Re: New IMS approach

http://europeanpartssolution.com/instructions/

5 year warranty.

Few details beyond roller bearings being used. No details on what is included.

My usual "what testing" warning.

(I can't get any of the other tabs on the site to display on firefox.)

Available only for model years up to 2005.

Hope their bearing works better than their website.

Next to that phrase they have a picture of a size-measuring caliper which is even more irrelevant than the "loading capacity".

If lack of (or, more accurately, loss of) lubrication is the problem (which seems reasonable), then increasing load capacity doesn't truly address the problem, does it?. Is it not the case that a dry bearing is soon going to be a broken bearing, irrespective of its load capacity?

and I will point out that no bearing type alone solves this problem. Adequate lubrication is needed for all bearings.

I like the DOF solution, and also the LN which, while it goes also for glorious mechanical overkill, is designed to catch splash lubrication.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... of the multiple types of IMS bearings on the market (steel ball, ceramic ball, steel roller, etc.) that has its outer seal removed will get a bit of oil splash.
But that splash is not enough.
Remember that aside from coating the bearing's surfaces to reduce wear, flowing oil needs to remove heat which is generated by the bearing's friction, aside from the heat that's conduced through the components from the combustion cycle.
Also, the more surface points a bearing has (roller vs ball) the more heat it will generate internally.
Once again:
THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE IMS BEARING, IT'S THE LACK OF PROPER LUBRICATION!

Happy DOF'ing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Given the number of mist/splashed bearings running for multiple years (Hartech in the UK, LN).

(I spent this morning picking through a licensed engineer's computations on water flow through a class-3 stream bed. Off by 300%. So don't assume I'm picking on one thing, I'm just congenitally curious about how we are sure of anything.)

that the DOF stream is preferred. But i dont have it. And thousands of others don't. Should i presume that the LN bearing in my car is still the weak link, or that it is now capable of out-lasting the rest of the motor. At the moment i believe the latter - it will likely out-last other parts of my M96 motors.

I'd need some form of evidence to move off that position.

But i do wish DOF was available when i had it (them) apart....

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

... in 1997. It would have saved a lot of engines.

Again, we are not going to disclose our testing procedures.
We provide what we believe is the best solution to a long-standing problem and we stake our name and reputation on it.

Suffice it to say that the DOF development team has hundreds of years of collective experience working with Porsche engines (street and racing).
This team includes seasoned Porsche Master Techs, Mechanical Engineers and Experienced Manufacturers, who are also Porsche owners, drivers, racers and enthusiasts, working as a group to develop test, manufacture and provide this long-awated product.

The introduction of the open, ceramic-ball bearing some years ago was initially touted as a solution, then later referred to it by its own promoters as a "band-aid" when their new product was announced, which by the way includes forced oil feed.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to realize that a hig-revving bearing enclosed in a hot shaft needs a metered stream of cooled, filtered oil to make it perform at it's best and provide it with a long life, whether that bearing is flat, ball, roller or otherwise and whether it's made of steel, ceramic or a space-age composite for that matter.

Just think logically; what would you rather have in your car:
An open bearing that when the engine is running might get some oil splash?... or, an open bearing that has direct oil feed right into it.

Visualize an open bearing spinning at several thousand revolutions-per-minute.
Any oil or lubricant in that bearing is going to be forced out towards the bearing's outer race by the centrifugal force generated by the balls spinning and twirling.

So if you're relying on a splash of oil getting into all the nooks and crannies of that spinning bearing, good luck with that.

On the other hand, imagine that the same high revving bearing now has a thin, metered stream of cooled, filtered oil being directed right into those spinning surfaces at a working pressure of roughly 55-60 psi working to cool and lubricated the surfaces (balls/rollers and races).

Which approach do you think is best?
Now decide, logically, which one do you want in your car?

Happy DOF'ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

If proper oiling is the key issue here, how does Marc's bearing still work at 200K+ and (IIRC) Pedro's bearing (in his old motor) lasted over 100K with lots of track miles on it, both without additional oil streams or advanced bearing designs?

