Passenger side window not descending/ascending when opening door

Greetings all. By way of background, this is a rather big post for me. I used to own a 99 Boxster but had to sell it about 3 years ago. While I owned the vehicle, I used to frequent these boards often. The community was awesome and was always there to help.

Which brings me to why I am back. Last week I was able to re-enter the Porsche ownership club when I bought a speed yellow 2003 Boxster I got a great deal but, as is the case with many "great deals" there are some small issues. As such, and if I may, may I begin to beg assistance from the best Boxster community on the net

1. The passenger side window does not descend or ascend when opening the door. With the top down, you can imagine this causes some big problems. Ironically enough, when the top is down and the window is already completely descended, when you close the top and engage the latch, the window automatically ascends. Any ideas?

2. When driving in excess of 72 or so, the vehicle vibrates. Nothing excessive but definitely noticeable. I have not noticed the car pulling in any direction.

3. [The Biggie and I will paste from an email sent to someone else]

Quote

The 2003 Boxster (base) has approximately 56,000 miles and was purchased in Green ville, SC. When I purchased the vehicle, nothing seemed amiss aside from a faint burning oder (much like when a space heater is turned on following a long period of non-use). When I brought this to the sales person's attention he assured me the vehicle, especially the engine, had been checked and everything was fine. I bought the car.

I drove the vehicle home and aside from some vibrations when going above 75 mph, it drove fine. When I got home here in Raleigh, I let it rest and then about an hour later, I took it out for another drive. It was during this drive that the CEL came on. It should be further noted that the vehicle runs fine.

I have subsequently determined that specific CEL error is P0430 ...

So there we have it. I want to thank all of you for any potential help you can provide. Hopefully I will be able to assist others once I get back into the Boxster swing of things again

Kind Regards,
Matthew

My guesses are:

1. ??
2. Tires out of balance. Might be motor mount, if vibes only happen around 3000 rpm
3. ???

The window not dipping most likely is the micro switch in the door.
If it doesn't work from neither the inside nor the outside it probably the window regulator.

The vibration at speed sounds like the front tires need balancing.

P0430 is a code referring to your catalytic converter. In my experience a cat never goes bad on its own.
There's always an issue with the car that causes the failure.
Therefore these error codes are difficult to solve and generally require a tech with the right equipment and know how.

Happy Boxstering
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

If the vibration is more "seat of the pants," it could more likely be one or both rear tires. These cars have sensitive steering and taut suspensions, so even the slightest imbalance can be transmitted to the driver/passenger. Keep in mind there could be balance issues both front and rear. Tire roundness ought to be checked and the Hunter Road Force machine is the way to go for that.

By my recollection in consideration of the gearing, 72+ mph in 5th gear seems a little high for the vibration to be coming from the often discussed 3k rpm engine vibration. Two things in that regard, however: front motor mount and/or the need for a throttle body cleaning.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2011 09:16AM by Laz. (view changes)

Quote
mnchstrcityblues79
Greetings all. By way of background, this is a rather big post for me. I used to own a 99 Boxster but had to sell it about 3 years ago. While I owned the vehicle, I used to frequent these boards often. The community was awesome and was always there to help.

Which brings me to why I am back. Last week I was able to re-enter the Porsche ownership club when I bought a speed yellow 2003 Boxster I got a great deal but, as is the case with many "great deals" there are some small issues. As such, and if I may, may I begin to beg assistance from the best Boxster community on the net

1. The passenger side window does not descend or ascend when opening the door. With the top down, you can imagine this causes some big problems. Ironically enough, when the top is down and the window is already completely descended, when you close the top and engage the latch, the window automatically ascends. Any ideas?

2. When driving in excess of 72 or so, the vehicle vibrates. Nothing excessive but definitely noticeable. I have not noticed the car pulling in any direction.

