Re: This is happening to every car on the planet. Porsche, despite its moves is among the holdouts that

I cant find the thread (they age so quickly...), but i commented that the systems are often low pass filters, for various reasons - mostly the speed of the feedback (reaction) loop.

I just read the entire article, and yep - it says so in different words:

"According to my inside man the big issue with EPAS is the inherently greater friction in the system (there are more moving parts) and increased inertia. And as a result the higher frequency feedback to the palm of your hands is masked and you don't have that same intuitive sense of what the front wheels are up to. Worse than that, word has it that Porsche has decided to filter out that higher frequency 'information' with its EPAS system for a smoother feel."

So it has a natural low frequency response, and then they make it worse - whcih can be un-done.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

What they don't tell you is what frequency range they are talking about. For example.... a ridge in the road (along the path of travel) would be a low frequency jar felt as a pull. That same ridge across your path, a bang, would be a higher frequency bump. That still may be within their acceptable range. A high frequency that I would not want in the system would be electric motor or gear buzz..... I would want that filtered out as it is not part of the "natural" road experience. I guess I just have to drive one to be sure but I definitely don't like the idea of this electric drive system.

Overall, this separation of driver from car is disappointing to me. I have to admit that their fly-by-wire throttle is very good but then what do I know anymore, I haven't driven a cable-to-throttle car in a long time. What is next? A sensor driven shifter stick where you can't feel the gears engage but merely trigger a solenoid..... hey wait, that is tiptronic/PDK!!!!

I am relatively new to Porsche with only two cars of ownership, a 2000 Boxster S and a 2009 C2S and neither of these were the air cooled car that made them world famous. In just these two examples, they numbed the car more with my newer model. The Boxster was much more fun to drive than my 2009 C2S. My C2S is just a rocket-powered GT cruiser.... it feels heavy and numb compared to the Boxster. I can't imagine what it would have been to drive a 1960s era car (do I really want that? Hmmmm.....).

One last rant about my C2S and Porsche's direction: The door in my C2S is heavy.... I mean really heavy. I have to push to get it open and have to grab it hard to keep it flying into the car next to me. This was/is a classic trick of big American Iron to give the buyer of a big luxury car a feeling that they are getting "more". I don't want this in a Porsche.... this is clear evidence that they are ...whatever....

Peace
Bruce in Philly

solid feel.

A bit extreme? Get some sleep.

The issue is that sports cars.... by common definition..... are light, maneuverable, and quick. Someone wrote something like "you could race it if you had to" as a definition of a sports car. The image of the 911 is this and deservedly so... in the past. I believe the doors on my 2009 C2S are intentionally heavy to be part of a luxury market experience and not the consequence of a sports car design objective. I believe, and I admit I could be wrong here, is that the door was purposely made heavy as the image buyer expects that for his/her money. This is not what I expected when I "upgraded" to one of the world's sports car icons. Note "sports car icons". Luxury is OK by me, as long as it doesn't interfere too much with the sports car driving experience. Weight, particularly weight added for marketing purposes, is a real disappointment to me.

If you want power, prestige, and comfort for highway driving, nothing beats weight, a big engine, and a long wheel base. This is not in the definition of a sports car.

Others are doing it.... BMW's M3 is a lead brick. Powerful and fast but a big dead, lead brick. Oh well....... Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world measured on a profit per unit basis.... they must be doing something correctly as they are serving their investors well. I do suspect they are cashing in on their old, hard won image and with so much prosperity coming on-line in the world, big fake boobs sell. Image buyers far outstrip performance buyers.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

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Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S)
A bit extreme? Get some sleep.

The issue is that sports cars.... by common definition..... are light, maneuverable, and quick. Someone wrote something like "you could race it if you had to" as a definition of a sports car. The image of the 911 is this and deservedly so... in the past. I believe the doors on my 2009 C2S are intentionally heavy to be part of a luxury market experience and not the consequence of a sports car design objective. I believe, and I admit I could be wrong here, is that the door was purposely made heavy as the image buyer expects that for his/her money. This is not what I expected when I "upgraded" to one of the world's sports car icons. Note "sports car icons". Luxury is OK by me, as long as it doesn't interfere too much with the sports car driving experience. Weight, particularly weight added for marketing purposes, is a real disappointment to me.

If you want power, prestige, and comfort for highway driving, nothing beats weight, a big engine, and a long wheel base. This is not in the definition of a sports car.

Others are doing it.... BMW's M3 is a lead brick. Powerful and fast but a big dead, lead brick. Oh well....... Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world measured on a profit per unit basis.... they must be doing something correctly as they are serving their investors well. I do suspect they are cashing in on their old, hard won image and with so much prosperity coming on-line in the world, big fake boobs sell. Image buyers far outstrip performance buyers.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

An M3 is a hot sedan. It's not a sports car. The doors, I believe, in a 911 are heavy (and they've always been heavy) because it's part of the overall structure of the car. Porsches are built solid, likely because it affects chassis rigidity, which in turn, affects the precision of handling that the engineers were seeking.

I concur with you that sports cars should be light, maneuverable and quick. And Porsches, have been lighter, but have become porkier due to the structural concerns, plus on-going safety standards. I'd add, however, that sports cars should be highly communicative in their driver interface. That's starting to go sideways in most cars today.

