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| Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Dwass - Monday, 16 May, 2011, at 10:32:11 pm |
Hey everyone,
First time posting in Pedro's Board... long time reader/poster on the old diggs. (Congrats on the forum Pedro!!!)
I have a 2000 986 (2.7) with just north of 52k on the ODO.
Got a few things going on and I've spent the last 4 hours looking through searches... hoping for some more info.
Current Stats:
-Original clutch, AOS, RMS, IMS... etc... as far as I can tell, all original.
-When I got the car, it had just under 24,000 miles on it. I was told "you should replace the clutch now" by the dealer back in 2005. Needless to say, I haven't.
-The clutch has been heavy, but pretty sticky (good) since last summer.
-Last summer (2010) I changed my driving style from "spirited" to "gas saver". I was using 5th as soon as I could... and, I know, unfortunately, putting a lot of load on the clutch. I crossed 22mpg on the car that summer for the first time. Since summer 2010, I have been averaging 16+mpg with city driving. I used to get between 11-13mpg with my old driving style.
-I noticed the clutch was on it's way out towards the end of last summer (2010). It started slipping in 5th, I was still pretty hard on it then. A couple months after that slipping in 4th. More months, 3rd and now starting to slip in 2nd. I think it's time to replace. I haven't done the "stall test" (put the car in 5th and see if it stalls) to see how bad it is, I don't see a point.
-I just recently replaced all of the coils and all of the plugs. I had a nasty misfire situation that scared the heck out of me and decided to just replace them. Got the parts online (Porsche OEM) and hand an indy do the work. Sure enough, the plugs were pretty worn and some of the coils had cracks developing in them.
-"Brake Wear" light has been on since spring of 2010.... I decided to wait to do them . No squeaking, scratching, or lack of brake performance noticed since the light has been on.
-I think I had the oil changed last year or a year and a half ago, at the dealer. I paid $150. Since then, I think I put at least 6 or 7 thousand miles on the car... so it's a good time to get the oil changed (agree?).
QUESTIONS:
- What do you think I could "DIY", realistically. Obviously, the clutch is just too much work... need to lift the car and drop the engine.... I don't have the tools. But brakes and oil don't sound so terrible to do on my own. I've seen the oil chance write-ups and they don't look very difficult.
-How much do you guys usually save doing oil on your own? I have seen some on here saying that they alternate between dealer and DIY, seems like a nice idea. I'm in Chicago and drive year round... Mobil 1? 5w30? 10w30? or? Jack stands or ramps (I have ramps from installing a GHL exhaust last spring myslef). Forums seem to like Walmart for oils, is this still true with you guys?
-Would I save enough to justify doing the brakes myself? I don't know if it's the front or the rear... I just swapped my winter wheels for my summers and all the rotors seems the same... didn't spend time looking at the pad thickness. Replace pads AND rotors? Go with Porsche or aftermarket? Risks doing it myself?
-How much do you think the Porsche dealer will want to do a clutch job? I've been seeing $1,500 all the way up to $2,500. I'm hoping to be at or around $1,500.
-Is there an alternative kit to Porsche OEM that is better for the clutch? I'm looking for some opinions. Also, since I've waited this long, I really hope my flywheel is ok... I think it's about $900 if that needs to be replaced (according to the forums).
-I was told my motor mounts were worn... would it make sense to have those replaced when the clutch is done? Also, replace the RMS, AOS, IMS... etc? I realize this adds to the cost, but with the engine out... it seems more economical should one of those go bad.
Man... I really wish I could do it all myself... I just don't have the tools to drop and engine
ALSO
I have been hearing a "cricket" chirping from the rear of the car for a while now... usually once it's warmed up. The sound seems synced with the rpms and becomes unnoticeable when driving... it's annoying when idling with the top down though. I noticed the other day that when I press the clutch in the sound seems to go away. I'm thinking it may be linked to the old clutch. What are your thoughts?
I'd like to say thank you now for reading this post. I realize I have asked for help with quite a few things. Feel free to pick and choose what to answer... I don't expect one person to have the answer to all of these things.
I have been doing searches on these topics for a while... hopefully, with your help, I can finally get somewhere.
Thanks for the help and advice and, most of all, reading this thread!
First time posting in Pedro's Board... long time reader/poster on the old diggs. (Congrats on the forum Pedro!!!)
I have a 2000 986 (2.7) with just north of 52k on the ODO.
Got a few things going on and I've spent the last 4 hours looking through searches... hoping for some more info.
Current Stats:
-Original clutch, AOS, RMS, IMS... etc... as far as I can tell, all original.
-When I got the car, it had just under 24,000 miles on it. I was told "you should replace the clutch now" by the dealer back in 2005. Needless to say, I haven't.
-The clutch has been heavy, but pretty sticky (good) since last summer.
-Last summer (2010) I changed my driving style from "spirited" to "gas saver". I was using 5th as soon as I could... and, I know, unfortunately, putting a lot of load on the clutch. I crossed 22mpg on the car that summer for the first time. Since summer 2010, I have been averaging 16+mpg with city driving. I used to get between 11-13mpg with my old driving style.
-I noticed the clutch was on it's way out towards the end of last summer (2010). It started slipping in 5th, I was still pretty hard on it then. A couple months after that slipping in 4th. More months, 3rd and now starting to slip in 2nd. I think it's time to replace. I haven't done the "stall test" (put the car in 5th and see if it stalls) to see how bad it is, I don't see a point.
-I just recently replaced all of the coils and all of the plugs. I had a nasty misfire situation that scared the heck out of me and decided to just replace them. Got the parts online (Porsche OEM) and hand an indy do the work. Sure enough, the plugs were pretty worn and some of the coils had cracks developing in them.
-"Brake Wear" light has been on since spring of 2010.... I decided to wait to do them . No squeaking, scratching, or lack of brake performance noticed since the light has been on.
-I think I had the oil changed last year or a year and a half ago, at the dealer. I paid $150. Since then, I think I put at least 6 or 7 thousand miles on the car... so it's a good time to get the oil changed (agree?).
QUESTIONS:
- What do you think I could "DIY", realistically. Obviously, the clutch is just too much work... need to lift the car and drop the engine.... I don't have the tools. But brakes and oil don't sound so terrible to do on my own. I've seen the oil chance write-ups and they don't look very difficult.
