Re: There are not many parts in these cars that are repairable. It is not the techs' fault...

There are two service guys here at Don Rosen Porsche so the other one may have a different story, but apparently, my 2000S at 178K miles is a bit of a record for them. (Actually about 130K on this engine.) I don't quite know how I feel about this....... Anyway, it is what it is and it gives me encouragement to hear others with high mileage cars are on this board. They also commented... more like shocked.... on how good my car looked for that mileage. Makes you wonder how other folks take care of their things.

YMMV

Not too surprising, I would imagine that most folks with high mileage, out of warranty cars have found a good independent alternative to the high priced (occasionally disreputable) dealers. At 102,000 miles, my car hasn't seen a dealer in over 50k miles and will not in the future, unless it's related to a recall. I do 90% of my own service and call in Alden at Fintworks if I get in over my head. Congrats on your longevity!

I too have been taking my car to a good indy.... they guy was the shop foreman at a Porsche dealer for ... who knows... 15 years? Now he has his own shop so for me, I didn't think anything of it to go to this indy. But, wouldn't a dealer have more knowledge or access to more information about an older car? No?

... that most owners, after their car is out of warranty, find an independent shop that they are comfortable with and will save them money.
Also, Porsche (and most of all of the other manufacturers) train their techs to be parts replacers, not diagnosticians and repairers (on the newer models that's more efficient).
Most of the more experienced "older" techs eventually go off on their own and become themselves independent.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

"Also, Porsche (and most of all of the other manufacturers) train their techs to be parts replacers, not diagnosticians and repairers (on the newer models that's more efficient)."

It is the other way around. The senior tech at the local dealership just returned from a week long diagnostics training session held down in southern CA to get a refresher/updated course in Porsche OBD2 diagnostics.

I doubt any indy shops send they techs anywhere for any training.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

... but not everywhere else that I've had experience in.
Porsche, as other manufacturers trains their techs, but repairing damaged parts is not top on their lists, not even in California.
I wasn't saying that they don't know (or get trained on) OBD-II diagnostics, I'm saying that they don't get trained on diagnostics at the parts level.
They get trained to understand the PIWIS computer and then REPLACE, not REPAIR the affected part or system.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2011 10:16PM by Pedro (Weston, FL). (view changes)

but simply the way things are now.

My experience has been the diagnostics -- OBD2, comfort bus, or purely mechanical/automotive -- is just fine.

For the comfort bus, in the case of my Boxster and its door lock, the tech in less than an hour's time pinpointed the source of the problem and in another hour had the old door lock out and the new one in. A fraction of an hour was required to restore the car's comfort settgings. The lock is not rebuildable so the tech had to replace it. MAF. Not rebuildable (AFIAK). O2 sensors. Not rebuildable. But in all cases I've id'd the source of the problem and replaced the bad unit myself.

Wheel bearing. Not rebuildable.

AOS. Not rebuildable.

Now I did have the CV boots recently replaced and the CV bearings cleaned and greased. Believe it or not but the tech actually advised me to have these cleaned and regreased rather than replacing the half shafts with new ones. I have in the past preferred to replace driveshaft bearings with new ones but the $900+ cost (each) of new half shafts convinced me to listen to the tech and have him clean/regrease the old half shafts. He told me as long as the shafts are not allowed to run with failed CV boots his experience is the CV bearings are quite robust and a simple clean and regrease will have them as good as new again.

In the case of my Cayman S the tech id'd a bad radio and the radio was replaced. Again the radio simply isn't a field servicable item.

Back to the Boxster: no need to pay the tech to diagnose the converter; I have done that. But the converter is not rebuildable so I'm faced with having to replace it when the time comes.

Further back I id'd the water pump and simply had the car towed to a dealer and the water pump replaced.

As for the Boxster and its recent troubles with the VarioCam solenoid and actuator the problem was id'd in short order. In fact I had a pretty good idea what was wrong simply from the error code I read shortly after the check engine light came on but facing a partial teardown of the engine at that cost level I wanted some professional input as to what was wrong. The tech confirmed the solenoid was bad but the solenoid and actuator are not rebuildable so replacement was the only option. The actuator housing appears to have been welded shut. I can't find a bolt anywhere in its housing.

When the fuel pump quit the tech loaned me his fuel pump bypass relay and I verified the pump was not working. The car was towed to the dealer and the tech simply verified the pump had voltage and since it did the diagnosis was the fuel pump was bad which is just good automotive diagnostics. As with most other items the fuel pump is not rebuildable. In fact I disassembled it as far as I could and found the pump housing proper is sealed and can't be separated without resorting to chucking the thing in a lathe and turning away part of the housing to disassemble its innards. But I don't see how one could reasonably rebuild this pump.

