Re: So you don't think that ...

I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Just prior to BRBS the dealer informed me of a $400 fee that I was not told about previously for my new Boxster. I wasn't pleased, they did say they would split it with me. The extra cost to me would be $200. I spoke with the sales person when I returned, got the final decision today that they would not do any more. They informed me that if I went to another dealer I'd have to wait until Oct to get my car. Told them I would think about a few days and let them know ...... They don't know me too well.

I went to McKenna today, they had an open spot with delivery for Aug 28 (12 days later than my original order). So, I then started to discuss my options and the cost. My prior order had 6% off. I told them the price that was quoted. After being at BRBS and speaking with others, I decided to add a few options. I came up with the price, we negotiated. I ended up getting 7.5% off my car with the extra options. For an extra $3,000 I added the ventilated seats and changed to the Cayman wheels. Then added the PDK. I think I did ok ...... I won't have to fly to Vegas and pay the cost of the trip, so I save money there as well. I'll just fly my granddaughter to California to come pick it up with me (main reason for the Vegas delivery).

Now I'm kinda glad that Guenter is over 3,000 miles away from me ..... We had discussions about how much we liked the manual transmission. He may wring my neck if we were closer .... After listening to conversations at BRBS and speaking with others here in SoCal. I tried it, much better and responsive than the tiptronic. I liked it, but I'm not "in love" with it, maybe in time. I decided that I'm probably going to be keeping this car a long time, like my last one, and I may not want the manual when I'm older.

To sum it up..... I got more options for $3K but have a 12 day later delivery date.

Joanne

Quote
Joanne in OC
I'm not sure if this is good or bad. Just prior to BRBS the dealer informed me of a $400 fee that I was not told about previously for my new Boxster. I wasn't pleased, they did say they would split it with me. The extra cost to me would be $200. I spoke with the sales person when I returned, got the final decision today that they would not do any more. They informed me that if I went to another dealer I'd have to wait until Oct to get my car. Told them I would think about a few days and let them know ...... They don't know me too well.

I went to McKenna today, they had an open spot with delivery for Aug 28 (12 days later than my original order). So, I then started to discuss my options and the cost. My prior order had 6% off. I told them the price that was quoted. After being at BRBS and speaking with others, I decided to add a few options. I came up with the price, we negotiated. I ended up getting 7.5% off my car with the extra options. For an extra $3,000 I added the ventilated seats and changed to the Cayman wheels. Then added the PDK. I think I did ok ...... I won't have to fly to Vegas and pay the cost of the trip, so I save money there as well. I'll just fly my granddaughter to California to come pick it up with me (main reason for the Vegas delivery).

Now I'm kinda glad that Guenter is over 3,000 miles away from me ..... We had discussions about how much we liked the manual transmission. He may wring my neck if we were closer .... After listening to conversations at BRBS and speaking with others here in SoCal. I tried it, much better and responsive than the tiptronic. I liked it, but I'm not "in love" with it, maybe in time. I decided that I'm probably going to be keeping this car a long time, like my last one, and I may not want the manual when I'm older.

To sum it up..... I got more options for $3K but have a 12 day later delivery date.

Joanne

Congratulations, Joanne, hope this one works out better for you. Wring your neck? No way. It's your money. your options and you have to like them. Besides, if I did wring your neck, you probably wouldn't buy me a beer at BRBS next year.

For me, I wouldn't even be selling my car and buying the new one right now if I wasn't afraid that Porsche will go totally PDK in the near future. That's just my preference. Like I've said before, I might have to go PDK for my wheel chair - but until then, I'll enjoy doing my own shifting.

As for distance - you're exaggerating. At 2,500 miles, I'm a LOT closer than you think.

Oh yah, had an email from my salesman today that my car was going to be produced early this coming week and is scheduled to arrive on the east coast July 15, so will likely have it about the 3rd week of July. Probably quicker because it's a manual.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

Arriving at the east coast probably means it will be at the Halifax Autoport. As you know, I'm in Halifax often (in fact, I'm in Hfx as I type this).

[smartcityblog.greaterhalifax.com]

If you like, and if you can arrange it with Porsche, I'll be pleased to take your new car for a quick 'quality assurance' spin, after it arrives in Hfx., before it's loaded on the train for Ontario.

That way, if there are any issues, they can be rectified before it reaches you. I know you want to avoid even the most remote possibility of anything going awry when your eyes meet across the showroom floor.

Quote
Roger987
Arriving at the east coast probably means it will be at the Halifax Autoport. As you know, I'm in Halifax often (in fact, I'm in Hfx as I type this).

[smartcityblog.greaterhalifax.com]

If you like, and if you can arrange it with Porsche, I'll be pleased to take your new car for a quick 'quality assurance' spin, after it arrives in Hfx., before it's loaded on the train for Ontario.

