I would also document what Marc recommends in a letter to your Volvo contact...

Hey - Bear with me as this is not Boxster-related but anyone with experience with lemon law, please advise.

I bought a 2012 Volvo S60 in January 2012. In January 2013, I was driving on the connector here in Atlanta and suddenly the motor seized and over-rode the brakes. Fortunately I was able to get to the side of the highway. Had the car towed to the dealer who could find nothing wrong and sent me on my way.

In Sept 2013 it happened again in an intersection - I almost hit the guy in front of me. Again, I turned off the ignition, started again and got home. Brought to the dealer. They replaced the brakes. I thought this was a reasonable solution.

In Nov 2013 it happened again and this time my husband was in the car - it happened in an intersection and I almost hit the guy in front of me. We brought the car to the dealer and they could find no codes to determine what happened. Key thing: my husband said the tach went up to 7 while the engine revved and the brakes fought to stop the car.

Dealer cannot find the problem. I file a lemon law against Volvo, retaining a lemon law lawyer. Lemon Law lawyer tells me that Volvo says there's nothing they can do because there are no codes showing up in the computer. They said I must have had my foot on both the break and gas at the same time (physically impossible)

To me, it is clear that this is a computer problem.

Local Volvo mechanic cannot check because they don't have newest software. The problem is so intermittent that it is impossible to reproduce the issue. Volvo offers $4000 settlement and I owe 2 more years on the lease.

What would you do? Thanks in advance. Mer

... move to Florida.
Shoot it dead ad then tell Volvo you feared for your life

Happy Shooting
Pedro

PS: I don't know enough about Lemon Law so I can't offer any other advise.

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

to see if there are any other reported similar problems? Also, you should file a complaint with them.

Good luck

I filed a complaint with them after the 1st time it happened.

Your vehicle should have an 'event data recorder', which is used to log data (throttle & brake position, etc) to help reconstruct accident scenarios. A limited amount of data is logged, and it may not be there at all since you didn't actually have an accident (e.g. airbag deploy, etc), but perhaps something can be pulled from it to help with your experience.

See [www.rimkus.com] for details.

Full disclosure: Not to gainsay your perception of the event, but there are likely other factors, and IMHO could be driver error. I've watched the Audi (1980's), and Toyota (recent) fiascos, and in every case the issue was brake/throttle misapplication, not some ghost in the machine. Remember, you've got '500hp' brakes - and require simultaneous failure of two systems to occur. Best of luck with a resolution.

that even on the cheapest car, the brakes are typically 3X+ stronger than the motor. That's why cars take 1/4 mile (and 15-20 sec) to get to 80 mph, but only a few hundred feet to get back to zero.

That said, the complication is that a motor can continue to pull at 100% for minutes or maybe hours. Brakes will overheat in a tiny fraction of that.

Its not necessarily an overt driver error - in our car control clinics we have to teach most porsche owners (who are certainly in the top X%) how hard they can -- and must - use their brakes. Most people have never used more than a small fraction of the braking potential. And even if you do regularly "lock 'em up", with a motor pulling at 100%, you may need to double THAT pressure.

Lesson: in any panic situation: stand on the brakes, stall the motor, wipe your brow and change your undies.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I am not a lawyer but $4k seems way too low. They should pay out your lease and pay you for your mental anguish.

Get a good lawyer. Chances are he will be able to negotiate a much better deal. That's his job.

He said Volvo is usually ok to deal with ... he also said that I can probably negotiate for more if I decide to settle.

To reiterate, my husband witnessed the last event - I was so glad. I did second-guess myself the first time it happened, but in November it was very clear that the engine was over-riding the brakes.

I agree with you Boxsterra - they should pay the remainder payments on my lease at the very least. Unfortunately, lawyers don't give you much for mental anguish... but there certainly has been some....

He's driving it up to a different Volvo dealer tomorrow and we'll talk to the tech about it, the symptoms, what the other service team did. Wish me luck!

A good lawyer should be able to scare the pants off them with concerns that he will prevail in court. Just avoiding PR makes it worth a fair amount for them to settle with you. And the cost of going to court for them is something they will want to avoid, especially if your lawyer has some compelling arguments.

