Re: Yeah: reprocessing what's already been processed.

I just posted this on a popular 997 forum to address my Bose system in my 2009 C2S but I suspect they use the same system in all cars........

I stopped in a really good car audio place here in Bryn Mawr PA, just outside of Philly, to discuss what can be done to improve these Bose systems.

In short, they said "not much" as they are all digitally integrated with the other car systems and the Bose system has an all-in-one unit where all processing and amplification is done. Yuck. The system is specially equalized for the car's particular environment. While this appears to be a great approach, to me and other audiophiles, it just spells sonic disaster. I was hoping they could "cut the wires" to the amp section and could then use after market amps etc.

They recommended this JL Clean Sweep approach.... it takes the cables as they leave the amp and head to the speakers and re-equalizes it to be flat - it uses a special CD that plays reference tones and the box then neutralizes what comes out of the amp to be flat. Then you take these signals to your own amps and speakers.

[www.jlaudio.com]

This is supposed to improve the sound but to me, it doesn't make much sense as all of the original electronics are left in the signal path.

Any insights? Opinions? Experience with this system?

Oh, the other option is to replace everything.

Thanx
Bruce in Philly

Never bought into the original Bose concept of multiple drivers firing every which way. Now they apply that idea to electronics. Kind of why I still like this:

the roads around hear would make that system pretty aweful sounding.

.....also, I don't think my wife would keep it in her lap for our Fun Runs.

I was looking for a still from a Vittorio Gassman movie where he's got a convertible Lancia or Alfa or something that had an in-dash record player, but came up with this:




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2013 08:15PM by Laz.
(view changes)

Chrysler had that as an option in '56'; from what I've read it didn't work very well--but it didn't stop them from offering it as an option.

Exactly my feelings. Despite the fact that I'm arguably an 'audiophile' (i.e. spend way too much money on esoteric audio gear), I've never cared a bit to listen to the radio in the 986, instead preferring the symphony of a desnorked/PSE Porsche masterpiece singing at 7k rpm. Maestro!

Beautiful Sota/SME setup! I don't recognize the cartridge though. What is it?

Peace
Bruce

It's an Audioquest 7000 nsx. Overdue for a change, not so much for stylus wear, but ageing suspension (a Harry Pearson concern,) and never being fond of its low output in general. Had a high output van den Hul before this.
Your comment about high definition was very wise: "High definition is not about big bass, or achieving ear-bleeding sound levels. It is about communicating the emotional aspect of music and nothing communicates it better than a high-definition system..."
As my dad used to say, "Empty barrels make the most noise."
Speaking of HD, I wonder if there were any copyright or trademark issues with "High Definition" as a general industry term, when as far as I know it started here:




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 10:23AM by Laz.
(view changes)

I looked at this a few years ago and decided, after much research, to replace everything. The clean sweep system looked like a band aid to me.

But the BOSE system in my Audi is very tolerable. Pleasant, even, with obvious distortions that are akin to tube warmness (muddy, pronounced lower mids and upper bass). In a car is that so bad?

Now, the Porsche system may be much worse. The cockpit is more challenging, and the road noise much higher.

I would suggest two things:

1. if you can find out where the equalizer is (BOSE is, in essence, equalized to compensate for the car's non-linear environment, a great idea in theory) - you can possibly replace the amp and speaker components, leaving the EQ in place. However, i hear that the speakers are very low impedance, non-linear themselves, and part of the filter (EQ is a filter).

Another approach is the good old hifi hot-rodding trick: remove the amps and upgrade the parts - e.g.: bypass all the crappy electrolytic caps with some form of film in the 0.3-1.0 uF range - small enough to be noise in the filter, large enough to eliminate the dielectric absorption problem that smears the mids and highs. Someone needs to figure out what is in the signal path of course.

A 3rd option is to find out if the head-unit is involved in the Bose algorithm. In many systems i am told it is NOT. The output is flat (some have a code to make the BOSE or non-BOSE, some dont). In that case, leave the head unit, replace the amps and speakers. Your last foray worked really well. I should know.

What exactly is your short list of gripes? The best start to an answer is a clear question!

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

i recently replaced my oem system with a kenwood av double din head unit, jl 5 channel amp, upgraded the 3" (alpines)in the top dash, 6" or 6.5" (kickers) in door, custom sub (kickers)on the deck behind me. for me it was worth it to pull all the old oem crap and put in the system i wanted. But i do that with every car i have ever had. i would rather hear road noise than listen to fm or am...pull that bose gear and sell it on here. someone somewhere will buy it. Hope that helps a little

chrismmm: 2007-987 . jet black . north georgia
PCA PST member



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2013 04:52PM by chrismmm. (view changes)

i thinkl that is Bruce's issue.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Devils advocate for a moment.

Forget about "Bose" for a minute.

If a system has been tuned for a particular environment by (hopefully) audio engineer, why would a system that touts the ability to produce a flat frequency response an any audio environment be better? When the system is tuned for a flat response, is it tuned with the engine off, at idle, at speed?

Again, I'm not touting Bose. I have never purchased any of their products.

Biased disclaimer...old guy with lots of audio equipment when I built my own stuff and bought tonearms, moving coil cartridges, RIAA preamps and turntable separately. I still love the stuff but don't worry anymore if my car system is not all that. I don't go there to listen anyway.

dghii
2000 Boxster S 6speed 112k miles

Good points....

Regarding the Sweep system in general: Yes, a BandAid. I trust my local installer and he said it is an improvement but I dunno, you gotta remove at least the Bose amp from the chain as far as I am concerned.

Regarding flattening out what Bose did to frequency response: Good point, but I did not point out that you just don't do Clean Sweep, but change out all speakers. Once you change out the cheaper speakers for higher-definition units, the original sound sculpting becomes improper as the original equalization was "fixing" not just the environment, but the weaknesses of the total system. Re-equalization is now required and that is usually done with the channel gain controls of the new amps or with the addition of another equalizer.

I asked my installer about just upgrading the speakers and he pointed out that the existing equalization will wreck the sound re: prior paragraph above.

Regarding soundproofing: Yes this would help absolutely, but mostly in the listening fatigue aspect as I have to turn up the system to overcome the road noise. However, I found that if you install a higher-definition system, home or car, I tend not to need to turn up the system as much since your ear-brain system can better interpret the sound, even with road noise. Lowering road noise is good, but it will not make the Bose system sound better, it will remove competition - a very important but very different issue.

Regarding the Bose system in general, I really feel it is not a very good, high definition system. For many, it is a wonderful high-end stereo system. For me, I think it is pretty not good. To each his own. For me, I am passionate about music and choose to surround myself with it daily and in large doses. High definition is not about big bass, or achieving ear-bleeding sound levels. It is about communicating the emotional aspect of music and nothing communicates it better than a high-definition system, particularly in the mid range and not the highs and lows.

Regarding upgrading just the amps, it appears you can't do this as the Bose system has everything integrated into one box and I would love to keep the OEM PCM front-end system if possible.

A poster on another board posted this, check it out.... I am still researching it. Stereo System Replacement

By the way, I am selling a pair of Magnepan MG 20 home speakers. I hope I am not pushing the posting rules too far here with this link: My Maggies For Sale My point by posting this link here, besides I do want to sell these, is to show off my passion for high quality audio sound. These are pictures of my down stairs living room. You will see the Maggies, a pair of tube VTL Deluxe 300s, a dreamy Accuphase CD player/processor and some other support equipment. I ripped my CD collection bit-for-bit to a file server in my home, then wired the place up with Ethernet cable, and feed the Accuphase from a PC that passes bit-for-bit (Foobar player) to an AudioAlchemy jitter reducer, then to the Accuphase's digital ins. Just wow. Sit back and be taken away. By the way, if you think this system "blasts", it doesn't at all. I can get good sound volumes but not really as that is not the point of all this.

Peace
Bruce in Philly (a bit crazy)

You would be far better off spending your money on soundproofing your interior and changing your tires to a less noisy brand. Reduced road noise = vastly improved stereo. I spent close to $3K on changing my head unit, adding rear speakers, adding an amp, and adding a custom subwoofer ... but it wasn't until I had the interior stripped and soundproofed and replaced the tires (Potenza RE70 A/S) that the stereo actually became very enjoyable. This finally got rid of the low roar that drowned out the nice stereo and was my constant unwanted companion for my first 16K miles. For those who like a loud car, before you flame me, ask yourself this: Do I want to hear my engine or road noise? The soundproofing I installed drastically cut my road noise while barely affecting my engine sounds. I wish I had tested it before and after, but I didn't. However, the sound of the stereo AND the sound of the engine are definitely both improved, while it is far easier to make long trips and carry on a conversation with a passenger. The whole interior was professionally stripped out and soundproofing added throughout. Cost about $1300.

"how do i upgrade if my system is tied to the CAN BUS"?

"cna i fix what i have"?

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

I think i want to put it in the red car. More and more i realize that i really should make the blue car the track/performance car. for that duty the stereo is both un-necessary, and added weight/etc.

So i may want to transfer it from one to the other.

Grant

Grant

gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com

Feel free to call me anytime, but I am not sure how I can help. The system was installed by Goodman Radio in Bryn Mawr... not sure what they would charge to transfer it.

The head unit just pulls out.... friction holds it in. There you will see the hookups. I am 99% sure they ran some new cables between the head unit and the amps in the trunk... I guess you could just pull them out and redo what they did without thinking too hard about it. They may have spliced into some of the Becker/Porsche connectors to get at the speaker cables and or power.... not sure about that one. They kept the original speaker wires in the car because they said that Becker/Porsche did a good job of avoiding noise and it was best to leave them in (I was willing to pay for new cables).

The rear speaker kit should just install in your red car, but the speaker wiring may be missing. If you notice, the door panels in the blue car are bigger as I ordered the car with the upgraded stereo and it came with different door panels and speakers. This door panel most likely will fit into your car although the color may be wrong - both these door panels and the rear speaker kit were all modified with Dremel tool to fit the newer speakers. The door panel speakers were then puttied with some black gunk to seal them up. ALL speakers were replaced with aftermarket speakers. The dash speakers, I think, were replaced without mods to the mounts but the others were modded to fit.

The XM radio, as you probably already know, is under the passenger foot well carpet hence the bump. The control unit in the dash cubby all just plugs into the AUX in jacks in the back of the Nakamichi unit..... you can leave all of this out of your red car of course.

You are facing a real challenge here. If you didn't have the upgraded stereo in your red car, the door speakers probably will not fit into your panels and it would be tough to remove them from the old panels as there is all that black putty stuff sealing them in.

You can call Gary Goodman at Goodman radio... I was just in there yesterday to talk to him and he knows me well.... just tell him you own my Boxster, and ask him for an estimate to move it. He is leaving for Florida tomorrow, Saturday.... so call him today if this may be an option for you.

Of course, another option may be to just swap out key parts such as the Nakamichi head unit and one of the amps for the Becker crap. That is probably your easiest move. Now that should be easy. Then you may consider the dash speakers as I think - I think - were just drop ins.

Good luck!!!!! Feel free to call me but I think I have it all above....

Peace
Bruce in Philly