-How much do you guys usually save doing oil on your own? I have seen some on here saying that they alternate between dealer and DIY, seems like a nice idea. I'm in Chicago and drive year round... Mobil 1? 5w30? 10w30? or? Jack stands or ramps (I have ramps from installing a GHL exhaust last spring myslef). Forums seem to like Walmart for oils, is this still true with you guys?
-Would I save enough to justify doing the brakes myself? I don't know if it's the front or the rear... I just swapped my winter wheels for my summers and all the rotors seems the same... didn't spend time looking at the pad thickness. Replace pads AND rotors? Go with Porsche or aftermarket? Risks doing it myself?
-How much do you think the Porsche dealer will want to do a clutch job? I've been seeing $1,500 all the way up to $2,500. I'm hoping to be at or around $1,500.
-Is there an alternative kit to Porsche OEM that is better for the clutch? I'm looking for some opinions. Also, since I've waited this long, I really hope my flywheel is ok... I think it's about $900 if that needs to be replaced (according to the forums).
-I was told my motor mounts were worn... would it make sense to have those replaced when the clutch is done? Also, replace the RMS, AOS, IMS... etc? I realize this adds to the cost, but with the engine out... it seems more economical should one of those go bad.
Man... I really wish I could do it all myself... I just don't have the tools to drop and engine
ALSO
I have been hearing a "cricket" chirping from the rear of the car for a while now... usually once it's warmed up. The sound seems synced with the rpms and becomes unnoticeable when driving... it's annoying when idling with the top down though. I noticed the other day that when I press the clutch in the sound seems to go away. I'm thinking it may be linked to the old clutch. What are your thoughts?
I'd like to say thank you now for reading this post. I realize I have asked for help with quite a few things. Feel free to pick and choose what to answer... I don't expect one person to have the answer to all of these things.
I have been doing searches on these topics for a while... hopefully, with your help, I can finally get somewhere.
Thanks for the help and advice and, most of all, reading this thread!
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Petee_C - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 9:34:34 am |
oil/filter change and brakes are a good place to start for DIY.... You will need an 8mm hex wrench for the oil drain plug.... and a 76mm(?) 14 (?) sided filter wrench to loosen the filter. Jackstands or ramps.
- I've done lots of brakes on other vehicles, but my '01 Boxster S doesn't need them yet. I have heard they are easier than other vehicles.
P
- I've done lots of brakes on other vehicles, but my '01 Boxster S doesn't need them yet. I have heard they are easier than other vehicles.
P
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 9:38:33 am |
Welcome to the board.
If you let the clutch wear to where it's slipping in 2nd gear, figure on a new flywheel as well.
If you've had your brake light on since the spring of 2010, one of these days you're going to have a BIG scare.
As soon as the pad material is gone, you'll have metal-against-metal. This will destroy what's left of your rotors but will also create a dangerous situation:
If you need to panic-brake and one side on the fronts still have a bit of pad left while the other side doesn't the car will not brake strongly, but will pull drastically to the side where the pads still grab.
Why gamble with your brakes?
Change your oil every 5,000 max. Not because the oil is worn or bad, but to inspect your oil filter and see if there is any metal in it, telling you of a potential internal engine pronblem.
I don't know your mechanical abilities, but the Boxster is a very easy car to DIY.
You need to lift it to work from underneath, but you don't have to drop the engine for any of the jobs you've discussed (just the tranny).
If you figure $50.00 for oil (purchasing two 5 qt. jugs of M1 at Wal-Mart) plus $25.00 for the oil filter you can save $75.00 from what you paid last time.
In Chicago I'd put 0W40 or 5W40. Ramps or jack stands work well for an oil change.
Your front brakes will wear twice as much as the rears. Brakes are very easy DIY and you'll save a bunch.
If the rotors have a marked lip on the outer edge (1 mm or more) they need to be replaced. If not, just the pads.
A clutch job at the dealer ($2,500 +) is going to be much more than with an independent shop ($1500 +).
Sachs is the OEM manufacturer of the clutch and you can buy the kit for $700 or so.
You'll most likely need a new flywheel ($1000) as well.
The Front Engine Mount is the one that gets replaced. Cost is $150.00 and it's also a DIY job.
Once the tranny is down (not the engine) you should also replace the RMS and (for peace of mind) the IMS bearing as well.
You can find DIY instructions for many of the projects discussed above here: [www.pedrosgarage.com]
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
If you let the clutch wear to where it's slipping in 2nd gear, figure on a new flywheel as well.
If you've had your brake light on since the spring of 2010, one of these days you're going to have a BIG scare.
As soon as the pad material is gone, you'll have metal-against-metal. This will destroy what's left of your rotors but will also create a dangerous situation:
If you need to panic-brake and one side on the fronts still have a bit of pad left while the other side doesn't the car will not brake strongly, but will pull drastically to the side where the pads still grab.
Why gamble with your brakes?
Change your oil every 5,000 max. Not because the oil is worn or bad, but to inspect your oil filter and see if there is any metal in it, telling you of a potential internal engine pronblem.
I don't know your mechanical abilities, but the Boxster is a very easy car to DIY.
You need to lift it to work from underneath, but you don't have to drop the engine for any of the jobs you've discussed (just the tranny).
If you figure $50.00 for oil (purchasing two 5 qt. jugs of M1 at Wal-Mart) plus $25.00 for the oil filter you can save $75.00 from what you paid last time.
In Chicago I'd put 0W40 or 5W40. Ramps or jack stands work well for an oil change.
Your front brakes will wear twice as much as the rears. Brakes are very easy DIY and you'll save a bunch.
If the rotors have a marked lip on the outer edge (1 mm or more) they need to be replaced. If not, just the pads.
A clutch job at the dealer ($2,500 +) is going to be much more than with an independent shop ($1500 +).
Sachs is the OEM manufacturer of the clutch and you can buy the kit for $700 or so.
You'll most likely need a new flywheel ($1000) as well.
The Front Engine Mount is the one that gets replaced. Cost is $150.00 and it's also a DIY job.
Once the tranny is down (not the engine) you should also replace the RMS and (for peace of mind) the IMS bearing as well.
You can find DIY instructions for many of the projects discussed above here: [www.pedrosgarage.com]
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Kermit In Cleveland - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 12:29:25 pm |
Hey Pedro,
In your DIY instructions for the engine mount, you say you can use ramps instead of a lift or 4 stands. Do you have any recommendations for a good set of ramps? My 3000 RPM vibration is getting worse so I'd like to attempt this DIY myself.
Thanks,
Kermit
2000 S 118,000 miles
In your DIY instructions for the engine mount, you say you can use ramps instead of a lift or 4 stands. Do you have any recommendations for a good set of ramps? My 3000 RPM vibration is getting worse so I'd like to attempt this DIY myself.
Thanks,
Kermit
2000 S 118,000 miles
| Rhino Ramps... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 6:19:47 pm |
... are the most well known, but any one of the plastic ramps sold at the Auto Parts are fine.
They're all made to handle 7,000 lbs.
Don't get any of the metal ramps, since they can slide as you're climbing them and they're prone to buckle if not completely straight under the car.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
They're all made to handle 7,000 lbs.
Don't get any of the metal ramps, since they can slide as you're climbing them and they're prone to buckle if not completely straight under the car.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Dwass - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 3:33:20 pm |
Thanks for the warm welcome and reply Pedro! (And others, if I don't get a chance to reply to all of you)
I appreciate everything you've had to say. I'm plenty worried about these things now and realize immediate attention is necessary. I agree about the DIY factor of the Boxster, all of the little things I have done so far didn't seem hard at all. The exhaust was a pain in the &^# because of the rusted and frozen bolts/hardware. I had to replace everything.
I still can't find a writeup (even on here) of anything regarding DIY clutch replacement. That, to me, is not a good sign. I didn't know that is was possible to drop the trans without first dropping the engine. I can only imagine how risky this would be based on what some of the others have stated on here. I really wish I could do it, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with some assistance, but I don't know anyone around here that knows about these things or has the necessary tools. I have a lot of tools from over the years of various DIY projects, but automotive specific tools are lacking (i.e. lifts for car, lifts for engine or trans, etc etc). I hate to throw in the towel, but I'm in over my head I think.
I REALLY hope I don't need to replace the flywheel. I'll feel terrible. I'm worried to even ask my indy because last time he saw that I had purchased 6 coils and 6 plugs, he right away said to just do them all. Just so I'm clear, they do not sell any clutch kits with a flywheel?
In regard to the oil change, I feel pretty comfortable with that. We have 2 pcars in the family (the other is a '99 996C4) and being able to do both oil changes will be a huge money saver. So for both cars (driven year round) 5w40 or 0w40, in your opinion, is best? We have SUPER hot summers and SUPER cold winters. It may be time for an oil change by the time winter is around the corner so I guess we could consider that. However, pretending I will only put 5000 miles on the car in a year, would those suggested oils be good? Also, what's the word on oil disposal?
Brakes.... whoa am I worried. I'm really not sure which are worn, I wish I could see what the car is seeing. I'm sure all 4 are worn. I had a pair replaced a few years ago... it might haver been the fronts, but I can't remember. Would I expect to see some worn brake sensors exposed on the bad ones? Is there a negative to pulling all of the calipers off? Heck if I have them all off, and determine which ones need new pads + rotors, should I just throw a set of new pads on the others that I took off (front set or rear, whichever)? I imagine I can reuse the brake wear sensors on the "still ok" brakes, correct? I'm going to start pricing out the parts. Is SC in Florida still a good source?
How do you gauge 1 mm on the lip edge? I have some 1mm fiber-optic filaments from a side project, could I just hold one to the edge and see if it matches? When I changed the weeks I did notice that the edges did protrude with a small ridge in the rim, it might be smaller than 1mm (I hope).
Thanks again for all the help!
I appreciate everything you've had to say. I'm plenty worried about these things now and realize immediate attention is necessary. I agree about the DIY factor of the Boxster, all of the little things I have done so far didn't seem hard at all. The exhaust was a pain in the &^# because of the rusted and frozen bolts/hardware. I had to replace everything.
I still can't find a writeup (even on here) of anything regarding DIY clutch replacement. That, to me, is not a good sign. I didn't know that is was possible to drop the trans without first dropping the engine. I can only imagine how risky this would be based on what some of the others have stated on here. I really wish I could do it, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with some assistance, but I don't know anyone around here that knows about these things or has the necessary tools. I have a lot of tools from over the years of various DIY projects, but automotive specific tools are lacking (i.e. lifts for car, lifts for engine or trans, etc etc). I hate to throw in the towel, but I'm in over my head I think.
I REALLY hope I don't need to replace the flywheel. I'll feel terrible. I'm worried to even ask my indy because last time he saw that I had purchased 6 coils and 6 plugs, he right away said to just do them all. Just so I'm clear, they do not sell any clutch kits with a flywheel?
In regard to the oil change, I feel pretty comfortable with that. We have 2 pcars in the family (the other is a '99 996C4) and being able to do both oil changes will be a huge money saver. So for both cars (driven year round) 5w40 or 0w40, in your opinion, is best? We have SUPER hot summers and SUPER cold winters. It may be time for an oil change by the time winter is around the corner so I guess we could consider that. However, pretending I will only put 5000 miles on the car in a year, would those suggested oils be good? Also, what's the word on oil disposal?
Brakes.... whoa am I worried. I'm really not sure which are worn, I wish I could see what the car is seeing. I'm sure all 4 are worn. I had a pair replaced a few years ago... it might haver been the fronts, but I can't remember. Would I expect to see some worn brake sensors exposed on the bad ones? Is there a negative to pulling all of the calipers off? Heck if I have them all off, and determine which ones need new pads + rotors, should I just throw a set of new pads on the others that I took off (front set or rear, whichever)? I imagine I can reuse the brake wear sensors on the "still ok" brakes, correct? I'm going to start pricing out the parts. Is SC in Florida still a good source?
How do you gauge 1 mm on the lip edge? I have some 1mm fiber-optic filaments from a side project, could I just hold one to the edge and see if it matches? When I changed the weeks I did notice that the edges did protrude with a small ridge in the rim, it might be smaller than 1mm (I hope).