I'm sure Marc and Pedro did all the normal maintenance ( or better), used the proper motor oils/filters and buzzed the motor occasionally, but those 2 motors went (or are still going) a long way without any mods; luck of the draw or something else?
I know it's only two examples, but to me it does say that under certain circumstances, the original IMS could function for a very long period without failing.

... are driven hard and constantly have shown to have a lower failure rate as to the IMS bearing.
Remember that these bearings start to fail when the seal is compromised by rancid/acid oil inside the IMS.
When this rancid/acid oil gets inside the bearing it dissolves the "lifetime" grease inside the bearing at it starts to deteriorate by not having proper lubrication.
In cars that are driven constantly and hard it takes longer for the bearing's seal to deteriorate because the oil takes longer to become rancid/acid.
An then there are the exceptions that last longer than they should just like those that last less than they should.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Maybe there's an ideal combination of hard, but rev-limited acceleration (for the mid-engine configuration) until the motor's tolerances and lubrication (especially in consideration of the IMSB ) are up to the job of all-out performance.

Several years ago when the IMS Bearing failing became a world-known issue, the bearing replacement to ceramic was the first approach towards "solving" the issue related to failures, and as real-world testing went on, more and more IMS bearing "solution" kits became available trying to attack the issue with a common factor, they left the front seal open to improve lubrication.

There has been a very low failure rate of these bearings, and a lot of scare tactics were used to get people to think their M96 engine had an imminent death approaching and need to replace the bearing immediately. Yes a lot of vehicles out there are still running with the original bearing with 100 – 200k + miles. Pedro’s wasn’t replaced until around the 200,000 mile mark, and even when it was pulled it looked fine. I’ve had countless engines here that we’ve taken apart, and the IMS bearing looked fine. Several cases at our shop had a failed bearing, and they had low mileage, anywhere from 20,000 to 85,000 miles. Cases of IMS bearing failing are rare. The first case at my shop was in September of 2009 where we referred our photo evidence of the bearing failure to LN engineering to see what could be done because they were the ones originally offering the bearing replacement and “solution”, which these photos were used on a report online to help promote the bearing upgrade and “imminent failure”. At that moment, we began to use what was available at that time and began to work on ideas to solve the lubrication issue. Now most of the engines out there have more miles and attacking the problem is recommended.

The key is to use your car, the more you use it the lower the chance you have of a possible bearing failure. That’s why we say “possible”, you don’t know if it will happen or not. Porsche finally admitted to the problem now with this lawsuit going around, paying out money to people who had a failure or replaced their bearing. Why take a chance with your engine with the possibility of it failing? Again, it’s a possibility, not a guarantee it will fail. That’s why the DOF was created, to solve the issue. Like Pedro stated, if the DOF was available in 1997 it could have saved many engines. How do you know if your bearing is going to fail? The only way, take it out and examine it. By that time, its better just to replace it and put the proper oil feed system to it. This lowers the chance of a possible failure.

Lubrication was always the issue and is still the issue, that's why the ceramic bearing has the seal removed, so some splash oil could get to it. Even so, the ceramic bearing kit available is recommended to be inspected and or replaced every 40,000 to 50,000 miles knowing the original Porsche bearing can last up to over 200,000+ miles.

The DOF has over a year of testing on street applications and track use. The ceramic bearing upgrade was first installed in 2008 on a test car, and then available shortly seven months later. Pelican's bearing had a two year test phase before even becoming commercially available. Even so, both bearing replacement kits are basing the theory that just splash oil will solve it. In the DOF case, the bearing constantly has fresh, filtered and cooled oil to it.

You have oil on the shaft, right? The oil is sitting there until you start the engine. When that happens, centrifugal force causes the oil to spread outside of the shaft and bearing, not leaving much oil behind to lubricate the IMS bearing sufficiently. To make it easy to visualize: Have you seen a wet dog? When the dog stands still, it's soaking. As soon as it starts to shake, all of the water spreads and goes away, leaving it dry. The same thing happens to the shaft; as it sits, oil will be there, but as soon as it starts to rotate it spreads oil away.