That way, if there are any issues, they can be rectified before it reaches you. I know you want to avoid even the most remote possibility of anything going awry when your eyes meet across the showroom floor.

Gotta say, your generous offer is much appreciated. I can't think of anyone else who's willing to do so much for so little. I'd never ask anyone to sacrifice so much of their precious time. I'll just have to do all that tough work myself.

Apparently, Porsche trucks cars directly from Halifax to dealers via enclosed trucks.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

Quote
Roger987
Arriving at the east coast probably means it will be at the Halifax Autoport. As you know, I'm in Halifax often (in fact, I'm in Hfx as I type this).

[smartcityblog.greaterhalifax.com]

If you like, and if you can arrange it with Porsche, I'll be pleased to take your new car for a quick 'quality assurance' spin, after it arrives in Hfx., before it's loaded on the train for Ontario.

That way, if there are any issues, they can be rectified before it reaches you. I know you want to avoid even the most remote possibility of anything going awry when your eyes meet across the showroom floor.

Roger, do the G Man a favor and offer to do the 3000km break in for him so that when he gets the car he can drive without worrying about keeping it under 4200 rpm. That's what a real friend would do..

Between you and Roger, I'll get my car just in time to trade it in on a 2025 self-driving E-Boxster. By that time, I won't even be able to get a car that has a flippin' paddle. It'll only have 2 buttons to operate it.



...and they'll find a way of simplifying that because people will find it too complicated.

.... I also loved the vented seats when we were at Bristol.
Like you I would also purchase the PDK.
You did good negotiating.
Happy waiting,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
I would also purchase the PDK.
Pedro

OMG...what have you been smoking?

I've always been a manual guy and had an 05 Boxster, but got PDK on my new one, it is amazing. It's actually fun to set it in different gearing with subtle changes in throttle pressure. No way I could shift or think as fast it does.

Pedro gets a pass due to injuries from his proclivity for tumbling off roofs, Joanne gets one because she's a woman needing a DD in CA traffic, Kite Pilot gets a pass because, well, he flies a kite, but there is simply no excuse for the retired SC lawyer and his $100 K toy.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

... I would choose the PDK because I think it's an outstanding piece of engineering.
It makes me faster at the track which to me is more enjoyable than shifting and being slower.
Happy PDK'ing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

.. i think i'd rather shift and be slower. Its a sport. I'm sure hiring Rafa Nadal to play tennis for me would impriove my wining %, btu i would not gain the same enjoyment or pride out of it.

OTOH, i completely agree that PDK is better than me, and that it also frees me to concentrate on better braking, turn-in, subtle line differences that get obliterated when wrestling with abotched heal-and-toe, etc.

How about "both please"?

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
grant
.. i think i'd rather shift and be slower. Its a sport. I'm sure hiring Rafa Nadal to play tennis for me would impriove my wining %, btu i would not gain the same enjoyment or pride out of it.

OTOH, i completely agree that PDK is better than me, and that it also frees me to concentrate on better braking, turn-in, subtle line differences that get obliterated when wrestling with abotched heal-and-toe, etc.

How about "both please"?

Grant

Grant, your first paragraph is the exact reason for me spending a lot of money right now to get a new 981 with manual. It's the enjoyment and satisfaction I get out of a properly executed down shift and finding the right moment to power out of a turn or a quick upshift as you're accelerating. PDK would take that away from me.

After my track experience with the Cayman at Mosport, I know I could easily become a track junky, but finances will like prevent me from doing that. But, if I were racing, I'd like to feel that if I beat someone, that I'm the one that beat them, not that my car beat their car.

"both please" Yup that would be the ultimate, but right now it's one or the other. You do have a choice. I don't see that "both please" will ever happen. As manufacturers gradually get more and more into hybrid systems for fuel economy, I don't see any way of having a manual transmission getting the power of two systems to the drive wheels. Gotta be computerized and automated.

All of this is having me sell a (can't afford two of them) car that I absolutely love driving and spending a big bunch of $ to get what could be a soon extinct form of complete enjoyment when driving.

If we were to follow your line of thinking then...

Why use ABS?
Why use Power Brakes?
Why use disc brakes and not drums?
Why use racing brake pads?
Why use Power Steering?
Why use new tire technology and not old radials?
Why use seatbelts and airbags?

I'm not hiring Ayrton Senna to drive for me although, I would have loved to ride shotgun with him or have him instruct me.
I would just be driving a more efficient and faster car.
I guess you're a racer when all you want to do is be faster than second place.
As Senna once said: "being second is to be the first of the ones who lose".