3. [The Biggie and I will paste from an email sent to someone else]

Quote

The 2003 Boxster (base) has approximately 56,000 miles and was purchased in Green ville, SC. When I purchased the vehicle, nothing seemed amiss aside from a faint burning oder (much like when a space heater is turned on following a long period of non-use). When I brought this to the sales person's attention he assured me the vehicle, especially the engine, had been checked and everything was fine. I bought the car.

I drove the vehicle home and aside from some vibrations when going above 75 mph, it drove fine. When I got home here in Raleigh, I let it rest and then about an hour later, I took it out for another drive. It was during this drive that the CEL came on. It should be further noted that the vehicle runs fine.

I have subsequently determined that specific CEL error is P0430 ...

So there we have it. I want to thank all of you for any potential help you can provide. Hopefully I will be able to assist others once I get back into the Boxster swing of things again

Kind Regards,
Matthew

was the door handle. When you pull up on the handle (inside or outside) the window should drop. If you release the handle without opening the door the window should go right up again.

If you open the door a switch at the door latch opens and prevents the window from going up again until the door is closed and the door latch closes and the switch connected to this also closes and with the handle released the window is raised.

IIRC the part (switch) and the labor cost was around $250.

For (2) believe it or not my car does this too. The vibration though was at first I think worse than you report. I took the car in to the dealer and the service department rebalanced the front tires/wheels because that was where the vibration felt like it was coming from. The tech at the Porsche dealership found that the other shop that had balanced the tires/wheels before had done a terrible job, with way too many weights used and one (or more) had come off. The tech reported that the rebalance required just one weight per wheel and not much weight at that.

Afterwards, the vibration was much diminished, but at higher speeds the vibration returns, though not as bad as it was before. This time the vibration feels like it is coming from the rear of the car. Now the same thing that was wrong with the front wheels/tires may be wrong with the rear wheels/tires, since the shop that did the fronts also did the rears.

But I note the rear tires are worn quite a bit, though not to the wear bars. The Porsche techs tell me that their experience is as these tires wear they can go out of balance. The tread wear removes the out of balance material and the tire/wheel that was balanced when new is no longer as balanced. So the out of balance which is not that severe and is only present at higher speeds may be due to tire wear.

Since the tires are probably going to be replaced soon, I'm reluctant to have the rear wheels/tires rebalanced though the dealer might do the rears for free like it did the fronts. But since the Boxster doesn't see long road trips now it is not a hardship to keep the car's speed below .

My advice is since the car is new to you to have the tires/wheels balanced by a knowledgeable shop and treat the car to a proper alignment. You are looking at a couple of hundred (if you are on good terms with your local dealer if you have the alignment done the tires/wheels might be rebalanced at no cost.)

As for (3), well, the smell can be the converters. Under certain conditions they can get started off on the wrong foot, chemically, and emit a rather odd odor. Rotten eggy kind.

Also remember the converters, in fact the entire exhaust system as least from the engine exhaust ports to the 1st or pre-converers and a bit beyond run pretty darn hot. (The converter temp can range up to nearly 1000F.) This is hot.As hot as any space heater. Plus, the exhaust system is exposed to dirt, water splash, trash and such and all it takes is a bit of water or a piece of plastic on/against the hot exhaust to make the exhaust smell. Depending upon what the material is, the smell can be quite well, bad.

Now about that P0430 error code. You are 3 for 3. My 02 Boxster has had this error code popup more than a few times over the last few years. The likely problem is the converter is wearing out. By wearing out this usually refers to the converter's diminished ability to retain oxygen to use to process exhaust gases.

The factory manual section on this error advises that if any O2 sensor aging error codes are present along with the P0430/P0420 error codes, to replace the sensors pointed to by the O2 sensor error codes, clear the errors, and drive the car some. If the P0430/P0420 errors come back the converter pointed to by the error is well, worn out.

If the P0430/P0420 error codes are not accompanied by any O2 sensor aging error codes, the converters are worn out.