Visualize a blender, or go to your kitchen where it's at. Pour in liquid and turn it on. Look down the center where the blade is. What is happening? The force from the blade rotating is causing the liquid to be pushed away from the center and towards the sides. Of course, the blades in a blender are designed to mix the liquid, but the point is to visualize the centrifugal force acting on it. When you stop the blender, all of the liquid goes back to the center. Imagine your Intermediate Shaft now. Pour oil on top of it and on the bearing. Rotate it at let's say, 3000 RPM, the same will happen as did the liquid in the blender, it will be thrown to the sides and away.

There will be still some splash oil on the bearing even with the direct oil feed system. Splash oil can cause some contaminants or debris to enter the exposed bearing, but having the DOF installed also the oil feed will wash away any contaminant that may enter it.

Another example that I mentioned before either here or another forum: If you have a mid-engine car, when you accelerate, oil tends to go TOWARD the bearing. If you have a 996 or 997, the oil will move AWAY from the bearing. Vice versa when braking. It's not a continuous flow of lubrication to the bearing with just an open bearing. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not, depends on the current G-force state the vehicle is under.

I recall reading someone stating “I don't care if anyone buys my product” and “The bearing is just a ‘Band-Aid’ anyways." What does that say about a company standing behind its product? We stand behind our product, have put our reputation on it and don't consider it a Band-Aid, but more of a solution.

Regards,
Mike P.
TuneRS Motorsports

This debate, which I characterize as the fire hose versus garden hose contest, has yet to provide facts to prove whether DOF lubricated IMS bearings last materially longer than similar bearings lubricated by splash oil alone. So far people have put forward several hypotheses that one approach is better than another. Without comparative bearing wear data or statistically valid samples of equivalent real world experiences, however, there is no objective way to settle the question as to which approach provides the longest bearing life. More oil volume might be better, but then again it may not. Only data that directly predicts longevity can show which supposition is correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2013 07:48PM by thom4782. (view changes)

Oh, i see very little chance that its not better. Splash lubrication is marginal, especially with regard to heat management.

I mean, how could it not be better? More cooling? Constant, adequate+ lubrication. Reduced acid and water contamination.

The only question is if splash, with a bigger, better bearing, is good enough to outlast other weak links in the chain.

Anyone doing the job from scratch should really look at the DOF.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Some possible instances where there could be too much oil and/or lubrication:
1. Oil aeration because of crankshaft agitation.
2. Delayed or improper break-in honing of cylinder walls.
3. Oil getting past whatever should be keeping it out of the intake tracts. (?)
4. The oil washing the original grease packing in a so-called sealed bearing.
Other than that, and specific to DOF, this admittedly non-engineer figures the more oil, the merrier.

Porsche had lotsa engineering talent, money, computing power, money, time, money, a jillion years of person-years of experience, and vault of cool films showing their product blasting around race tracks (compared to the indys out there) and they deemed their design fit. It wasn't fit.

Just because all we have is "logic" and "reason" not backed hard data does not mean that Pedro and all the indys are selling snake oil or crap. I give them all credit and am fascinated at the evolution of their thinking. Will the current, DOF designs be deemed poor in a few years? Maybe. But I doubt it. Why do I doubt it? I never thought a sealed bearing in a critical engine shaft was a good thing.... I was shocked when I first heard they used a sealed bearing.

I few months ago, I had the opportunity to see a 60s era Ferrari sedan's engine torn completely apart. The shaft with plain bearings and force fed oil, cams etc, all with constant oil flow looked perfect. I could see no signs of wear. Everything else on that car looked like a heap o' crap but the engine internals looked brand new to my eye. Why anyone would use a sealed bearing is........ sorry, there I go using logic and reason again.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I agree with Bruce. IMHO Pedro's solution is the only one that follows what I naively consider to be actual common sense. Everything I ever read about the IMS failures was that the grease seal failed and let oil into the bearing, whereupon it just washed out the grease and got basically stagnant and eventually failed. And as I recall, it was on Jake Raby's or LN's website that I saw this. The LN solution is no doubt a better bearing, and no doubt splash lubrication is better than a grease seal failure, but OTOH the main problem was not the bearing itself, it was the lubrication. It seems to me to be good common sense that pumping oil onto the bearing has got to be better than just hoping it gets lubricated with splash (although if someone could say definitively that the IMS sits IN the crankcase oil, I might have to take that back). Dunno why that information is so darned hard to come by.