You enjoy shifting to the point of being slower.
I enjoy shifting, but not to that point.
I enjoy being faster.
Let it be known that none of my personal cars (since 1969 through today - about 20 of them) have ever had an automatic transmission.
Let it also be known that I don't have a PDK now. I wish I did.

Happy PDK'ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

In all, well most of, those cases i must modulate things. Some cool better, some are more linear, some reduce the physical effort.

Safety is another matter entirely, and does not interfere with the skill and dexterity and enjoyment of a shift/etc well executed. I may have some issue with ABS, TC, PSM etc, but on balance i would take them for the safety aspect. note, however, in real life i have none of these save ABS.

PDK is different. It obviates the need for much of the coordination, timing, skill.

I have no problem with graphite tennis rackets, or safer bindings either. But i don't want "GPS guided hydraulic skis".

There is a huge difference between equipment that follows your physical commands better, as a true extension of your hand and foot, and one that allows you to not use the hand, foot, or brain.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... being the fastest in your class at the track is not an extension of the driver if he/she decides to use PDK?
So, what about all the Pro drivers which that's all they have?
There's no skill in what they're doing?
You think PDK drives for you?
A good driver with a manual is still going to be faster than a mediocre one with a PDK in the same car.
But a good fast driver will be faster with a PDK than with a manual.
Again it all comes to the nitty gritty of what makes a racer and what does a racer enjoy the most: Not ever wanting to finish in second place.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Your questions are extreme and say things i never ever said or even implied. I simply said that shifting is part of the skill and PDK takes that away.

part means a subset, not the whole. Please don't suggest that i took anything away from racers who use it. That's unfair.

If i was a pro racer, i'd use it. Absolutely. But i'm not. And likely never will be.

As a competitive club racer i might not use it either. That's the beauty of spec racing - you can find a spec that eliminates such arms-race-escalation.

Do i think PDK gives them an advantage? Absolutely - there is no question. Andrew Davis said it straight out when he was at our recent drivers seminar.
(for the record, he said he'd use whatever made him faster, and that was PDK). But read between the lines.

Its better. Its an advantage. But it takes some of the participation out. These are facts, the rest is preference and opinion.

I do this for enjoyment. I will never be the fastest. Ergo, I prefer a manual shift.

I never,ever said a PDK drives for you But it DOES shift for you, and that's one less thing to do in parallel.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2013 10:15PM by grant. (view changes)

Also, using PDK in manual mode, you still have to choose the gear, and initiate the shift at the right time. Only thing removed is the manual activation of the clutch and it's timing. So some of the interaction is removed, but you still must apply some skill.

Quote
gedwin
Also, using PDK in manual mode, you still have to choose the gear, and initiate the shift at the right time. Only thing removed is the manual activation of the clutch and it's timing. So some of the interaction is removed, but you still must apply some skill.

If you have PDK, why would you want to use it in manual mode? You've paid $4000 for this option, why not use it for its optimum potential. As Pedro had said in an earlier post, PDK is so good that it learns your driving style and it will shift much better than you can.

Quote
Guenter in Ontario

Quote
gedwin
Also, using PDK in manual mode, you still have to choose the gear, and initiate the shift at the right time. Only thing removed is the manual activation of the clutch and it's timing. So some of the interaction is removed, but you still must apply some skill.

If you have PDK, why would you want to use it in manual mode? You've paid $4000 for this option, why not use it for its optimum potential. As Pedro had said in an earlier post, PDK is so good that it learns your driving style and it will shift much better than you can.

It has been implied that PDK does everything for you. In fact, you can choose a level of involvement. Or not. Your choice. What I suggested is pretty close to what race drivers are doing now. They don't have a fully auto mode. We get to choose. Just no manual clutch.

I have tip in my Audi S6. I always thought the manual mode was at best an amusement, at worst a chence to screw up a perfectly good shift algorithm.

Until i took it to the track a few times.

The auto mode, even in "sport" is sloooooooow. It will cost tenths at many places around a road course.

Even the manual mode is slow, and has, in effect, lag. Coming out of the infield to the oval at Pocono, i shifted a good 6/10 before i wanted the shift to occur.

In regular tip mode, it will shift up on throttle lift, a very bad thing mid-corner.

In sport mode, i thought it did not (and on the street it doesn't). But again, the track shows the flaws. Sometime sit does inopportune things.

The PDK is much better. In fact, its awesome, but its best in manual mode, i think. At least, you choose the gear and power delivery mode, rather than ebing surprised. Which, at the limit of adhesion, is a BAD THING.

note, i think PDK is great technology. But its automated, for better or worse.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Quote
Pedro (Weston, FL)
... being the fastest in your class at the track is not an extension of the driver if he/she decides to use PDK?
So, what about all the Pro drivers which that's all they have?
There's no skill in what they're doing?
You think PDK drives for you?
A good driver with a manual is still going to be faster than a mediocre one with a PDK in the same car.
But a good fast driver will be faster with a PDK than with a manual.
Again it all comes to the nitty gritty of what makes a racer and what does a racer enjoy the most: Not ever wanting to finish in second place.
Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

I don't see being fastest at the track as being an extension of the driver. Isn't that a goal the driver does or doesn't achieve?

