lot of wear items which would be a problem and need to be "upgraded' while you're in there. Lifters, timing chains, oil pump, rod bolts..the list goes on.

Essentially, what you get into is a engine rebuild, which based on some labor estimates and whether you use an indy or dealer mechanic is going to get into the $5-10K range, depending on how many "wear" items you want to replace, assuming a nice clean bore to start with.

So, getting back to the proposition of what you do with the info when your IMSG glows:

On a 986, you replace the IMS and probably do the clutch/RMS while he's in there--Cost:$2-3K??.
On a 987, the engine is split, the IMS is done with the clutch/rms and then you get into deciding how much rebuilding you want to do to replace known problematic areas of the motor--Cost:$5-10K/( a guess on my part).

From my perspective, the 986 approach and price tag is eminently doable and makes perfect sense to keep the car on the road a while longer without a major initial investment; you just hope the typical "wear" items not serviced don't give up the ghost and undo what you've just done.

On a 987, you could end up approaching what the cost of a crate motor cost (which includes the factory warts and all) if you you're looking for a long term fix using, better than factory components. Essentially, the 987 setup forces the owner with a glowing IMSG to make choices which range for expensive to very expensive.

My take away--as a 987 owner-- is that this system does make sense on a 986, but makes less sense on a 987 because: of the additional cost involved --potentially a rebuild cost--and 2) the 987 has a thicker IMS shaft and larger bearing ( which would presumably provide longer life).
I guess what I'm saying is that I would rather believe the 987 IMS is sufficient to function while I'm using the car as I have and doing all the necessary maintenance necessary to keep it in one piece, then spend the $500 on the IMSG to tell me to call the bank and extend my line of credit. What reinforces that opinion is that on other board--the Cayman board in particular--there are plenty of reports of engine failures due to oiling problems at the track, but very few related to IMS failure. I'm not saying it doesn't happen and these cars aren't as old or have the mileage of many 986's, but you really don't hear of the IMS issue on the 987 relative to the 986 experience.

... I'd like to see what other cars can try to keep up with a well-driven Boxster.
I bet you that those that can keep up will cost at least the same, if not more than the Boxster.
On a straightaway my grandmother can go fast. All it takes i=s a big engine and a heavy right foot.
Where it gets tricky is:
a) trying to stop it on a nickel (any car can stop on a dime). Of all of the production cars made, the Boxster stops in the shortest distance from 60 mph.
b) maintaining speed through the turns.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

It's kind of humorous to describe Porsche engineering as "fantastic" in the same thread where people are discussing a device to detect the imminent destruction of the engine. But forget the IMS issue, tall people can strike their heads directly against the roll bar in an accident in the 986 models. The problem would have been immediately obvious had Porsche bothered to test their own car with drivers who are 6'-4". Never heard of such a problem in a lowly Chevrolet. Sorry, I can't call that fantastic. On the street, dozens of cars can do what Porsche does and for a lot less money. But Porsche does have fantastic styling and marketing department.

You're correct, and it's even more laughable that a very tall person would buy a 986, or any car for that matter, without trying it on first. The odds of potential failure of the engine, for whatever causes, is the real issue, along with the value of a magic box.

I'm sorry, I never had bought a car that would kill me in a rear-end collision, so I have to admit my laughable ignorance. How foolish of me to forget that it was my responsibility to identify the manufacturer's defective design prior to purchase. So now I have added, "Slam my head backwards into the seat to make sure I don't hit something that will smash my skull open" to my new car checklist. Thanks for educating me, shorty.

Having been rear-ended three times, once in my 1999 Boxster, I do indeed check my head position against the seat, head rest, or whatever might be back there when considering a car for purchase. If memory serves me, my 987's head rest is positioned is in a better position than my 986. Using the same seat position, the head rest is closer to the back of my head. Ditto with my Subaru. In looking at a car to buy, if I noticed that the back of my head would hit metal, it's a no for sure. But, then not everyone has been rear-ended and considers that in their evaluation of a car's safety.

1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson

Your most welcome.

Sorry no car manufacturer can guarantee you won't injured in you get rear ended, but good luck with your recovery

Gary, I have recovered from my rear-enders. Two were minor - just some headaches, but one (10 years ago) left me with a herniated disc and occasional back problems. Thanks for the get well note.

... GIANTS.
I'm 6' 1" and my head comes nowhere near the roll bar.
Even with my helmet on I still pass the broomstick test.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

but with short legs and a long torso.

I like to drive with the seat front up giving me thigh support with the back slanted back. In that case, my head would contact the roll bar solidly should the head jerk back. Enough so I felt I had to adjust the 986 seat down and forward in city driving for safety as opposed to where I wanted it for comfort. On long interstate trips I felt I could adjust for comfort.

It isn't just the height but the proportions and preferences.

i don't pass the broomstick test. or didn't choose to take a chance on either the regulation or my safety. I put in the brey-krauss bar (required at LRP, VIR, others...)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... too high.
Mine has the adjustable height lever, which I keep at the lowest.
About a year into ownership I also removed a little foam from the bottom which made it perfect.
But for me the roll bar was never an issue I worried about.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I had my Boxster seats as low as they would go, because I had to in order to fit in the car. The car has not been built that I don't drive with the seats in the lowest position. The problem in the 986 Boxster is not the height of the bottom cushion, the problem is that the seat back does not extend high enough. Hence a tall person can fit comfortably in the car but unless you tip your head back, you have no way of knowing that your head would hit the roll bar in an accident. My Cayman has much taller seats, to the point that the top of the Cayman seat is probably 2-3" higher than the top of my head, which is a difference of 4-5" over the Boxster seats. Since the seats are equally tall in the 987 Boxster, I also have no problem with safety in that model, either. Only the 986 models have this particular engineering defect. BTW, this has been a fairly frequent topic on the 986 forum. Short people, who are able to buy any car with a sunroof and don't have to stoop to go up and down staircases, just wouldn't understand.

except of course in a straight line. let's stay south of $100k US --> Honda S2000. vette. lotus. Help me here.

Braking is simply without peer. Handling near so - limited only by tires and, if you choose, lowering for less weight transfer.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com