With the Turbo, the radiator fan motor (shaft snapped), the idler roller bearing, the shifter linkage, the clutch accumulator and slave cylinder all had to be replaced. None of these items are rebuildable. Either the assemblies/hardware is not field servicable or Porsche doesn't offer spare parts for instance for the shifter linkage. In the case of the shifter problem just a plastic ball socket broke and had this been available separately I believe there is no reason why the old one could not have been removed and the new one fitted and the shifter resurrected. But the car was under warranty and a straight up replacement of the shifter is Porsche's answer. I have not had the time or the need to research if the ball socket is available over the counter or off the shelf. I've driven for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles and never had a shifter problem ever so a once in a lifetime replacement of a shifter is not a big deal to me. Now if this thing was going out more often, and me faced with paying to have it replaced, I'd be researching a shifter rebuild solution.

Now, the transmission. Because the car was covered by a CPO warranty Porsche's policy is (at least in this case) remove the old transmission and install a new one, one which came from Germany I was told. (The USA warehouses were out of stock of Turbo transmissions.) The factory sent over a remanufactured transmission rather than allow the techs to replace the leaking seal in the original transmission. However, the techs told me that if the car had not been covered by a CPO warranty and had I wanted the leak fixed they could have removed the transmission and torn it down and replaced the leaking the seal. The Turbo 6-speed and the NA 6-speed transmissions share parts and the selector shaft seals are such parts.

As for engines and engine rebuilds most owners facing this either do not have a good candidate engine for rebuilding -- due to the reason the engine's sick in the first place oftentimes the engine's toast by the time the car makes it to the dealer or any place else for a professional diagnosis -- or elect to bypass a rebuild in favor of replacing the engine selecting one of the engine replacement options.

Were I faced with having to do something about my Boxster's engine, at the rebuild level, I do not think I'd have it rebuilt anyplace but use it for its core charge value and have the engine replaced.

Oh, not my car but I have been in various Porsche dealer and their service departments and seen engines and transmissions down and being repaired. For instance, not too many weeks ago, I came upon a 997 Turbo in a service bay on a lift with its engine out and one of its camshaft covers removed so the tech could replace a bad VarioCam actuator. However, as was the case with my Boxster, this VarioCam actuator while it did have bolts and the tech told me he has disassembled one before to see what he could see Porsche does not offer any parts to rebuild/repair the things.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

My standard example is the battery:

Car cranks slowly. Owner brings car in to shop. After running some tests, the shop concludes that the battery needs to be replaced. This seems to make sense as the battery is a whopping 4 years old. The shop puts in a new battery, charges $200, and the problem is gone and the customer is happy.

It turns out that the problem was a bad connection to the battery. The process of putting in the new battery includes cleaning the contacts on the battery cable so the diagnosis and the repair cost are incorrect and unnecessary. But the customer is none the wiser.

There are many other examples of this phenomenon.

Many "not rebuildable" items are in fact rebuildable. If the shop doesn't have the tools/expertise to do the rebuild so they can get a rebuild from another shop. The clutch slave cylinder is a perfect example. The part that wears is a small easily replaceable component. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater there.

... (Central Locking Unit) and other electrical "black" boxes.
Once they show the slightest failure through the PIWIS system it's: You need to replace the part and the reprogram everything. $$$$$$$
I have been able to revive every single water-damaged CLU that I've encountered (at least 6) thereby saving the customer thou$and$.
There may be several reasons why this happens:
a) The techs don't know how to repair these parts
b) The dealership is not interested in repairing, but in selling new part$
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

or even the factory.

Also, I've spoken to the techs about various repair vs. replace issues, and partial repairs, for instance the ignition switch in my Boxster.

The techs tell me that too often after replacing just the electrical portion of the switch the car would come back and require the whole switch be replaced. Usually a customer satisfaction survey sent to a customer who experiences this receives low marks and well, comebacks are bad for business.

Furthermore, you must remember PCNA has the input from all dealers regarding the success or failure rate of a repair. So, the bulletin goes out that replacing the electrical only portion of the switch is no longer supported and in fact as I found out when I tried to buy one the electrical portion is no longer a stocked item and no longer available separately.

As for electronics exposed to water... one has to look at the entire set of instances. While you've had good success with your repairs over a few vehicles, a larger population of vehicles in this same situation and with varying degrees of immersion time and I could imagine for instance in areas with nasty winter weather with much more salt in the carpet and thus picked up by water your success rate would go down.

Or maybe not.

Regardless, there's a risk to reusing an electronic component in a car and that is fire. All it takes is one vehicle fire to really put the scare in people. So the dealer, PCNA and the factory play the odds and prefer to install a new part vs. attempt to let the techs resurrect the old part.