Regardless, Pedro's solution happens to be the only solution I've seen for those of us with later-model Boxsters/Caymans with the IMS that can't be replaced without engine teardown. My 08 is a very low mileage garage queen. I understand that the best thing is to drive the car as often and as far as I can, but ... I bought the car to be a garage queen. It's a weekend fun car for good weather. I do not live in Southern California (I wish) and I do not WANT to subject my beautiful car to all the dirt, rock, cinders, rain, ice,snow and assorted other crap on the road in my daily commute around here, nor do I want some @$$hole to ding my car door in the parking garage. I want my garage queen, I just don't want it to blow up on me. My understanding is that the last-generation IMS bearing was actually quite robust although Porsche still never addressed the lubrication issue and now we are starting to see failures in these cars as well This is scary, and this being the case, Pedro's solution seems to be the most likely way I address this risk. With lubrication, logically speaking my more-robust IMS should then be just about bulletproof. Yes, I understand that the risk with the OEM setup is already very slight, but taking even that slight risk when the cost could be $20K to fix seems dumb when I could spend $2K or less to make the risk pretty much go away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2013 11:34PM by paulwdenton. (view changes)

Quote
paulwdenton
It seems to me to be good common sense that pumping oil onto the bearing has got to be better than just hoping it gets lubricated with splash (although if someone could say definitively that the IMS sits IN the crankcase oil, I might have to take that back). Dunno why that information is so darned hard to come by.

When a 986/987/996/997 engine has oil to the correct level, is not running and is in level ground approximately 25-30 % of the IMS bearing is immersed in oil.
Once the engine starts, the oil pumps start to pull oil into the pickup tubes and pump it through the filter and oiling paths, the level drops a bit, but it is now churning because the engine's components are now moving. Here is when the splash term is applicable.
But again, keep in mind that when you accelerate, the oil inside of the engine will be pushed to the back of the engine case, raising the level in the back and lowering it in the front, the inverse is true during braking. The front of the engine has a higher oil level than the rear.
So the Boxster/Cayman gets more oil splash during acceleration and almost nothing under braking.
This is only true for bearings that have no outer seal. Sealed bearings have to depend on their internal grease (or lack thereof) for lubrication.
The Carrera, because its engine is backwards as compared to the Boxster's or Cayman's, gets no oil under acceleration an more splash under braking.
In either case there are times that the bearing runs almost dry. What makes things worse is that the bearing tends to she'd oil because of its movement (centrifugal force).
Hope this explanation helps to explain the oil level and bearing immersion a bit.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

I've heard that, once the engine is turning, the seal-removed bearing isn't so much lubricated by splash or immersion as by a mist in the crankcase. I presume it is the same pressurized mist of air mixed with oil the AOS filters. And pressurized would mean forced through the bearing.

Any comment?

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
I've heard that, once the engine is turning, the seal-removed bearing isn't so much lubricated by splash or immersion as by a mist in the crankcase. I presume it is the same pressurized mist of air mixed with oil the AOS filters. And pressurized would mean forced through the bearing.

Any comment?

The oil mist in the crankcase is not pressurized (unless your piston rings are really bad).
If there was positive pressure, when you open the oil cap or pull out the dipstick you would get a rush of this mist coming out and what you actually get is air coming in due to the vacuum.
The vacuum created by the intake there's Venturi effect is what pulls the mist through the AOS.
There is no way that this mist would offer any significant amount of lubrication to the IMS bearing.
This mist is not made of just air and oil, it also carries carbon particles (from blow-by) as well as gasoline fumes neither of which are good lubricants.
That's why a metered stream of cooled, filtered oil is so important.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

My personal opinion is that a sealed bearing, especially a single row sealed bearing, was a defective design when used in the M96 IMS application. For this reason, I believe the proposed IMS settlement is inadequate and plan to object. I hope others do too.

