i've never actually been to my dealer for service with the boxster, but with the Audi...

The end of the article says that the water pump should be treated as a wear item and replaced every 50,000 miles or every 4 years? I've owned my boxster since new in 1999, and have not replaced my water pump, and I've also covered 86000 miles or so. What do you guys think? Should I be running out to replace my pump, or should I just continue running my car? I'm all for preventative maintenance, but replacing the water pump without the assistance of a lift seems like it would be a PITA. Thoughts? Is this the new RMS, IMS? Are they trying more fear mongering to get us to buy the new Boxsters?

Steve
Guards Red 1999
I'm not a race car driver, but I play one in 2nd and 3rd gear

I just got home from chapters book store, I took a look at the same article. I think I'm due for a serpentine belt soon so I may go ahead and order the pump. It's cheap insurance and I hear of more cracked heads than ims failures. How much is a pump? I just replaced my top,brakes and control arms I guess a few hundred more won't kill me. I think if you plan on doing something every. Month the car stays fresh and runs strong.

Read the same article and had my car going into the shop for HID lights, rear tires and some odds and ends. Discussed with my mechanic (not dealer) and he agreed with 67M miles it was a good preventative move as it was when I changed my AOS before driving down to Florida. The pump for my '03 was $280 (goes for $250 to 325) plus new coolant and thermostat and you are looking at about 3 to 4 hours of shop time. Not a cheap repair but piece of mind.

Steve, if it's not acting up and you don't take it out for long road trips, I'd just leave it until symptoms occur. Mine happened to croak at 59k miles on my 01, but there was warning in the form of leakage. I even had just enough time to make it to the dealer and they replaced for me.

In the case of my car what proved to be the water pump started making noises. Not severe but out of the ordinary. I removed the serp belt and confirmed the noise was not present which meant the noise was coming from 'outside' the engine and not inside the engine (whew!).

A check of the various accessory drives found the water pump the only one with any play. The just a few months old new belt had a sharp edge (inner) which the old belt in service for years and thousands of miles didn't have so the sharp edge wear was a sign.

Had the car flat bedded to a dealer and a new water pump installed.

Oh, the water pump lasted 172K+ miles.

If you're a car owner that is in tune with his car and can spot/see/hear things and do not ignore them then you can wait. If not, then have the water pump replaced whenever you want. But what about the water hoses, radiators, heater core, water/oil heat exchanger, fuel pump,IMS bearing, clutch, CV bearings, Variocam solenoid/acuators (one set per bank), chain tensioners, and even some have lost an engine due to crankshaft/rod bolt failure. Where does it stop this preventative maintenance?

Carried to the extreme one could be doing a full rebuild of his engine every 50K miles. As an aside without a 50K warranty if one of the new parts fails...

My car might be a bad example, but after over 256K miles I would have spent who knows how much money to replace/renew/rebuild the engine that is for the most part original (just one bank's VarioCam solenoid/actuator).

Sincerely,

MarcW.

I think mine has been ever so slightly seeping for 30k or so.

I guess you could say I've saved 3x cost of replacing it.

It seems to me that less frequently driven cars have more water pump failures.

the white anti-freeze residue which can only come from a small amount of coolant leaking. The techs told me Porsche even had a call out as to the size of the stain but would't share it. But again there should be no wetness, no dripping coolant.

Your car has just a few K miles less than mine had when its water pump started grumbling. You don't want to run a suspected water pump too long for it can fail outright and that risks serious damage to the engine.

In your car's case I'd say a water pump replacement is probably close to being due if not due right now. ou've gotten your money's worth out the thing. Replace it and start working on another 166K miles.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Rather, you would have a slow leak, low coolant warning, and the ability to limp into a shop.

Maybe its not the most convenient, but if you are aware, it should not ruin a motor.

I presume, maybe wrongly, that the water pump is fairly easy to access through the hatch, since its driven by the serp belt that is right there.

At some point i'll look into this. as i recall, burping the system is a bit of magic.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
Rather, you would have a slow leak, low coolant warning, and the ability to limp into a shop.

Maybe its not the most convenient, but if you are aware, it should not ruin a motor.

I presume, maybe wrongly, that the water pump is fairly easy to access through the hatch, since its driven by the serp belt that is right there.

At some point i'll look into this. as i recall, burping the system is a bit of magic.

Grant

time bomb. The risks are the cooling system can't retain pressure and this leads to localized overheating which can damage an engine. Coolant temp may not rise much due to the way this localized overheating works in that coolant flow is blocked from flowing due to steam pockets. There is no transfer of heat to the coolant for the coolant is prevented from contacting the hotter areas of the engine. The coolant flows around/past the steam pockets (or is forced to seek another path entirely) and as I said above little or no heat from the steam pockets is transferred to the coolant.

A leaking water pump is at risk from mechanical failure. The play can get so bad the impeller blades make contact with the engine block and the blades come apart. The pump still spins but little to no coolant is flowing and again no warning lights appear. The first sign is a weak spot in the system blows out -- the tank or hose or fitting or a head gasket -- from the buildup of pressure the non-circulating coolant. Some replacement pumps have metal blades which can instead of breaking off erode/abrade the engine casting with potentially engine block integrity damage.

Or the pump shaft can break.

I hate to harp on this but I can't stress how important it is to these engines to ensure the water pump is working just fine not leaking or if it is it is leaking it is within the acceptable guidelines of what Porsche allows. The guidelines however as they were given to me are a bit vague and my advice is to if a leak is suspected have the water pump inspected for signs of wetness and play. For the former getting the engine/cooling system nice and hot, hot enough that the radiator fans come on (this needs to be done with the A/C off for the fans run all the time and the coolant temp is kept down as a result) and then the engine shut off. The heat load will raise the coolant temp and pressure and any leak will be easier to spot. The car should be on a lift too so one is up close the water pump. However, this is not a place for a casual mechanic to be for the risk is a sudden tank split (as what happened with my Boxster when I did the above in my driveway) can douse anyone under the car with scalding hot coolant.

As cars age little things can take out an engine. The biggest little thing is a subpar underperforming cooling system. The cost of a replacement head for an older car can represent a considerable fraction of the car's value and an otherwise fine car can meet an early/premature demise due to not heeding the early warning signs a water pump needs to be replaced.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

... that you suggest fairly complex diagnostic procedure. If this can occur and progress at any rapid rate, that means that either i must do this regularly (aint gonna happen) or that i / one won;t likely catch the telltale signs. Or did i mis-read?

I think you suggested the conundrum yourself.

as to doing it as scheduled main we have suggestions of 45k (excellence) 60-some-k (one example cited here) and 166k (Stephan and you?). which leaves rather a wide range :-)

Thanks for elaborating anyway - it is appreciated!

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

or just look at the pump for signs of too much leaking and feel the serp belt for a sharp edge at oil change time is about all that is necessary, all I do and all the techs do. I watch them take a peek at the water pump behind the pulley and between the housing. They look for leaks at other places, too, in the radiator air exit openings, at the hose connections, and othe places. This is what a lot of cars miss out on when the owner does an oil/filter change and thinks that's a full service.

If one finds the coolant level low it is ok -- of course -- to just add distilled water or fresh anti-freeze to bring the level up. What is not ok is to think this drop in the coolant level is normal.

I drove the Boxster for over 100K miles and never had to add coolant. Whenever I have had to add coolant there's been a leak, first what proved to be the coolant cap then the coolant tank. This last leak I thought I "fixed" by just adding coolant but the faint smell of anti-freeze was telling me different. Fortunately, in an odd way, a radiator fan quit and in confirming this and getting the engine nice and hot to force the fans on via high (>212F) temp the increase in pressure was the final straw, the tank split and gushed hot coolant right out onto the pavement of my parking space.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

of what a good mechanic does with his time while the oil is draining, he walks around the car looking for leaks, feeling the tires for cupping, doing the things his experience tells him are good diagnostic approaches to catching trouble before it becomes serious. Another thing a good mechanic will do is listen to the owner who often will describe something that seems now or off to him without knowing the cause. One reason I have the service adviser scenario at dealers is that you loose the opportunity for the mechanic to get some clues directly from the driver and to query the driver.

All this is only good business too because the thorough mechanic can help you order preventative maintenance while you are there as opposed to experiencing the problem and fix elsewhere.

...rate system. So if he finds stuff, that's someone elses' number to meet. And it it takes more than 70% of the "book" time, he's behind for the shop, and down on his wages. Which is why a "good mechanic" these days is rarely the usually competent ones in the dealer. The system is against them. Go see Pedro, Gene Kirschner, Powertech, etc.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I don't know how it is nowadays, but years ago in my dad's dealership, if a mechanic found something that had not been written up in the original service order and was subsequently repaired by the dealership, the mechanic was given a cut of the cost of the additional work. I don't recall what that percentage was - probably somewhere around 10%. This encouraged the mechanic to be more proactive in selling additional services to the customer. Of course, the service managers have to keep a close eye on it to prevent mechanics from reporting non-existent problems.

Cheers,

mike

it is they that talk me out of preventative work rather than into it. I wanted to replace the coolant hoses in the Boxster when the coolant tank failed. Tech said no need they last a long long time. And at that time none of the techs were working full 40 hour weeks.

When the Boxster's passenger bank VarioCam solenoid/actuator failed I asked about doing the other bank. Tech said with no error codes to leave it be. I asked about the chain rails. He said we'll be able to make a decision after seeing the ones in the bank he was opening up. After the rails were visible he said they showed little wear and without any symptoms/signs of rail wear to leave the other bank alone.

Now, more recently, the camshaft cover -- the one that was *not* touched in the repair mentioned above -- was found to be leaking. Tech advised me it was not too bad and we could let it go until it got worse. I might add this leak was first spotted while the car was in for an oil filter service. The tech just noted it on the paperwork and I read his comments and asked the SM if I could speak with the tech and of course he said "sure". The tech went over the situation with me.

The next time I had the car in we both looked at the leak with the car in the air and he pointed out where the leak would be if it were from something else -- like spark plug tubes for instance -- and that it was not a bad leak and the oil was not getting on anything and it was not even hitting the ground, which he told me is generally what is required before a leak is fixed under warranty.

More than once I asked about struts/shocks and was told the car felt ok.

The techs tell me the clutch feels fine even with over 256K miles on it.

3 original wheel bearings and one with over 16OK miles. Replace? No they're fine I'm told. No symptoms leave them be.

CV boots cracked. I wanted to just replace the half shafts with new ones, new boots, new bearings. Expensive ($900+ each plus labor). Tech said they felt ok and he advised the cheaper solution: Clean, repack and reinstall with new boots. Said if the shafts are not acting up when the boots are done they'll last forever. Saved me some money.

While the plugs have been replaced several times it has never once been suggested the coils be replaced.

Had new tires installed a while back and I asked about an alignment -- generally I have the car aligned whenever 4 new tires are instaled -- but the tech pointed out the tire wear of the old tires didn't indicate the alignment needed doing and in telling me this talked me out of an alignment.

MAF cleaning, fuel injector cleanings, engine oil flushes, none of these have been suggested.

While most of the above is with the Boxster there have been cases with Turbo. Coils for instance, are original. The techs just look at me funny when I tell them the online advice is to replace them every plug change without any signs of coil troubles.

Overall, I'd say the techs have talked me out of nearly $10K worth of work.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

.. it was so bad that when Audi had the "free" maint (built into the price), and i asked about a bunch of things that were not done - greasing hinges, brake fluid flush - all called out int he manual, they told me that they could not afford to do all the work on what they got paid flat rate. And expected me to care. Not only did the system screw me, but they were indignant that i wanted proper work done. Amazing. The list of stories could go on forever.

So its great that you are treated unusually well, but in most cases people should expect quite the opposite - the incentive is built in; people do what they are paid to do.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... is very easy.
You don't need to open the aluminum firewall behind the seats.
The water pump is the lowermost part of the engine.
You can actually see it and remove it from underneath.
All you need is to have access such as when the car is on a lift.
When diagnosing a water pump it's best to do it when there's pressure in the system.
However once it's decided that the pump needs replacement, let the car cool overnight before doing the work.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

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Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

The last one failed in less than two years. At least Porsche refunded the cost of the part, but it didn't make being stranded on the way back from NYC any less of a PITA.
However, if one had to breakdown on RT95, best to do it 3 miles from Fairfield Porsche...they really took care of this out-of-towner a week before Christmas. Had the car back in 2 days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2012 08:40PM by RainyDayGarage. (view changes)