Thanks again for all the help!
| Regarding 0w-40 vs. 5w-40 Porsche says.... MarcW - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 9:54:08 pm |
0W-40 oil is good for all temperature ranges while 5w-40 is good for temperature ranges warmer than -25C.
If temps in your area in the winter get below -25C you may want to run 0w-40 year round or maybe just in the winter months. Granted a bit of extra work to have to deal with a summer vs. winter oil. Both 0w-40 and 5w-40 will perform the same once up to temperature.
Oh, oil disposal: Here in CA auto parts stores and other businesses that sell motor oil are required to allow a customer to drop off oil motor oil. I collect the oil in a large drain pan/container that I can seal up and then carry to the auto parts store and empty the oil through a pour spout into the collection tank in the back of the store. Very handy. No need to transfer the oil from a drain pan into handy carrying container (I used to use a plastic 5 gallon gas 'can') and then carry the container to a oil collection tank at the parts store.
You should research what oil recyling rules are in effect for your area. Maybe something similar as here in CA? If not you may have to find a recyling center that will accept the oil. Be sure you know what containers are allowed -- more than once I received some resistance to dropping off oil when I showed up with the oil in a bright red plastic gas 'can' -- and if the center will allow you to drop off all 9 or more quarts.
Oh, if you are on friendly terms with your local gas station or indy repair shop or even your Porsche dealer you might ask nicely and be allowed to drop off old oil at one of these places.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
If temps in your area in the winter get below -25C you may want to run 0w-40 year round or maybe just in the winter months. Granted a bit of extra work to have to deal with a summer vs. winter oil. Both 0w-40 and 5w-40 will perform the same once up to temperature.
Oh, oil disposal: Here in CA auto parts stores and other businesses that sell motor oil are required to allow a customer to drop off oil motor oil. I collect the oil in a large drain pan/container that I can seal up and then carry to the auto parts store and empty the oil through a pour spout into the collection tank in the back of the store. Very handy. No need to transfer the oil from a drain pan into handy carrying container (I used to use a plastic 5 gallon gas 'can') and then carry the container to a oil collection tank at the parts store.
You should research what oil recyling rules are in effect for your area. Maybe something similar as here in CA? If not you may have to find a recyling center that will accept the oil. Be sure you know what containers are allowed -- more than once I received some resistance to dropping off oil when I showed up with the oil in a bright red plastic gas 'can' -- and if the center will allow you to drop off all 9 or more quarts.
Oh, if you are on friendly terms with your local gas station or indy repair shop or even your Porsche dealer you might ask nicely and be allowed to drop off old oil at one of these places.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
| if you live in an area routinely below -25, move. grant - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 8:46:06 am |
and not long ago the military recomended 10w - for the arctic. So i would grab a large measure of salt.
I've posted at length that no 0w40 stands up well at hgih temp, high speeds and heavy duty cycles, while many 5w40 and 10w40 do.
So the comparison is not between two similar oils. Its the old story - one thin for the cold, one thick for the hot. Consider 0w40 as 0w30 (after shear) , and with added lieklihood of sludge (which is driven in part by shear and break-down) and you're GTG.
Grant
I've posted at length that no 0w40 stands up well at hgih temp, high speeds and heavy duty cycles, while many 5w40 and 10w40 do.
So the comparison is not between two similar oils. Its the old story - one thin for the cold, one thick for the hot. Consider 0w40 as 0w30 (after shear) , and with added lieklihood of sludge (which is driven in part by shear and break-down) and you're GTG.
Grant
| Not sure what if any bearing the military recommending 10w oil for arctic use has on what ... MarcW - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 2:33:40 pm |
W grade of oil we should use in our Porsches, unless the military is running a fleet of Boxsters up at the north pole. Sorry.
Seriously, military vehicles can have quite different oil requirements, being different engines (mainly diesel) and perhaps being fitted with engine heaters or the personel having some kind of hot air blowers to pre-heat a dead cold engine before attempting to start it.
I know you (and others) have posted some about the 0W-40 oil's shortcomings. OTOH, there are other equally knowledgeable people that post equally convincing arguments the 0w-40 oil is quite good and go on to say that the negative comments against 0w-40 oil is based on mis-information at best.
I can't say you are right or wrong. But nor can I say the other people are right or wrong.
All I know is that besides being an approved oil (which of course many feel is sufficient grounds to suspect the oil is the worst oil ever) is that many many Porsche engines run with 0w-40 oil and do not show any ill-effects from it. There are far far fewer Porsche vehicles running with any other oil thus we have too small a sample size to make any reasonable judgement that any other oil is better over the same number of vehicles given the same type of vehicle usage, oil change service intervals, etc.
Also, I have gotten tired of the oil debate. To make my life a bit simpler I have elected to return to using an approved oil in the Boxster, though not a 0w-40 oil. Since in my locale low temps never approach -25C I have elected to use a 5w-xx oil and specifically Mobil 1 5w-50 oil since summer time temps can reach easily 90F and higher up to 100F and a bit beyond. Oh, even though I sometimes road trip in the winter I've never encountered temps anywhere near -25C. Anyhow, there are the sometimes quite high temps I often encounter on my road trips both near and far: For instance ambient air temps up to 116F coming back from Palo Alto and the Stanford Consourse (and this in late June!) and a bit more distant on a section of I-40 between Kingman AZ and Needles CA with temps up to 118F for miles and miles. Thus I have decided to use Mobil 1 5w-50 oil in both my cars to make my oil life simpler. I only have to buy one type of oil and a few extra bottles of oil left over can be combined with a case of oil (6 quarts the smallest unit of sale the distributor offers) used in the other car. The chances of me ending up with alot of extra bottles of one type of an oil or another is reduced.
The decision to let the dealer fill the Boxster with Mobil 1 0w-40 oil was pure expediency (combined with a bit of curiosity) on my part because it was convenient for me to while having the car's CV boots/joints attended to to have the oil/filter changed. Since I was in a hurry to get out of town I didn't want to take the time to run all the way over to Hayward from Livermore to pick up some more 5w-50 from the Mobil oil distributor. (I did stop in at one auto parts store and Wal-Mart looking for Mobil 1 5w-50 but neither store stocked this oil.)
The Boxster's oil was changed at around 241.6K miles and I will change it again at 245K miles. The oil was changed not too many miles ago when I had the car in for that VarioCam solenoid and actuator job so the engine's not run 5K miles on any oil recently. When I change the oil at 245K miles I'll use Mobil 1 5w-50 oil. My curiosity has been sated because I can say that I hear no difference in the engine's noise output with 0w-40 oil in it. Which is worth something, I guess.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
Seriously, military vehicles can have quite different oil requirements, being different engines (mainly diesel) and perhaps being fitted with engine heaters or the personel having some kind of hot air blowers to pre-heat a dead cold engine before attempting to start it.
I know you (and others) have posted some about the 0W-40 oil's shortcomings. OTOH, there are other equally knowledgeable people that post equally convincing arguments the 0w-40 oil is quite good and go on to say that the negative comments against 0w-40 oil is based on mis-information at best.
I can't say you are right or wrong. But nor can I say the other people are right or wrong.
All I know is that besides being an approved oil (which of course many feel is sufficient grounds to suspect the oil is the worst oil ever) is that many many Porsche engines run with 0w-40 oil and do not show any ill-effects from it. There are far far fewer Porsche vehicles running with any other oil thus we have too small a sample size to make any reasonable judgement that any other oil is better over the same number of vehicles given the same type of vehicle usage, oil change service intervals, etc.
Also, I have gotten tired of the oil debate. To make my life a bit simpler I have elected to return to using an approved oil in the Boxster, though not a 0w-40 oil. Since in my locale low temps never approach -25C I have elected to use a 5w-xx oil and specifically Mobil 1 5w-50 oil since summer time temps can reach easily 90F and higher up to 100F and a bit beyond. Oh, even though I sometimes road trip in the winter I've never encountered temps anywhere near -25C. Anyhow, there are the sometimes quite high temps I often encounter on my road trips both near and far: For instance ambient air temps up to 116F coming back from Palo Alto and the Stanford Consourse (and this in late June!) and a bit more distant on a section of I-40 between Kingman AZ and Needles CA with temps up to 118F for miles and miles. Thus I have decided to use Mobil 1 5w-50 oil in both my cars to make my oil life simpler. I only have to buy one type of oil and a few extra bottles of oil left over can be combined with a case of oil (6 quarts the smallest unit of sale the distributor offers) used in the other car. The chances of me ending up with alot of extra bottles of one type of an oil or another is reduced.
The decision to let the dealer fill the Boxster with Mobil 1 0w-40 oil was pure expediency (combined with a bit of curiosity) on my part because it was convenient for me to while having the car's CV boots/joints attended to to have the oil/filter changed. Since I was in a hurry to get out of town I didn't want to take the time to run all the way over to Hayward from Livermore to pick up some more 5w-50 from the Mobil oil distributor. (I did stop in at one auto parts store and Wal-Mart looking for Mobil 1 5w-50 but neither store stocked this oil.)
The Boxster's oil was changed at around 241.6K miles and I will change it again at 245K miles. The oil was changed not too many miles ago when I had the car in for that VarioCam solenoid and actuator job so the engine's not run 5K miles on any oil recently. When I change the oil at 245K miles I'll use Mobil 1 5w-50 oil. My curiosity has been sated because I can say that I hear no difference in the engine's noise output with 0w-40 oil in it. Which is worth something, I guess.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
| mis information grant - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 3:16:52 pm |
Its very difficult when facts are pitted against opinion.
many people [apparently] don't recognize the long-established trade offs laid down by chemistry. I'm not a CE, but several friends are, and formulate lubricants. The base oil determines the range that it will flow within the APIs bounds. Therefore, wide ranges, *as a proportion, not as a delta* are difficult to achieve. Enter Viscosity index improvers. VIIs result in temporary extension of the range via molecules that are temperature sensitive. But they also shear down. Its a well known fact. And i know various test results at both API and ACEA that bear this out.
Note that 20w50 as a proportion is vastly less than 10w40, although both represent a 30 delta. Actual ratios use neither measure. They use kinematic viscosity figures, typically at several different temperatures ( spec sheets often show 40 and 100 deg C).
therefore the only argument is "how severe the degradation is". The factual point is that there is no free lunch. This is not opinion. It is fact. Others should address this specifically, or accept that the trade off exists. Empirical evidence from samples of one don't count.
Democracy ends where science begins.
If you want DC-light, you give up durability, and likely acquire the fun of sludge building elements.
Now, i've also suggested that we worry a bit too much, if the car sees normal street service. But i vigorously defend the basic principles I've laid out. I get no benefit out of this - no commercial benefit, association etc.
But i do think we should have accurate info presented. Yes, if you see -25F by all means use thin oil. And don't worry too much about how it holds up at 250 deg F. Just don't try to tell me they are one in the same, at least not over the long haul.
All the best.
Grant
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 03:31PM by grant. (view changes)
many people [apparently] don't recognize the long-established trade offs laid down by chemistry. I'm not a CE, but several friends are, and formulate lubricants. The base oil determines the range that it will flow within the APIs bounds. Therefore, wide ranges, *as a proportion, not as a delta* are difficult to achieve. Enter Viscosity index improvers. VIIs result in temporary extension of the range via molecules that are temperature sensitive. But they also shear down. Its a well known fact. And i know various test results at both API and ACEA that bear this out.
Note that 20w50 as a proportion is vastly less than 10w40, although both represent a 30 delta. Actual ratios use neither measure. They use kinematic viscosity figures, typically at several different temperatures ( spec sheets often show 40 and 100 deg C).
therefore the only argument is "how severe the degradation is". The factual point is that there is no free lunch. This is not opinion. It is fact. Others should address this specifically, or accept that the trade off exists. Empirical evidence from samples of one don't count.
Democracy ends where science begins.
If you want DC-light, you give up durability, and likely acquire the fun of sludge building elements.
Now, i've also suggested that we worry a bit too much, if the car sees normal street service. But i vigorously defend the basic principles I've laid out. I get no benefit out of this - no commercial benefit, association etc.
But i do think we should have accurate info presented. Yes, if you see -25F by all means use thin oil. And don't worry too much about how it holds up at 250 deg F. Just don't try to tell me they are one in the same, at least not over the long haul.
All the best.
Grant
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 03:31PM by grant. (view changes)
| This VI improver business comes up but my info is that VI improvers are not necessary for... MarcW - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 8:04:19 pm |
synthetic oils.
VI improvers are a necessity for multi-viscosity grade mineral oils.
They are not necessary for synthetic oils, at least some of them. The multi-viscosity characteristic of a synthetic oil is a function of the oil's synthetic base stock.
Now, VI improvers may be used for some cheaper synthetic oils in order to use a lower grade of synthetic oil stock or less of it yet still deliver something that clicks off the right numbers when subjected to viscosity testing/grading.
A few approved oils I've managed to locate something on their chemical composition the bulk of the oil (>95% of the oil) is synthetic oil base stock with the rest consisting of detergent and contamination fighting additives. I may be reading more into this that there is but this suggests that Porsche approved oils are at least good enough synthetic oils that do not require VI improvers.
Unlike for instance some non-approved oils which have listed a synthetic base stock composition of less than 50% with up to between 1% to 2.5% ZDDP and the rest of the 'oil made up of other additives among which can be mineral oil and a big load of detergents or possibly VI improvers. In one case out of 8 ingredients 6 are listed as trade secret with just their amount in percentage of weight given. Fully half the weight of a unit volume of this oil can be additives, something other than synthetic oil (primarily PAO stock).
Anyhow, after just running the Turbo a bit over 5K miles on this last Mobil 1 5w-50 oil fill I saw no evidence based on the oil pressure gage the oil had lost or gained any viscosity. Hot oil pressure at idle and at other various higher rpms as near as I could tell was the same just before I had the oil changed as it was when the oil was just put in the engine. And I carefully observed the oil pressure readings of this fresh change of oil and I see no difference so based on my observations I do not subscribe to that VI improver break down business, at least for Mobil 1 5w-50 oil.
Engine noise is normal. The engine exhibits no indication it is in any way unhappy with the oil. Oil consumption is very acceptable (a half a quart over 5K miles) and I see no reason to continue searching for a suitable oil.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
VI improvers are a necessity for multi-viscosity grade mineral oils.
They are not necessary for synthetic oils, at least some of them. The multi-viscosity characteristic of a synthetic oil is a function of the oil's synthetic base stock.
Now, VI improvers may be used for some cheaper synthetic oils in order to use a lower grade of synthetic oil stock or less of it yet still deliver something that clicks off the right numbers when subjected to viscosity testing/grading.
A few approved oils I've managed to locate something on their chemical composition the bulk of the oil (>95% of the oil) is synthetic oil base stock with the rest consisting of detergent and contamination fighting additives. I may be reading more into this that there is but this suggests that Porsche approved oils are at least good enough synthetic oils that do not require VI improvers.
Unlike for instance some non-approved oils which have listed a synthetic base stock composition of less than 50% with up to between 1% to 2.5% ZDDP and the rest of the 'oil made up of other additives among which can be mineral oil and a big load of detergents or possibly VI improvers. In one case out of 8 ingredients 6 are listed as trade secret with just their amount in percentage of weight given. Fully half the weight of a unit volume of this oil can be additives, something other than synthetic oil (primarily PAO stock).
Anyhow, after just running the Turbo a bit over 5K miles on this last Mobil 1 5w-50 oil fill I saw no evidence based on the oil pressure gage the oil had lost or gained any viscosity. Hot oil pressure at idle and at other various higher rpms as near as I could tell was the same just before I had the oil changed as it was when the oil was just put in the engine. And I carefully observed the oil pressure readings of this fresh change of oil and I see no difference so based on my observations I do not subscribe to that VI improver break down business, at least for Mobil 1 5w-50 oil.
Engine noise is normal. The engine exhibits no indication it is in any way unhappy with the oil. Oil consumption is very acceptable (a half a quart over 5K miles) and I see no reason to continue searching for a suitable oil.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
| That is wrong. grant - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 8:28:11 pm |
They were not needed when synthetics were 5w30 or 10w40. Those ranges could be achieved with syntehtic stock and was one of the great advances.
But when we go to 5w50 and 0w40 that changes. That's the point!
Incidentally, VIIs (which are not one thing but a class of lubricant molecules) would be listed as synthetic stock. It is synthetic oil, its just a temperature -reactibng long chain polymer. Its small when cold and unfurls when hot. But it is synthetic (heck, anything can be) and it is a lubricant. So you wont necessarily see it listed. You are now out of my depth however.
back to the original - people are taking a factoid from here (from a past context that no longer applies) and merging it with a factoid from now and creating..... nonsense.
Over and most assuredly out. All i can do is provide the current facts. You choose to use it or not. It affects me not the least! Juts want the info out there 0 including - all theory aside - how they performed in test. Which corroborated everything i said.
Grant
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 08:34PM by grant. (view changes)
But when we go to 5w50 and 0w40 that changes. That's the point!
Incidentally, VIIs (which are not one thing but a class of lubricant molecules) would be listed as synthetic stock. It is synthetic oil, its just a temperature -reactibng long chain polymer. Its small when cold and unfurls when hot. But it is synthetic (heck, anything can be) and it is a lubricant. So you wont necessarily see it listed. You are now out of my depth however.
back to the original - people are taking a factoid from here (from a past context that no longer applies) and merging it with a factoid from now and creating..... nonsense.
Over and most assuredly out. All i can do is provide the current facts. You choose to use it or not. It affects me not the least! Juts want the info out there 0 including - all theory aside - how they performed in test. Which corroborated everything i said.
Grant
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 08:34PM by grant. (view changes)
| If these VIIs are needed for 0w-40 or 5w-50 are they not also needed for... MarcW - Thursday, 19 May, 2011, at 9:49:28 pm |
5w-40 or even 10w-40 oils? Thus I can't see how one can escape them then they are everywhere.
I seem to recall (all the discussions have kind of run together over the months) you posting about the results of various oil tests but others on the other side of the argument have offered similar convincing info to back up their point of view.
Thus I'm faced with having to call one side or the other side wrong. I can't do that without making it nothing more than a WAG.
So, I choose to let Porsche tip the scales and have elected to select an oil from its approved list of oils. For its sports cars Porsche has not approved one 5w-30 oil. There are a number of 0w-40 oils, some 5w-40 oils (not all Mobil 5w-40 oils are approved either) and at least one 5w-50 oil: Mobil 1. I note that Castrol Syntec 5w-50 oil is is no longer on the list its approval certification having expired a while back and apparently was not renewed which may mean nothing or everything. I choose to believe the oil has not been substantially changed -- giving Castrol the benefit of the doubt -- but I refuse to use it as long as it does not appear on the list.
Anyhow, Mobil 1 5w-50 is an approved oil and based on the climatic conditions where I live and drive it has a W number that agrees with the low temperatures and a hot viscosity number that suggests the oil will maintain sufficient oil film at elevated temperature and loads to provide my Porsche cars' engines with the necessary lubrication and protection.
Others are free to use whatever criteria they want in order to select an oil. I would not advise one to go off the reservation for an oil but if one wants to and understands (or maybe doesn't what do I care?) the possible risks that's his business.
Sure, Porsche may be all wet regarding oil approval. If I find out it is then it is not a matter of finding a suitable oil it is a matter of disposing of my Porsches as fast as I can and buying a car from another auto maker. Sure the cynics may say one which may also prove to be inept at this oil selection/approval business but I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
I seem to recall (all the discussions have kind of run together over the months) you posting about the results of various oil tests but others on the other side of the argument have offered similar convincing info to back up their point of view.
Thus I'm faced with having to call one side or the other side wrong. I can't do that without making it nothing more than a WAG.
So, I choose to let Porsche tip the scales and have elected to select an oil from its approved list of oils. For its sports cars Porsche has not approved one 5w-30 oil. There are a number of 0w-40 oils, some 5w-40 oils (not all Mobil 5w-40 oils are approved either) and at least one 5w-50 oil: Mobil 1. I note that Castrol Syntec 5w-50 oil is is no longer on the list its approval certification having expired a while back and apparently was not renewed which may mean nothing or everything. I choose to believe the oil has not been substantially changed -- giving Castrol the benefit of the doubt -- but I refuse to use it as long as it does not appear on the list.
Anyhow, Mobil 1 5w-50 is an approved oil and based on the climatic conditions where I live and drive it has a W number that agrees with the low temperatures and a hot viscosity number that suggests the oil will maintain sufficient oil film at elevated temperature and loads to provide my Porsche cars' engines with the necessary lubrication and protection.
Others are free to use whatever criteria they want in order to select an oil. I would not advise one to go off the reservation for an oil but if one wants to and understands (or maybe doesn't what do I care?) the possible risks that's his business.
Sure, Porsche may be all wet regarding oil approval. If I find out it is then it is not a matter of finding a suitable oil it is a matter of disposing of my Porsches as fast as I can and buying a car from another auto maker. Sure the cynics may say one which may also prove to be inept at this oil selection/approval business but I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
| I'm apparently not being clear. grant - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 10:18:16 am |
traditional oils cant meet the specs of even moderate ranges without VIIs.
Along came synthetics, and they could meet traditional ranges, like 10w30, 20w50 without them. Great.
technology improved, they could get wider ranges. Keep in mind that its a ratio - 10w40 and 20w50 are not nearly the same ratio, but they are the same range. And its in kinematic viscosity anyway.
At the same time ( and i did a bit more reading on this after you challenged me) VIIs got better. Rather than chains, they are now "balls" or penahedrons, and don't get sheared as easily. But they are still not ideal.
From what i hear, and from what the tests say, 5w40 is on the hairy edge. 0w40 is over it. Want proof? Read mobil's on data sheets. 0w40 has a hths # (IMO, the only one we care much about) of 3.6. It is actually 3.57. The cutoff for ACEA A3 is 3.5. M1 10w40 --- also a 40 weight at temp -- has an HTHS of >4. Why is this? because the 0w40 is not really 0w40, not when you shear it at hgih speed and high temp. We cna begin to read between the lines. We can also recognize that the world is nto binary - its typically analog. Its not "on" or "off" but "better" and "worse". So might some 5w40 need VIIs? Maybe, but if so, less. I don't formulate. I just talk to those who do.
So the quick answer is "nop", btu the longer answer is "maybe" and "since its a degree of success or fail, who cares?"
We DO know, from the specs, and also from UOA, that M1 0w40 has trouble meting the only industry test for running oil hot at hgih speeds and still protecting the bearings.
Grant
Along came synthetics, and they could meet traditional ranges, like 10w30, 20w50 without them. Great.
technology improved, they could get wider ranges. Keep in mind that its a ratio - 10w40 and 20w50 are not nearly the same ratio, but they are the same range. And its in kinematic viscosity anyway.
At the same time ( and i did a bit more reading on this after you challenged me) VIIs got better. Rather than chains, they are now "balls" or penahedrons, and don't get sheared as easily. But they are still not ideal.
From what i hear, and from what the tests say, 5w40 is on the hairy edge. 0w40 is over it. Want proof? Read mobil's on data sheets. 0w40 has a hths # (IMO, the only one we care much about) of 3.6. It is actually 3.57. The cutoff for ACEA A3 is 3.5. M1 10w40 --- also a 40 weight at temp -- has an HTHS of >4. Why is this? because the 0w40 is not really 0w40, not when you shear it at hgih speed and high temp. We cna begin to read between the lines. We can also recognize that the world is nto binary - its typically analog. Its not "on" or "off" but "better" and "worse". So might some 5w40 need VIIs? Maybe, but if so, less. I don't formulate. I just talk to those who do.
So the quick answer is "nop", btu the longer answer is "maybe" and "since its a degree of success or fail, who cares?"
We DO know, from the specs, and also from UOA, that M1 0w40 has trouble meting the only industry test for running oil hot at hgih speeds and still protecting the bearings.
Grant
| incidentally, if you rarely run them hard... grant - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 10:36:49 am |
i could see an argument that the wide range of say 5w50 or 0w40, even withe VIIs, being advantageous due to fast full flow and at least temporary protection at hgih speed/temp (until it shears). Just change frequently.
But frankly, in our climates, 5w and even 10w is just fine.
Grant
But frankly, in our climates, 5w and even 10w is just fine.