That said, I see two reasonable apple to apple price level pathways for dealing with the IMS problem in 97-2005 Boxsters. Price level one: for roughly $1500 to $1700 in parts, install either (a) DOF along with a new unsealed ceramic bearing or (b) install a direct oil fed plain bearing. Price level two: for roughly $700 to $800 in parts, install (a) a new unsealed splash lubricated ceramic bearing or (b) install DOF after removing the seal from the car's existing bearing.

If the two choices within each price level pathway offer the same expected operating lifetimes, then the decision on option which to choose truly becomes one of personal preference. On the other hand, if one of the choices within a price level pathway offers a significantly longer operating life than its counterpart, I'd like to know that as well as the fact basis for making that claim. Hence my longevity question and my observation that in the absence of bearing wear data or real world statistics my longevity question cannot be answered objectively.

Each person has their own calculus for deciding which IMS fix to choose. My calculus is simple: because all options have roughly the same labor cost, my decision comes down to the price of the parts and their expected post installation operating lifetimes.

Quote

That said, I see two reasonable apple to apple price level pathways for dealing with the IMS problem in 97-2005 Boxsters. Price level one: for roughly $1500 to $1700 in parts, install aeither (a) DOF along with a new unsealed ceramic bearing or (b) install a direct oil fed plain bearing. Price level two: for roughly $700 to $800 in parts, install (a) a new unsealed splash lubricated ceramic bearing or (b) install DOF after removing the seal from the car's existing bearing.

... I don't know where you get the information you are referring to above.
Since day one, the DOF Kits (all three of them) have been offered at $799.99.
If you also want to replace the IMS bearing, those prices are:
OEM Single-row steel bearing (outer seal removed) ... $49.99
OEM Double-row steel bearing (outer seal removed) .. $99.99
Single-row ceramic bearing (out seal removed) ..........$199.99
Double-row ceramic bearing (outer seal removed) ..... $219.99

Happy DOF'ing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

The basis for my numbers is...
IMS Solution (the plain bearing fix) $1700
DOF $800
LN Retrofit (ceramic bearing) $700

Since those prices are, I presume, without labor pricing and since The Solution is only I think currently available from one source and their price includes labor and labor hours and rates may be somewhat different for the various approaches...

Also the kits are not quite apples to apples, are they, as they include different parts? When DOF quotes a bearing price isn't it the bearing alone and not any other parts? Where LN includes other parts and Pelican still an other selection of parts.

I think the better view is a parts cost and typical labor hours table but even that is somewhat incomplete/misleading as the bill the car owner gets may or may not include a new clutch, RMS, Tiptronic adder, AOS while we are in there, etc. Plus labor hours and rates vary.

We have also no included the Pelican non-ceramic kit in the discussion.

Also I'd be curious to hear why approach a doesn't include the parts approach b thought necessary. Why does approach c think, for example, that Porsche supplied bolts are sufficient when approach d has said they have been seen to fail and thus supposedly better parts are supplied with kit d. This thinking that the kits weren't exactly the same was behind my attempt to put together a table of differences when Pelican and LN were the only offerings.

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Since those prices are, I presume, without labor pricing and since The Solution is only I think currently available from one source and their price includes labor and labor hours and rates may be somewhat different for the various approaches.../quote]

It just so happened that last week I asked my local independent what the price was for the IMS Solution kit. He looked it up online with the distributor and told me $1700. Today, I looked on the Pelican Parts site and saw it offers the IMS Solution kit for $1906. The numbers I included in my two recent notes only included the prices of the DOF, LN Retrofit and IMS Solution kits.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 05:24PM by thom4782.

(view changes)

Quote
mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC
Also the kits are not quite apples to apples, are they, as they include different parts? When DOF quotes a bearing price isn't it the bearing alone and not any other parts? Where LN includes other parts and Pelican still an other selection of parts.

The DOF IMS bearing kit includes everything:
Bearing, Support Shaft with O-rings and Nut, and Securing Clip.
The customer orders single or double row (depending on the car model year), and has a choice of steel or ceramic.



Happy DOF'ing
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna