Re: High Mileage and Car Quality - musings

Just some observations......(plus I am killing some time).

Chatting with a friend, we were talking about premium cars and what you really get for you money. My opinion, given my experience growing up with American iron and, in particular, my Dad's Cadillacs, more money just got you more car but not more quality. The water pumps were all made to the same specs and would fail at around 40K miles. Ball joints, exhausts, etc. etc. and how GM got those knobs to all break off at just the same time..... When and if you had a car that hit 100K miles, it was a big deal and the cars were pretty beat with cracked dashes, sagging bumpers... well if you are my age or older (51) you know what I am talking about.

Then came the Japanese! Growing up in a western PA, union steel town, I remember the vitriol! The hate! The public smashing of a Hondas and Toyotas! Then came...well what didn't come was more important... repairs! The Japanese cars were built better. Then came the American car companies blaming everyone but themselves then blaming their own workers for shoddy work! Anyway, you know the stories. Now, due to the competition, all cars are higher quality than ever before and the number of "foreign" cars buzzing around my old (near deserted) steel town is surprising.

Now what does this have to do with our Porsches? Well, my 2000 S had its share of problems such as a blown engine at 47K miles.... but.... now at 176K miles, I am still driving it and loving it. The dash is not cracked, the bumpers do not sag, seats are not torn, and I just had a water pump replaced that lasted 130K miles! I have to wonder how long this car will last? Do we owe this to the Japanese? German culture of engineering? Do you really get more quality for premium cars?

See these pics I took in the fall around 6 months ago. Most of the paint is original, but due to a small accident in the front quarter panel, and then a cosmetic fix to pain chips the front hood, bumper and quarter panel were redone about 5-6 years ago. Anyway, not bad for now having 176K miles, driven 12 months of the year, and most of its life not even garaged (well kind of an overhang sort of.). I used McGuire's new Ultimate Compound with an orbital, and then Zaino.

[picasaweb.google.com]

Years ago, when I'd see a "Buy American" sign or bumper sticker, I'd always think, "Build American," like we did in WWII, then I'll consider buying American. Our manufacturing quality is on an upswing, and some of us here know that much of the finest audio equipment in the world is Made in USA.

On the lighter side, there's this:

[www.theonion.com]

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2011 03:48PM by Laz. (view changes)

I'd sure like to see USA make a comeback. Actually, I'm old enough to remember a time when the quality was quite good. 35 or 40 years ago, we would buy early sixties chevrolets to beat around in the winter, while the sports car was hibernating. Typically, they were really reliable..

In the '70's, the big three denied the potential of the imports. Management fought with the unions over the profits. And federal regulations for safety and emissions ate up a lot of attention for product development.

I work in the industry, and 200k miles on a car is not very rare anymore, including the American built cars.

the statement about federal regulations. The import brands had to deal with the same regulations, and would meet or beat them. Consider the 74 Porsche line: if I recall correctly they had increased displacement and power on regular grade fuel, and met the bumper requirements. A girlfriend's aunt's new 73 Chevy ran like s--- until I drove it to Disneyworld. She later remarked how nicely it ran after that. (Little did she know about the triple digits it hit on the Tamiami.) My father bought the only new car of his life, a 77 or 8 Chevy and the build quality was horrendous. The door hinges had no detents and you could slice your fingers open on a lot of the inner sheet metal. After landing at Omaha and being in the Battle of the Bulge he deserved better from his fellow Americans. It seems the domestics spent too much of their budgets on advertising bs, telling us how good their cars were. Domestic quality is, or is becoming comparable. There are still some stupid aesthetic and ergonomic issues, but we are definitely getting there.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 06:37PM by Laz. (view changes)

for a car with a pretty open mind and a lot of online and published information, the domestics are back. I was predisposed to a big-3 car this time (despite not buying one for the last 10 purchases) though the needs of my wife made that not work in the end. But the perceived quality and the ratings are now very even.

It was ergonomics that eventually drove the choice (a back window upright enough to see out of and side windows that weren't pinched for styling) and quietness which drove us to a segment of the available cars we weren't originally targeting. If you came on her car your immediate instinct would be to label it a "granny car" (which she is) but it got 28mpg highway on regular for 350 miles and has darn near all the creature comforts available at a reasonable price. And I haven't found anything not working yet and I've tried.

BTW, the recommended oil change interval is 5k on a Toyota Avalon.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 12:02PM by Laz. (view changes)

Its fun to watch "perception vs. reality. I agree with Laz first of all. But what's most interesting is how public perception lags reality by a lot. Int he 70s and 80s the imports were derided for both perceived quality issues and due to jingoism. how many people heard about "Jap crap". note that is two separate judgements, both of which were wrong by then.

Over time the Japanese brands came to represent what Detroit once was. the accepted standard for "car, generic, solid, trouble free, 1-each".
yet by the mid 200s many Detroit products had closed the gap - and in my opinion, the newest designed had surpassed the Tokyo howevermany. Cars like the Caddy CTS, CTS-V, vette, Malibu, Arcadia and the new large SUVs were excellent - and low maint. Ditto Fords of the last 5 years like the Fusion, New Focus, New Fiesta, etc. If only the General would build a mid-engine, tactile mini-vette.

yet most people never got the message. I submit its both a lag, and the same reason they resisted 25 years ago: prejudiced. Except this time its against the UAW leadership, Detroit management, and the "handout". They don't like those DamnYankees and prefer to buy from the Japanese they trust. plus ca change, plus c'est le meme chose.

Anyone who wants a better appreciation of the roller-coaster of feast and famine, and of unbelievably greedy politics that is both sides of the UAW-management equation should read (both): "Crash Course" (Pulitzer prize, btw) and "Wheels for the World". Wheels pains the Ford history with neat insights on how FoMoCo snatches (near) defeat from the hands of victory and then, just before it vanishes, comes roaring back (30s, 50s, 80s, 2000s)

Grant

There had to be a time where domestic vs. import quality was close to parity without people realizing it. By the way, did you ever read Animal House*? What comes to mind is at the end (I think) when the farmer and animals are all playing cards together.

*Doh!

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 12:05PM by Laz. (view changes)

Yes, but some pigs are more equal than others you see.......About 3 years back i went on a kick to read some classics. Doing so you find out why they are classics. Frankenstein. (the monster is the doctor, not the creature) A Tale of Two Cities (Dickens, yet engrossing!). Read Das Kapital too. Communists apparently have not.

Wow. Boxsters to Orwell.

Grant

... or, The Modern Prometheus.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

My Japanese car buying experiences have been mostly bad. All were new car purchases.

Mazda 626 - good experience, still in the family after 16 years and running (though ill-maintained by car clueless son)

Honda Civic - before 30k replaced 4 brake cylinders and PS pump. Rusted out at 80k between rear doors and wheel wells. Every one I ever saw had the same rust problem.

Nissan Sentra - after 2 years bad rust at the lip of both the trunk and the hood.

Honda Acura - replaced 3 wheels because they were not true at ~40k. Replaced transmission at 72k miles.

Honda CRV - replaced O2 sensor and the list price was 2x the list price of the equivalent Porsche branded product. (Denso part was still more expensive than the Porsche equivalent Bosch part...you know I don't buy dealer inflated parts)

Mitsubishi engine in Dodge Caravan - common problem with valve guides collapsing at around 90k.

Toyota Avalon - the SE region distributor packs about $1200 in non-negotiable extras onto the price (not just something I noticed but confirmed by a dealer's general manager) and the dealerships just don't compete based on my sample of 6

although I'm sure I've at least put as much as the original retail price into it for maintenance and repair since 88. $13,500, maybe. At the time I had the dealer do it, I was the only one to have the sunroof mechanism rebuilt, for one thing. I also sensed a burring of sorts from the transmission and opted for having it rebuilt by the dealer rather than going for a much less expensive junker. The theory was that I knew what I'd be getting.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 08:18PM by Laz. (view changes)

I went through the whole premium car thing when I was younger (BMW, Infiniti, Saab, Audi, etc.) and they were bought: 1) because they were better and safer than "average" cars of the time, and 2) they showed people that I was doing well financially. Today, cars have become so good overall that I would never buy a luxury make. They're just not worth it. I also don't need to buy a luxury car to prove anything to anyone.

You can see luxury makers struggling to differentiate themselves with all sorts of costly, unnecessary and sometimes troublesome technology features because the average person can now get most of what they need in a Chevy Malibu or Hyundai Sonata or other similar models. In the space where we play (two-seat roadsters), however, I see nothing to buy in the "average" range beyond a Miata, a very nice car that's too small for me and doesn't appear to be very sturdy, crash-wise. If, for example, Mazda made a nice-looking, slightly larger two-seat roadster with a healthy rotary and a decent price, I'd jump on it in a minute. One of the most enjoyable cars I ever owned was a base RX-7 that set me back a whopping $11,000 in 1981.

Haha, that's funny. I wonder how many others of us there are. Silly Japanese, the Miata isn't for people over 6' tall. I love the Miata but I just ... can't ... fit. When I started sports car shopping, I started at Miata, couldn't fit. Tried an RX-8, couldn't fit under the sunroof. Tried a 370Z but just wasn't happy with that car at all. Couldn't fit under the sunroof of a G-37. And that's pretty much it for sports cars priced below the Boxster/Cayman. Initially didn't even consider a Porsche because I thought it would be way beyond my budget. Bought it because I loved the looks and the fact I could fit in it -- and because I got one heck of a deal on it that brought the price down near the others on my list. The performance is extraordinary, but only a secondary consideration. Any sports car can perform beyond my driving capabilities on normal roads and traffic. The old RX-7 was a great car at a great price; I also miss my 1980 280ZX -- not great as a "sports car" but man that thing had legs.

Near as I can tell, no one in the Porsche family is NBA material.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?

At 6'1", I fit in the Boxster just fine, although things get a little cramped if I'm wearing a heavy winter jacket. The Miata's just too narrow for me. I feel like I have to cut off my left arm to fit. With the demise of the S2000, there's nothing really good for me in the lower-priced (under $35K) roadster segment. At the end of the day, the best thing out there in the price range is a used Boxster, especially if you can deal with maintenance costs and mechanical issues. But I guess we all know that. PaulW, I always liked the 280ZX. I liked the 240Z as well. Just saw a couple nice ones at a car show.

and neither of us are linebackers.

Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?