Now I have had some luck in keeping this P0430 error code at bay. Primarily I have found that at least in my area running Shell premium (91 octane) gas (and it has some ethanol in it) seems to help. At various times in the last couple of years when gasoline prices climbed to the stratosphere I have fallen back to using a cheaper brand of gasoline. Same octane rating, and probably with the same amount of ethanol. But the P0430 error appears more often when using this cheaper gas (and bought at busy stations and at different stations, selling different brands of gasoline) and under as best I can tell the same type of driving, same weather conditions when I switch to and remain with Shell gas the error code does not appear, at least as often.

What I have also found is the error is more likely to appear when the weather cools down. During the warmer summer months here where I live/drive the error code seldom if ever appears. But as soon as the weather changes (like it is now, today, rain is forecast for the next few days along colder temps too) I can almost guarantee the error code will return. This year here has been a bit cooler than usual so the error code has been more frequent, but in other years when the spring weather came in warm and it stayed warm all through summer and even into Sept/Oct the CEL remained dark the P0430 error code stayed away.

I would like to replace the converter but there are a couple of problems... One is the darn thing is so expensive. I might be looking at $1500 for parts and labor. Plus I note the other converter while it has never generated a P0420 error code is the same age, has covered the same number of miles, as the other converter. So a case could be made to replace both at the same time. That's around $3K. Quite a bit of money to spend on an 02 Boxster with nearly 250K miles on it.

So, I continue to drive the car and when I get tired of the CEL being on I use my Actron code reader to read and then clear the code.

You can do the same. Switch to a top tier gasoline, premium grade of gasoline, and buy from a busy station. Often the busy station has the best prices so it is a win win. When possible avoid short trips. Since the car is new to you you might try a bottle or two of Techron following the directions on how to use it on the bottle label to see if this cleaner will improve combustion which tends to reduce the exhaust gas processing the converter has to do.

If the plugs are old, replace them. And unless you know it to be in good shape, replace the engine air intake filter.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

May be grease from a torn CV joint boot. The grease is flung out of the boot onto your exhaust resulting in a an smell that is present after driving the car.

The condition of the four boots are easy to examine with your car elevated on jack stands or on a lift.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Thank you so much for all your suggestions, guys

Long and short of it, I have some tinkering and then some mechanic scheduling to do ... Unfortunately I travel a lot so I am not sure when that will happen.

Now the important question: "Is it safe to drive especially with the potential cat problem? Will I harm the vehicle?"

Many thanks!

or if the engine's vital signs were *not* ok, or if the engine was acting up in any way.

IOWs, if the CEL comes on and is flashing, or if the engine shows signs of overheating (for instance), or if the engine starting idling rough, or if the engine started making any noises out of the ordinary, or if any vital fluids started showing up like there was a leak, or if any vital fluid level changed all of the sudden, I'd shut the engine off pronto and get it looked into.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Yeah, the CEL is not flashing and the temp doesn't read higher than about 180 or so. Also, Oil is within acceptable levels. I haven't noticed any leaks, what should i look for?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2011 10:37PM by mnchstrcityblues79. (view changes)

Lets say the cat is truly the failure item. Then the ECU is trying within its limits to change the fuel air mixture in response to the signals it is getting from the sensors. That can damage the engine or cause total cat failure...either is expensive. So I wouldn't be driving a lot till I solved the problem. Diagnostic starts/rides should be ok.

Here is what I'd do....

I'd read all the codes from the ECU and correct all of them before worrying about the P0430. There can be multiple codes and if the reader only showed one you haven't the true cause. There are sometimes codes that are pending but that aren't serious enough to show through on some readers. Aging sensors is one of those.

I'd take the O2 sensors from one side of the engine and put them on the other side. I'd then drive a little bit and see if the problem followed the sensors or stayed with the cat. Bet it moves which is good news for your budget.