I understand that if everyone else at the track has PDK, it puts the manual driver at a disadvantage time-wise. As I stated in my post a couple of weeks ago, I can see were this is a valid reason for having PDK - because everyone else has it. And, yes there's still a lot of skill involved in driving a PDK equipped car.

However, I do feel it takes away one skill set, the driver is no longer required to use. So which skill set goes next?

Let's see, Porsche (and others with similar technology) has an optional Active Cruise control which controls the speed and will automatically brake if you get too close to the car in front. It shouldn't be too difficult for the engineers and computer guys to program that system (along with lane control) to figure the best time / point to draft and then pass the car in front. So that gets rid of 2 more pedals. No more brake and gas pedal to interfere with driving. Driver can focus all his/her attention on steering.

Well, maybe with lane control, we could get rid of the steering wheel too.

So, now there's no more real need for you know who.

When it comes to racing, I still wish F1 drivers had to do their own shifting, but you can't stop the technology. What about DRS. Basically, in F1 it's like a point-by passing. If you're a second behind in the passing zone, you get an automatic pass. Unfortunately, to create some passing in F1, they've had to institute this artificial passing technology. I know it's certainly dulled my enthusiasm for F1 racing.

I realize that I'm looking at it from an enjoyment of the driving experience point of view. For me, when I'm driving a road like The Diamondback, I like to feel at one with the car. I know that with PDK, I'd feel at maybe 3/4 (if there is such a thing) with the car. I'd feel the car was taking me through the corners, not that the car and I are working together to achieve that Zen of Driving.

It boils down to the fact that I'm fine with Porsche offering the PDK, as long as they continue to provide a manual for those of us that like to feel at one with the car to truly enjoy the driving experience.

Quote
Guenter in Ontario
However, I do feel it takes away one skill set, the driver is no longer required to use.

What skill set is that?
Not using his/her left foot?
Not using their right hand to shift?

With PDK you still need those skills.
You need to up/down shift, so you need to know when and apply it timely (otherwise the computer won't know how aggressive or not you are when/if you switch to auto shifting)
It's more efficient to do so via the steering wheel paddles, but you can force yourself to lower your hand to the actual shift lever and shift that way as well.
In most cases, if not always, good PDK drivers develop another skill well known to Karting: Left Foot Braking.
When I take my (5-speed manual) car to the track I left-foot-brake in some select corners while I'm accelerating.
This allows me to control and steer the rear end a bit better, but it's uncomfortable and cumbersome to do because of the clutch pedal.
I'm really glad someone thought of eliminating that thing for us Karters.

Happy Porscheing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

And with the GPS, I won't get lost on the mountain

and a dog-box, clutch for first, then go. But alas I don't have the money for one or the upkeep of a racing gearbox. I can see the possitive of the PDK, but I am not a racer, I know Pedro does so it makes sense for him to want PDK. If I had to buy a new car, I would still go for a manual transmission since its becoming more and more rare. Plus, when my kids grow up, and their friends don't know how to drive stick, I will only have to worry about my own kids "borrowing" the car!

Steve
Guards Red 1999
I'm not a race car driver, but I play one in 2nd and 3rd gear

I actually find the PDK fun to drive and one of the most unexpected and enjoyable parts of the 981. It's pretty amazing technology. All my previous cars were manual transmissions, except for a couple of SUV's where it wasn't an option.

When I ordered our 2008 Corvette, there were several well known discount dealers that dealt cash only. Same for our Honda Pilot in 2005. I don't think there are similar dealers for Porsche.

Steve

By dropping the ball, the Vegas dealer inadvertently gave you a chance to fine-tune your order, as a result of which you're getting the perfect car for you.

Ventilated seats, from what I've read, are one of those options that is often overlooked, but very desirable.

Congrat's!

The ventilated seats actually suck, but once you have em you'll never go back. The design draws the air away from you with the exhaust at the back, bottom of the seat. It's designed to suck the heat away from your body. I always thought that it was going to blow A/C air onto your back and butt, but nope, it's a fan that draws the body heat away. Instant relief, too. I enjoy it much more than my heated steering wheel.

I drove an S with ventilated seats from Atlanta to Charleston (and back) last fall. Above 80 degrees humid or 85 degrees non-humid, they're a revelation. However, I found the padding a bit lacking.