Even so were I unfortunate enough that my car suffered from water intrusion (and from the amount of trash I spotted in the drains area the other day it is close... I can't understand where all the trash comes from) I'd try the same technique as you.

But not everyone is able or willing to put out that kind of effort.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Just like with any independent, the right thing to do is to tell the customer what their options are, regardless of whether or not they can perform the repair or if the repair is less likely to be successful. No sane customer would knowingly take the $30 ignition switch repair with appropriate caveat over a $250 repair and then be upset if it didn't work.

It should be the customer's informed choice what option to take, not the dealer's. This is an important point.

There is no risk of fire. Only low currents will ever be going through these electronics, limited at most by the capacity of the fuse.

service I get from the local Porsche dealer than I received from the indy I've used a couple of times

My experience (granted limited) is they like working on the air-cooled cars but only work on the water-cooled models when air-cooled work is slow. I would get a definite hint of distain when I brought my Boxster in to an indy. And when I questioned him about the services and options regarding same it pretty much it was take it or leave it. So I don't get that all kumbya warm fuzzy customer service vibe at an indy shop.

Furthermore, I found out quite by accident that at least one indy in my area uses salvaged parts in its repairs and I bet this isn't divulged to the customer.

OTOH, the techs at the dealerships will talk over my options with me and take the time to provide more info to help me make an informed decision. They also work with me to help keep the repair costs down. Sure, there's a limit to what the dealer and its service department can do, of course. Sometimes when the subject comes up and the service department is apologetic about the cost of something and not being able to do more to lower the cost, I point out the car costs what it costs and if I can no longer afford to keep the car or no longer want to go to the expense of keeping the car in good shape then that is not the dealer's fault.

Anyhow, sure, the prices at the dealer are higher at the dealer than at the indy but not exceptionally so. The days of saving substantial or significant money at an indy, at least where I am, is past I'm afraid.

Sincerely,

MarcW.

Not my experience at all. I found the indie I use on the recommendation of folks I knew through the local PCA region. He also does one of the tech sessions for the region each year. I've found him very friendly, always talks about options and gives his opinions and I've found his advice sound. As I've done upgrades for the track, he has been spot on and has never pushed the pricey options. Repairs have been excellent and almost half what the dealer charges. Does my track inspection for free. The last time I had it in just before BRBS for a check-up, he fixed a loose heat shield and the bill was zero. Always gives me a PCA discount.

He's a PCA club racer and has both water and air cooled race cars. I've never gotten a vibe from him that my car is anything other than a Porsche. I met a guy that lives in my area with a Carrera GT and I told him I was impressed that he always flashed his lights at me in my Boxster on the road. His answer was, there are no lowly Porsches. This guy treats me the same. All the DE people in the area have him work on their cars.

I'd suggest checking the local PCA websites for their tech sessions or their authorized DE inspection shops. Try them out for some routine maintenance. It might keep you from shooting at least your AMEX bill.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2011 06:57PM by Dave In MD. (view changes)

I think you can get good ones and bad ones like with anything else. If you check around with the local PCA, they should be able to point you to a good one.

One I started using last year when my car was out of warranty, charges less than half of what the dealer charged for an oil change and he's thorough, checks all the codes, brakes and tires while he's waiting for the oil to drain.

Guenter
2014 Boxster S
GT Silver, 6 Speed Manual, Bi-Xenons, Sports Suspension (lowers car 20mm), Porsche Sports Exhaust, Porsche Torque Vectoring, Auto Climate control, heated and vented seats, 20" Carrera S Wheels, Pedro's TechNoWind, Sport Design steering wheel, Roll bars in GT Silver
[www.cyberdesignconcepts.com]

except I was in the stall with 'em and my experience with finding indies in a big metro area was excellent twice. But get way off in the boonies and you can't find one...heck the nearest dealer has 1 Porsche mechanic. So it can be a scramble. As others have said, ask around and see what others are using. Good work gets rewarded with good words.

Interesting thread. I've wondered about Indy vs Dealer. My thought is that since a dealer deals in volume, then their techs have basically seen it all. Yeah, when my car is out of warranty, I may find a indie, most are not convient to me and mass transit, to do the general work, like oil/filter changes, annual check ups, etc, but if something is going wrong and isn't obvious, a dealer, while more money, could save time (aka money) by having seen and worked on the same issue many, many times. This way, I'm not paying someone to learn how to deal with a particular problem. The dealer knows all the various tricks of the trade, what works, what doesn't, etc, that can save in the long haul.

Also, I know my dealer gives PCA discounts, not sure if all Indies do.

I agree, there is the convenience factor with loaners, etc. Going from a dealer to an Indy only works if the Indy is truly qualified. I am fortunate to have a factory trained Indy who is honest as the day is long and the price for replacing my coolant tank and swapping the gear oil WELL exceeded any PCA discount.