At your mileage isn't isn't at all uncommon to have O2 sensors (especially the pre-cat ones towards the engine) just age out of spec from being in the exhaust stream so much. Happens on all cars. If this is the case, it is a trivial job to replace them. You can do it or any muffler shop can do it and you can buy the part Porsche buys without having to make the dealer markup and Porsche markup payments. List of OEM equivalents here. My muffler shop charged me $50 in labor to wait on the cool-down (exhaust pipes and cats are VERY HOT) and then replace the sensor. They do it all the time for lots of different cars. If you have the part, it will take em 10 minutes. One clip on electrical connection and one bolt-like device to remove and replace.

Buy the Bosch part with pigtail, don't try to save on off-brand sensors or ones you have to splice (NO SOLDERING).

The OP reported no mixture related codes. The check engine light was not flashing which means the DME did not detect a condition that puts the converters at risk.

The DME will not attempt to accomodate the weak converter. There's nothing it can really do in this regard. The converter is unable to store oxygen. Enriching the mixture only makes the situation worse and does subject the converter to possible damage from overheating from the excess hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas stream. Leaning the mixture doesn't help since if the converter can't store oxygen why give it more of what it can't store? Besides the converters when they work tolerate only a very narrow air fuel mixture. Just a tiny bit on other side of this ideal and converter performance tanks. Too lean a mixture can result in misfires which can result in unburned fuel making its way to the converters which would then again put the converters at risk.

I've never observed any scary short or long term fuel trims (or any other OBD data/sensor readings) when I've pulled the P0430 from my car's DME and viewed either the freeze frame data or simply switched over to the OBD real time view of my code reader/data viewer. When the CEL comes on there is no reaction before, during, or after the event. If there was no CEL lighting up I'd never know anything was 'amiss'.

Furthermore, I've driven the car for many miles with the light on and always the error code is P0430 and the engine operates just fine because often the converter is just fine. (I once drove the car long enough the light went off. But it took a long time, many trips, and in warm weather.)

When I have looked at the data the # banks's #2 sensor is swinging back and forth quite similar to the other bank's #2 sensor. Only by observing this reading *before* the CEL comes on (using my sense of when it is most likely to come on) have I been able to observe the sensor's low readings, the result of the converter acting up.

At every gas tank fill up I always check gas mileage and I have not seen any significant changes in gas mileage. Other engine vital signs (coolant temp from the dash and others courtesy of the OBD code reader/data viewer) do not in any way indicate anything out of the ordinary.

The sensors are made to exist in the exhaust gas stream. They in fact must be directly in this exhaust gas stream for them to work properly. Besides, as I mentioned the OP reported no error codes that flagged any sensors, the ones before or after the converters. The OBD reference for this P0430/P0420 error in fact requires many other components/readings be ok before the converters can be flagged.

The sensors can act up at any time that is true. But most don't act up that early.

The engine and DME and the various sensors/components are in pertty good working order. Here are the diagnostics conditions for a P0430 (and P0420):

Converter temp above 695F.
4 speed ranges obtained for at least 300 seconds.
Oxygen sensing before converter active.
Oxygen sensors after converter ready for operation.
No excessive load at the evap canister.
No oxygen sensor heating fault.
No oxygen sensor aging fault.
No adaptation fault limits exceeded.
No MAF fault.
No throttle position fault.
No fault with fuel tank vent system or tank vent end stage.
Engine speed is in the range of 1080 to 3000 rpms.
Engine load between 0.7 ms and 2.8 ms.

But of course it is up to the OP what he wants to do, how he wants to proceed. If he wants to take the cautious approach and swap sensors or even park the car and have a qualified tech diagnosis the root cause of the problem to avoid any risk to the converters or the engine, that's up to the OP.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Hey guys, thank you so much for all your help!

As for the path I have taken, I am leaning along the lines of MarkW. Point in fact, the car drives great and there only appears to be one error code (the aforementioned). The odor is still there but its not too bad.

I do have a question, should I drive it further, and lets say another problem does come come-up (i.e. another error code) will the CEL blink/go on-off/etc or should I just buy an Actron and check it periodically?