...still gets driver involvement. I do think that part of the difference is the 911 vs the 981/986. Porsche knows the cross section of buyers differs. Few buy a Boxster as a status symbol (Porsche with panties, anyone?).

The other problem is that Porsche once sold to a select group who sought out an uncommon little car that delivered on real performance and was different. No more. Now Porsche is the status quo, bought (i'll bet) mainly by relatively wealthy professionals who may want the sports car they can finally have, but also wan the prestige, and won't give up some creature comforts on their way to and from work and the golf club.

The result? A healthy and widely support brand, but one that must dilute itself.

BTW if you thought your old Boxster was raw and communicative, try it now :-)

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

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grant
...still gets driver involvement. I do think that part of the difference is the 911 vs the 981/986. Porsche knows the cross section of buyers differs. Few buy a Boxster as a status symbol (Porsche with panties, anyone?).

The other problem is that Porsche once sold to a select group who sought out an uncommon little car that delivered on real performance and was different. No more. Now Porsche is the status quo, bought (i'll bet) mainly by relatively wealthy professionals who may want the sports car they can finally have, but also wan the prestige, and won't give up some creature comforts on their way to and from work and the golf club.

The result? A healthy and widely support brand, but one that must dilute itself.

BTW if you thought your old Boxster was raw and communicative, try it now :-)

Grant

Porsche gets driver involvement in fewer and fewer of their line of cars. Driven a Cayenne? A Panamera? These are high performance cars no doubt, but there is little in them to suggest driver involvement. Porsche used to stand head and shoulders above other brands -- in fact, when I got my '03 986, there were few cars that could match its performance and driver involvement. Today, Porsche through market demands, and needing/wanting to make a less expensive car, have changed the feel. Real performance is frankly up, and much more attainable by less skilled drivers (think late '70s 911s), but it's up across the board. Even the domestic brands are making some pretty fine high limit cars, when ten years ago, sloppy handling, poor quality control and brute engines were the rule. So, the dilution of the Porsche ethos and the rising tides of the competition have reduced the head and shoulders margin.

This was inevitable for Porsche's survival. Porsches are actually now quite affordable, on a relative basis. A loaded Jeep Grand Cherokee will outprice a Boxster -- in fact, a Chrysler 300M SRT8 base is about the same as a Boxster base, and there is nothing 'exclusive' in the Jeep or the SRT8. They are cheaper to make, because of modern manufacturing, and that has also distilled the uniqueness of each model.

I was speaking with a friend who is a used car dealer -- he has an old BMW Z3 -- four cylinder, stick -- says it's one of the most fun cars on his lot.

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Bruce In Philly (2000 S Boxster, now '09 C2S)


I am relatively new to Porsche with only two cars of ownership, a 2000 Boxster S and a 2009 C2S and neither of these were the air cooled car that made them world famous. In just these two examples, they numbed the car more with my newer model. The Boxster was much more fun to drive than my 2009 C2S. My C2S is just a rocket-powered GT cruiser.... it feels heavy and numb compared to the Boxster. I can't imagine what it would have been to drive a 1960s era car (do I really want that? Hmmmm.....).


Peace
Bruce in Philly

Your 2009 911S is 1.5 generations newer than your old Boxster--based on the fact a lot of parts from the 986 were shared with the 996; that provides good evidence, I think, where the brand is going (GT cruiser), save the GT3/Turbo S. It would be nice if they could expand the line for a regular model like the Spyder/Cayman R for those that want the rawer feeling in a performance car but maybe the market isn't big enough for that.

Regarding the 60's era performance cars, my memory is fading--got rid of the last one in '88'--but I do recall driving driving a '66' GTO a while back and while it was fun, the steering was way light ( power assist) and had zero feel. The alternative was was unassisted power steering and on a 3600lb. car it was really heavy at street speeds.
Having said that, later 60's/early 70's 911s had no power steering, weighed around 2500lb. and from reports had the steering response I think we'd all appreciate.

I saw a few weeks ago, a 914 on the street. A friend of mine had one (first person I knew who had a Porsche), and a teacher of mine in high-school also had one (a really hot looking blonde that was about six years older than me....) I thought that car was awesome. I doubt this would ever happen, but just imagine, a mid-engined RWD targa (targa for rigidity) 6 speed, about 2750lbs curb weight, reincarnation of a 914. The engine could be pulled off the VW corporate line (the 2.0T), mechanical steering (don't laugh -- with a lighter car, you won't need it as much), and the go-kart feel.

Oh, I think I just described a Lotus Elise....

If i had more energy i juts might try it. We'll see.

Rack out of a, say 964 (or old VW scirocco!), and some tie rods with lots of adjust-ability. How to mate to the steering and maintain safety would be a big concern of mine...

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

[4.bp.blogspot.com]

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grant
If i had more energy i juts might try it. We'll see.

Rack out of a, say 964 (or old VW scirocco!), and some tie rods with lots of adjust-ability. How to mate to the steering and maintain safety would be a big concern of mine...

Grant

I had an old VW Scirocco -- it was one my dream cars, and I was thrilled when I finally got one. It had manual steering that was stiff in parking, but had the most incredibly direct steering. Loved the car.