Re: Agree. In my Audi (5HP24A) i do a "service" every 40k or so

My 2000 Tiptronic (106k miles) has had tranny failure. Kinda saw this coming....slight erratic shifting and undulations at steady speed for a while. Improved with fluid and filter change and then....badness. A whine followed by inability to shift into gear followed by CEL city.

The car is largely restored and updated. The list of new items over the last 2 years includes all suspension parts, motor and tranny mounts, EIC, throttle valve, water pump, upholstery, windshield, convertible top and a few things I've probably forgotten about.

Given what I have already put into it and the enjoyment i get out of it, I'd like to get it going again. What would you all do???? My options, I think, are as follows: 1) New Porsche tranny. $12460 + labor. Uh, no. 2) After market rebuilt. Vertex has one for $2900 + the R/R. Whose are good?? 3) Local rebuild. My indy shop in the DC area has a shop he uses for this that has given him good results. $3500 + R/R. 4) used tranny. Gary and friends at Oklahoma can surely find me one, and I could likely go through 2 used transmissions for the price of a rebuilt, but it is still used and of unknown status. 5) Give up and declare defeat.

What to do?? I know I should upgrade the intermediate main bearing while the tranny is out adding $800 to the cost of whatever i do. What would you all do????

Bummer. I have a Tip and though Tip failures seem to be rare sorry yours gave up on you.
This is a tough one since you have so much money already tied up in past repairs. Based on what some others have been able to get out of their motors, you may have 50-150K miles left.
If I where in your position and really loved my car and felt that everything else was in pretty good condition I would rebuild the tranny as my first choice.
From a financial standpoint your car is not worth much without a tranny so how much more would it cost you out of pocket to replace the car? Probably a lot more than a rebuild.
I would consider taking a chance on a used tranny only if it came from a low mileage car that was totaled from a front end collision.
If you go the rebuild route make sure there is a warranty and that the rebuilder has done a lot of these successfully.
You did not state why the tranny failed. Make sure you want that particular one rebuilt.
Good luck. Let us know what you decide.

I have a 2000 S with 104k miles so I'm paying close attention to your thread. Please post incremental updates as you progress with your car. I'm interested in which choices you make, how much things cost and how you get the work done once you've sourced the replacement tranny. Obviously I'm hoping things turn out well for you.

Where to start....

I'm the 2nd and 4th owner of this car. Odd story. On repurchasing it, I did the tip fluid and filter (then at about 80k). Did it again at 100K (just prior to the failure and, to be honest, because of some slipping symptoms).

I live in Virginia Beach but work M-F in Washington, DC (which is where the car is now). Taylor at German Auto does the work on the car (terrifically, I might add) and the rebuild shop locally is one whose work he is happy with. The warranty is of little use to me as I am moving across the country in the next 3 months. That partially explains the notion that I might be better off with a rebuilt unit from a national reputation shop like Vertex (where if it goes, it at least still is covered).

Everyone who notes that the time to tranny fluid change is too long is obviously correct. Less clear is what to do once you get to the point where you know you have waited too long. I think a 2nd change is the best call.

My plan is to go with a used unit IF someone like Gary at Oklahoma can come up with what appears to be a promising unit (relatively low miles and not from a rear wreck car). With new fluid and filter on install, of course. Failing that, a rebuild of my unit. Either way, with the IMB at the same time.

This has the makings of an expensive ecip... stay tuned.

LA Dismantlers. They specialize in Porsches.
They have a Tiptronic transmission listed. They say it is for an S but I think the transmission was common for the Carrera, Boxster and Boxster S.
Their manual transmissions were $1500 or less and they appear to be tested.You may be able to get back on the road for less than you thought.
National Geographic is doing a special on LA Dismantlers on May 12th at 10PM called "Porsche in Pieces"
Hope this helps. Keep us posted.

[www.ladismantler.com]

After a month, car is back. Rebuilt tip locally. 5K for the tip rebuild and an upgrade of the IMS + the RMS seal as well as an engine oil change. Much quieter - apparently new bearings are worth something. Lot of $$, but at least running well. If i wasn't flat out of $$ i would have thrown some new tranny mounts at it while apart.

My 02S tip only has 60K miles, but probably not worth much more than yours.

Given your situation, I would probably go with the local indy shop and their rebuild guy. The $600 more is probably worth the extra peace of mind. I am presuming you would get some kind of warranty on the work. If not, then I would probably consider the aftermarket rebuilt unit. And yes, I'd go ahead and to the intermediate shaft bearing while the tranny is out of the car.

Keep us posted!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 01:54PM by jg atl. (view changes)

I personally feel that the Porsche recommended oil change interval for the Tip tranny is way too long.
I did my first change at about 27,000 miles when I felt some slight slippage in the shifting. A fluid change corrected this and made the transmission feel much smoother.
If you plan to keep your car a long time and/or put mileage on it I would change the Tip fluid and filter in the tranny every 30,000 miles or five years at a minimum.
I routinely get 250-350,000 miles or more out of my Mercedes automatic transmissions by doing this. Transmissions are expensive, fluids changes cost much less.
My friend who owns an independent Ferrari shop says annual maintenance includes the replacement of all fluids, including transmission, regardless of mileage.

ZF failures are nothing new in the Audi world....i wonder why they last so much better in porsches. Less torque i suppose. The 5HP19 is the same unit used in many Audis, including the B5/C5 2.7 bi-turbo models. The Audis even have porsche licensed tip software.

Anyway, ZF does have a rebuild program, and some authorized re-builders. If you can get a true factory rebuild, that' probably the best quality. Cost TBD. After that you need to trade off an unknown factory rebuild (have you seen the $h1t that passes for rebuilt alternators, starters and calipers these days?) which *might* be great. Or not. Or you can go with the local guy, who may do a complete job, and may know what he's doing, or not. That's the kicker. Do you have a trusted local indie who's recommending the shop? The "go to guy" for the area. Around here i know who that is. Where are you?

Overall if the car' in good shape and you can get it back on the road for $3-4k, i think its a no-brainer to do so.

Since the tranny will be out, you might think about doing the IMS at the same time. $700 part plus the labor. Figure maybe another $500?? if the shop has done it before (tricky, though simple, work, requires special tools).

Grant

Chris, if the Tip really is a ZF 5HP19, the authorized ZF distributor in your area is Transtar in Norfolk.

ZF has a rebuild facility in Vernon Hills, IL and Transtar should be able to advise you about availability and prices for rebuilt unit.

rebuilt. I would avoid buying a rebuilt unit. I've covered this rebuild business before so I won't cover it again. But having your car's Tip rebuilt at least you know the transmission is basically sound and fits your car and requires no drivetrain controller upgrade or mod's to work. The risk comes from the shop that does the rebuild, how good is its work and how well the shop stands behind its work.

If you want to try a used Tip from some Porsche salvage yard, well, that's one option. But you run the risk of getting a Tip that is little better than the one you have.

Too late for you but this may help others: My tech sources tell me the best thing for a Tip is to change the Tip fluid early say at half the recommended mileage interval. IIRC this is every 160,000km or 100K miles. Then the change interval should be 50K miles. They tell me that if one goes too long without doing a Tip fluid change and then the Tip receives a fluid change, oftentimes failure follows soon after. Seems the Tip after a number of miles is better off on the old fluid after a certain point but even so the Tip may not be long for this world.

However, a Tip fluid change is often advised before just tossing in the towel on the transmission, so you did the right thing. Too bad it worked out the way it did.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Service means filter, drop/clean pan, drain free fluid (35-50% of total fluid) - do not flush.

Yes, it tends to lead to longer service lives.

However, one common failure mode (in the higher power Audi's anyway) is a marginally sized torque converter. no amount of fluid changes will alter that weak point.

I have seen very very few in the porsche world. I don't know why.

Grant

auto dealers here in Livermore are owned by the same family/company) that gave me the ''either change the Tip fluid 'early' or not at all'' advice.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Grant
The owners manual says that there are 10 liters of fluid in the tip tranny. Does that mean that you can only drain and change 5 liters (per your 50% )?

Joe

You actually dont want to change all of it. There has been much debate about a complete flush causing troubles since the fluid is suddenly so much more detergent. Do NOT flush (thought i said that) - simply drain what comes out when you drop the pan. Clean pan. replace filter.

Then, if you want to be really good, do another service 30-40k miles later - you will change another 50% - now you are at 75% changed ( the new change replaced 50% of the new and 50% of the old fluid since they are mixed).

Re-filling is a bit of a trick. At least on an Audi there is no dipstick, and refilling involves pumping fluid up a fill hole, with an internal column until the fluid reaches the top of that column and spills over, back down, generally into your face.

This must be done at "operating temp" - read with a scan tool, or with an IR thermo-gun. You cycle it through the gears until it hits temp.

Not that bad really. But i let the pros do it when its convenient. I hate running a car, in gear, on blocks.

The fludi is not that costly. As i recall something liek $10/L.

Grant

So I'm finally persuaded to go to my 50th high school reunion. decide to take the car that is most comfortable to my long suffering wife since she is accompanying me to meet a bunch of folk she doesn't know. Her Acura TL '01 70k been pretty good and very well maintained. Sanford to DC no problem except when I leave a gas stop about 200 miles into the trip I get a very abrupt shift. Several similar at rest stops. Get into the city and everything starts to slip and the revs climb every shift. I'm in a bad part of town, at night, totally confused by 50 years of changes, no option but to drive. Make the reunion only 15 minutes late. Great reunion...29 grads and 15 show, 4 no longer with us...my troubles are trivial. "Any problem you can buy your way out of isn't a big problem." Get in the car and drive to the motel and now trans light plus CEL shows. To make a long story shorter, have the car towed to a dealer and take the train back to Cary. Safely back home. Wasn't sure there.

Dealer has Sunday service hours. Receive call on train ... $7,200 to replace the trans. But maybe since this failure is the exact failure that was the occasion for a recall this dealer performed 7 years ago (and for mine they deemed it didn't need the fix) if I fax my service receipts (no Acura doesn't have a central repository of service history, every dealer is in competition so they don't share info), they may be able to do something for me. Today call AAMCO (I had dealt with them before when my son's Mazda needed a $4k trans per dealer and they fixed it for a speed sensor for $200) and they will rebuild the trans for no more than $2.500-$3,800 and guarantee 3/36k

My wife is now saying I don't trust the car. It is 10 years old and 70k. We can afford it so I went car shopping today. First Ford dealer had none of the cars I was interested in, no brochures, no ability on their web site to comparison shop a list of features, no ability to order individually items that come in a package (we hate sunroofs). Next Buick brand dealer, 100% organized, options individually orderable.

How do Ford dealers stay in business when the Chevy/Buick dealers give such a better presentation?

Why isn't the participation in a brand wide history system mandatory for a dealership?

Decision points...

33 MPG for $23k (Fusion)

28 MPG for $30k but much nicer (Regal)

27 MPG for #2 $31k but turbo with 1-2 less MPG (Regal)

or 26 MPG with bigger fancier car for $35k (LaCrosse)

Isn't it fun owning these conveniences.

I'd voted $4k, replace the transmission. Did that on my 03 TL at about 130k miles. Now have 150K miles and still going over 80 on the New Jersey turnpike! The transmission was a rebuilt from these guys: [www.jasperengines.com]

It has a 3 year, 100k mile warranty. So far, so good. Not sure I'd take it cross country (we have a newer car for that), but I don't hesitate to take it to New York or to NOVA all the time.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

employees and web development probably took a big hit. When people are walking in and buying your cars up as quick as they have been who needs the web? (Just kidding...)

The lack of brand wide history from dealer to dealer is I think the maker's doing. This could allow someone to mine the data and determine incidents of the various repairs, etc. Some consumer/government agencies in various regions have pushed for this infor from the automakers but all automakers push back very hard claimng this information company confidential.

I have no experience with any of the cars above you name, save for a 2009 or 2010 Ford Fusion I rented in July of 09 in Colorado to use after my Turbo disabled. The Fusion was a surprisingly good car. I do not remember the engine size but I think it had the bigger engine which I tend to favor when I rent cause I hate thrashing an under powered large(er) car with a smallish engine about. Car had AWD too, or at least could have been had with that feature. Overall I was rather impressed with the car. Mileage wasn't bad. Mid to high 20's on the freeway, around 1400 miles overall between Denver and KC Mo and back again.

But check out the Buicks.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

This really sounds like a one-time glitch in a car that otherwise is great. An 01 Acura TL with only 70K miles and a working transmission ought to be a really good car, especially since you are so good at maintaining vehicles. Anyway, wouldn't you still have to fix the Acura transmission even if you bought a new car? Otherwise, how would you sell or trade it? Once you have fixed the Acura transmission, it ought to be good for a long time to come.

By comparison, the granny Camry I inherited from my parents is a 1997 that also has 70K miles. It's 4 years older than your Acura and also well-maintained, and I'm taking it as my daily driver and commuter for medium trips. I have confidence to do this because it's been well maintained AND has no record of failures. Like you, I'd quickly lose confidence if it had a transmission failure, but really that is only one failure over more than a decade. Not really proof of unreliability. That's why I think your situation with the Acura is mainly psychological. But hey, I loooove new cars so I totally understand.

For new cars, have you looked at a Subaru Legacy? You can get your Boxer engine with 4WD in a vehicle that has outstanding reliability records according to Consumer Reports, and I think it's made in America, too.

From a financial standpoint, spending $2.5k to $3.8k on a car that then only needs its PS fluid flushed and nothing else is the right move. The dealer said Acura would cover 20% but that didn't make sense emotionally (and cost Acura a new car sale).

But when your wife says she doesn't want to ever drive the car again and she just accompanied you to your high school reunion on her birthday and you have no other great ideas for a present for her...sometimes financial logic is unimportant. Oh, by the way, the car was a Xmas present on a similar occasion with left me driving her 10 year old mini-van for a few years. There are reasons we have been married 38 years....

We'll see in a week or so when I go back to DC on the train and drive it back here if she wants to trade for new. I think from the way she is looking at the brochures I bring her that the train has left the station.

As someone who has been married for 32 years, I get it. I mentioned we have a car for long trips, well she drives the 2010 Acura RDX which is now our family travel car. The TL is my car.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;