You can always get a consult with another lawyer. Aggressive and persistent lawyers can accomplish a lot, especially when they are paid on a contingency basis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2014 09:51AM by Boxsterra. (view changes)

I'd take the money and run based on what you described...you cannot reproduce the problem and I would not want to drive the car...

Negotiations 101. Whether you get a lawyer or not, you need to strongly state your case and re-state your case and start escallating within Volvo (LinkedIn is your friend) and perhaps state consumer agencies and the feds.

I had a disasterous river cruise in Eastern Europe last year. I took until the 4th offer (from the EVP of Marketing, not some lowly customer service lackey) before they made a reasonable offer and I would come off my position and settle with the cruise line. It probably took 3 months to get to the point of a reasonable settlement, and I was blasting emails to half a dozen VP's and the CEO and CFO.

One is you must state that due to this behavior you have lost all enjoyment and pleasure from owning and using the vehicle.

Not only that but because of its erratic and scary behavior you are afraid to drive it for the risk you feel it puts you at and those of any passengers, if you would even now consider carrying passengers. In fact you fear for safety of other vehicles and people on the road so you can't drive the car.

The car is thus of no use to you.

And you can't sell the car or trade it in knowing the car has some serious safety problem.

Also, you have to stress that the dealer owes you a reasonable degree of skill, experience, knowledge, and care in maintaining and servicing your vehicle. This is one reason you bought the car in the first place from this dealer, or at any rate from a Volvo dealer, to get the benefit -- as was stated to you at the time you were shopping for the car and making up your mind which car to buy -- of the dealer and its service department with the factory trained techs and in the worst case a direct line of communication with the factory should a real puzzle of an issue arise, like the one that has arisen.

The dealer can't just throw up its hands at the reports you make and you can't continue to drive the car because of the risk at which you feel the car and its behavior puts you.

If the dealer insists there is nothing wrong with the car have this put into writing, on official letterhead, in a letter from the dealer and from Volvo, that the car is safe to drive.

Otherwise, the car is useless to you and you are clearly a victim of consumer fraud.

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Also make a call (FU with letter too?) to the U.S. CEO of Volvo Cars of North America LLC.

It used that method for another product failure (Sony). I did not speak to the CEO of Sony, but his executive assistant called me back promptly and the matter was resolved to my satisfaction.

[investing.businessweek.com]


Good luck.

Thanks guys. I have documented pretty much all of that as part of filing for the lemon law. Letters, copies of service reports, etc... I have great paperwork - the problem is that it's nearly impossible to reproduce because it is so sporadic - since Volvo has been unable to reproduce it, they can claim it's my fault.

I'm hoping that taking it to another dealer will help in that they 1) can't charge me for driving the hell out of it and 2) might have more incentive to reproduce it since the "original" dealer could not.

What I don't understand is why they would offer me $$$ to settle if they think it is my fault. Baffles me.

One thing I didn't mention: If I go to arbitration, state my case and lose, I forfeit any settlement $$$.

I really appreciate your advice - thanks for the thoughts, ideas and insight. Mer

1. Lemon Law......the long and winding road. Lots of paperwork, follow-up, aggravation, time but can be done. Persistence. Took Jaguar x-type back ( aka Ford Taurus with nice hood emblem and awd) after constant badgering.
2. Volvo = Chinese ownership......run for the hills.
3. MB overall better/safer car.

Good luck!

Toyota back in 2012 paid $1.1B to settle lawsuits regarding unintended acceleration issues with its vehicles. It also paid a $17.5M fine levied by the NHTSA related to this, related to Toyota waiting too long to report the issue that led to a series of recalls.

In addition Toyota put $250M into a fund for former owners who sold their cars or leased them to compensate them for the reduced value of their vehicles due to the negative publicity.

While Toyota claimed the behavior was the fault of floor mats that become trapped under the pedal Toyota announced a series of recalls involving millions of cars some with potentially defective accelerator pedal assemblies.

Based on what happened to Toyota, Volvo's exposure potentially is much greater than just you and your car.

I would tell the story to an investigative reporter, TV or print. Stress that this car needs to be taken off the road because it is a hazard to public safety. If Volvo buys the car back and sells it to someone else, it would only be a matter of time before there is an accident resulting is possible injury or death to an innocent party.

All kidding aside, I sincerely hope that you get everything resolved to your satisfaction. You did the right thing by moving on to the Boxster.

Kind regards, -rick.

[www.antony-anderson.com]

"6. Sudden unintended acceleration incidents have occurred with all makes of automobiles. Toyota and Volvo have the highest incidence rates and General Motors has the lowest incidence rate.5

7. Sudden unintended acceleration occurs rarely. The incident rate is less than 12 incidents per 100K vehicles
(<120 ppm).5


[www.autosafety.org]

You might think of contacting your US House representative and use this reference as backup. Explain that the NHTSB can collect reports, but in cases such as yours where there is a rare but known defect which leaves no trace of evidence that there is no mechanism to remove the car from service.

The second Volvo service manager reported to me today that they simply can't reproduce it, which is the frustrating thing about this throttle/computer issue. Volvo Corporate has upped their settlement offer (I'm holding out for a little more) and I can transfer the lease to a potential customer via swapalease.com (I've already worked it out with the bank and swapalease - I just need to pull the trigger.

I feel crappy doing it (someone else could potentially suffer greatly being unaware of the issue), but at this point, I have little choice.I certainly don't want to make payments on a car I won't drive.

Protracted disputes are seldom worth it, especially when there's a more or less acceptable offer on the table.

After more than 30 year of doing litigation, I can tell you that there's a significant emotional cost associated with lengthy disputes particularly where one of the parties is an individual.

Volvo's not quite making me whole, but they're willing to accept some responsibility. At some point, unless you can really prove it, you have to make a decision that you're either going to fight to the bitter end or get on with your life. I may lose some $$, minimal if I can resell, but I'd rather put it behind me.

Just bothers me that Volvo won't take responsibility for what is clearly a lemon. They don't have that many and they can suck it up, but I'm not an attorney so I see it from a different angle.

Thanks.

There is a lot to be said for negotiating your best deal and moving on; I have friends that gotten into long terms disputes over stuff--cars, property,etc.--and can take on a life of it's own and cause a lot of stress. Life is too short for that--best of luck with it.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

I've given this a bit more thought. Mer is correct. The responsibility is Volvo's, whether they admit it or not. If this car is involved in an accident in the future I just hope a lawyer gets involved who is smart enough to investigate the history of the car. Volvo could be hit with a big judgment if it can be shown they were aware of the problem.

Quote
SteveJ (2010 987 base, manual trans)
I've given this a bit more thought. Mer is correct. The responsibility is Volvo's, whether they admit it or not. If this car is involved in an accident in the future I just hope a lawyer gets involved who is smart enough to investigate the history of the car. Volvo could be hit with a big judgment if it can be shown they were aware of the problem.

Agree totally!

It would seem that Mer, knowing the safety issue and still selling her lease to another without full disclosure, would be just as liable, but without the deep pockets, of course. Personally I'd advise Volvo (Chinese owned) not to permit that car to say on the road it for financial reasons and Mer not to allow it for ethical ones.

Note that I'm neither an attorney nor a holy man, and I've never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

"A mile of highway will take you one mile. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."

Volvo Legal would rather see short-term, that they can't reproduce the problem, thus the problem doesn't exist. Buying me off solves the immediate problem, and saves them the cost of having to go to arbitration, which I would probably lose anyway without having codes to prove there's a problem.

Leaves me little choice but to ditch the car (I won't go into details as to what I'm doing in order to protect myself) - yes, I'll let someone else assume the problem. The only thing that I feel ok about is that it only happened in very slow traffic with my ability to put it in Park to stop it.

I've gotten some pushback from people telling me I shouldn't let anyone else buy/drive it etc... but I'm not willing to throw $13,000 away to be a saint. I'm simply not that person.

My report is on the NHTSA website. The fact that the brakes were replaced may even show up in a Carfax, I don't know.

I just want OUT.