Thanks guys!

... when it is solid on, is an indicator that the emissions control has one or more codes (issues).
One or 10 codes will get you a solid light.
You would need to use a code reader to determine how many and which codes you have triggering the CEL.
You can safely, if not environmentally, keep driving your car.
If the CEL blinks, it's an indicator that there is a misfire in the engine and damage can occur.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Once again, thank you so much, all, for your help. I had a glorious day driving in the sunny, 65 degree North Carolina weather

Ok guys, a little update. I have been driving the vehicle occasionally and am loving every minute of it. I have done some research on my various issues and have a few questions (updates):

1) As to the poster that asked where the vibrations were coming from, it is exclusively in the "seat of my pants" as you put it ... i.e. it seems to come from behind, any suggestions?

2) as to the CEL P0430 my research turned up an unusual solution/suggestion: the P0430 can be the result of a clogged or clogging Cat; try a gallon of lacquer thinner w/ half a tank of gasoline and drive for about 150 miles, this should clear the CEL and help clean the Cat.
Can this be true? Seems to be good to be true. Also, i hesitate to put any common chemical in my gas tank. The problem is that equal number of people seem to be pro/anti lacquer in the gas tank. Those that are pro report positive results, those that are negative never report real-world results, just "common sense"

Any thoughts?

Quote
mnchstrcityblues79
Ok guys, a little update. I have been driving the vehicle occasionally and am loving every minute of it. I have done some research on my various issues and have a few questions (updates):

1) As to the poster that asked where the vibrations were coming from, it is exclusively in the "seat of my pants" as you put it ... i.e. it seems to come from behind, any suggestions?

2) as to the CEL P0430 my research turned up an unusual solution/suggestion: the P0430 can be the result of a clogged or clogging Cat; try a gallon of lacquer thinner w/ half a tank of gasoline and drive for about 150 miles, this should clear the CEL and help clean the Cat.
Can this be true? Seems to be good to be true. Also, i hesitate to put any common chemical in my gas tank. The problem is that equal number of people seem to be pro/anti lacquer in the gas tank. Those that are pro report positive results, those that are negative never report real-world results, just "common sense"

Any thoughts?

I haven't gone back and reread the entire thread, so this might be a repeat, but mild sorts of vibration ... wheel/tire balance has to be suspect.

If the vibration came on suddenly, it can be a lost weight. (My cars have lost a few over the years mainly from me getting too close with the wand at the DIY car wash.)

It can be a tire pressure issue. Do not ignore the possilibility what while the vibration appears to be coming from the rear of the car it may be coming from the front tires and their incorrect balance or tire pressure.

As for #2... whoever posted that a gallon of lacquer thinner in the gas tank of your car will cure a P0430 error code doesn't know squat and is no friend of engines. Granted I have no direct experience doing this lacquer thinner thing -- but I have no direct experience jumping off a cliff either but I know enough not to do it based on common sense -- but it makes no difference.

Based on my direct experience with this code over the past couple of years, I could when the P0430 error code appears clear it and at the same time mumble some goofy mumbo jumbo and chances are the error code would stay away. It often times stays away anyway for some time -- sometimes months during the warmer summer months -- as I have reported because I have learned what kind of driving, what brands of gasoline, allow the error code to appear more readily.

If you want to try something, some 'cleaner', in the hopes the error simply arises because the converter is clogged (it ain't but I'll let you hope) run a bottle or two of Techron through the gas tank, following directions on the bottle.

If you are not satisfied, if you want try to eliminate the clogged converter theory arrange to get the car in the air safely and have someone start the cold engine and carefully feel the exhaust pipes as the engine idles.

If a converter is indeed clogged the pipe leading to it will heat up slower and the converter will heat up slower than the other side, with the supposedly unclogged coverter.

Sincerely,

MarcW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 02:25PM by MarcW. (view changes)