Grant
Laz - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 10:05:22 pm |
| Do you have an oil pressure gauge? grant - Thursday, 19 May, 2011, at 11:34:50 am |
i don't, not in this car. Nor a oil temp gauge either. Anyway, viscosity loss will only occur under severe circumstances.
And (my guess) only be evident at very elevated temperatures.
Yet the same shear (if it occurs) creates sludge components that are always there.
As noted, its more theory than practical, except for track drivers and racers. <== this is important***
For 95% of us i would not hesitate to use 5w30
But at the same time, it would not be my first choice.
Grant
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 11:36AM by grant. (view changes)
And (my guess) only be evident at very elevated temperatures.
Yet the same shear (if it occurs) creates sludge components that are always there.
As noted, its more theory than practical, except for track drivers and racers. <== this is important***
For 95% of us i would not hesitate to use 5w30
But at the same time, it would not be my first choice.
Grant
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 11:36AM by grant. (view changes)
| Well, maybe... maybe not... MarcW - Thursday, 19 May, 2011, at 10:44:26 pm |
Upon switching to a 5w-50 oil (initially Mobil 1 and I had to order it) it seemed to me that all other things being as equal as I could tell (though I used no other instrumentation to verify this) the oil pressure at hot idle and other rpm points was a bit improved, by a fraction of a bar. Say instead of 1.7 (estimated because the oil gage doesn't have that resolution) the oil pressure was closer to but not all the way to 2.0 bar, compared to what I remembered it was with 0w-40 or 5w-40 oil in the engine. I mean the gage's needle just seemed to read a little higher than I remembered from other oils and at the same point in the oil's service life, from immediately after the oil was changed to 5K miles later just before the oil was changed.
But you know the difference was so slight I can't say for sure and I don't have the time to go through the bother of running an oil pressure test with an accurate oil pressure gage connected to the engine with a variety of oils immediately after an oil change and again say at 5K miles. I don't even want to bother with an oil analysis.
I know some get tired of hearing/reading about this but I have managed to get quite a few miles from my Boxster and so far while the engine has experienced a few problems internally none of the problems appear to be oil related, just normal wear and tear. But whether they're tired or not of reading/hearing this I have to point out that I have run a variety of oils in the engine, some approved and some not (but not for long and still oils I believed were good oils). Primarily I think the fact I drive the car a lot and change the oil every 5K miles has meant that no oil has degraded enough to cause any harm to the engine.
Anyhow, I have decided to bring my search for the oil to end all oils to a halt and just use an approved oil and as I covered in a post above, decided for the type of driving I do and the temps in which I drive, Mobil 1 5w-50 was the oil for my cars. I suspect the engines would perfectly happy using any of the approved 0w-40 or 5w-40 oils but 5w-50 just 'feels' better. I feel like I'm giving the engines a bit more protection. It may be all psychological but you know I don't care. It is an approved oil and that's good enough for me. But as I covered above, if I learn otherwise, then Porsche has lost me as a customer, forever.
I don't intend this to be a come over to the Mobil 1 0w-40, 5w-40 or 5w-50 side sales pitch either. My recommendation is use an approved oil that has a viscosity grade that agrees with the temps where you live and drive. Which obviously is just repeating the guidelines/recommendation Porsche has in its approved oils list document. These engines are made by Porsche and Porsche to some level is responsible for the engines, their performance and longevity. It seems to me then that what Porsche has to say on this subject carries a lot of weight, far more weight than what any other company or person could have to say.
(As aside, my impression is many want to believe that any oil not on the list is due to some conspiracy but what the reasoning for Porsche to be involved in this is beyond me. My thinking is a bit less conspiratorial. It just may be the oil maker knows the oil is not suitable for the list, that for one reason or another it doesn't meet the standards that Porsche has set and which as best I can tell doesn't publish save the oil must be synthetic, have a multi-viscosity grade of 0w-40, 5w-40 and 5w-50. That these approved oils all meet some SAE, API or other oil standards classifications doesn't mean any oil that has matching SAE, API or other oil standards classifications is automatically approved. There's something deeper involved and it doesn't involve payoffs or bribery or whatever. It may just be that Porsche as an automaker of the1st magnitude -- which is one reason why many of us love and buy Porsches -- knows what the hell it is doing and has put together a list of suitable oils intended to allow the engine and the car to deliver the pleasurable experience we all paid dearly for and which we all expect to receive, in spades.)
Sorry, kind of went off there a bit.. Anyhow, if you want to use another oil, for whatever reasons, then that is your decision.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
But you know the difference was so slight I can't say for sure and I don't have the time to go through the bother of running an oil pressure test with an accurate oil pressure gage connected to the engine with a variety of oils immediately after an oil change and again say at 5K miles. I don't even want to bother with an oil analysis.
I know some get tired of hearing/reading about this but I have managed to get quite a few miles from my Boxster and so far while the engine has experienced a few problems internally none of the problems appear to be oil related, just normal wear and tear. But whether they're tired or not of reading/hearing this I have to point out that I have run a variety of oils in the engine, some approved and some not (but not for long and still oils I believed were good oils). Primarily I think the fact I drive the car a lot and change the oil every 5K miles has meant that no oil has degraded enough to cause any harm to the engine.
Anyhow, I have decided to bring my search for the oil to end all oils to a halt and just use an approved oil and as I covered in a post above, decided for the type of driving I do and the temps in which I drive, Mobil 1 5w-50 was the oil for my cars. I suspect the engines would perfectly happy using any of the approved 0w-40 or 5w-40 oils but 5w-50 just 'feels' better. I feel like I'm giving the engines a bit more protection. It may be all psychological but you know I don't care. It is an approved oil and that's good enough for me. But as I covered above, if I learn otherwise, then Porsche has lost me as a customer, forever.
I don't intend this to be a come over to the Mobil 1 0w-40, 5w-40 or 5w-50 side sales pitch either. My recommendation is use an approved oil that has a viscosity grade that agrees with the temps where you live and drive. Which obviously is just repeating the guidelines/recommendation Porsche has in its approved oils list document. These engines are made by Porsche and Porsche to some level is responsible for the engines, their performance and longevity. It seems to me then that what Porsche has to say on this subject carries a lot of weight, far more weight than what any other company or person could have to say.
(As aside, my impression is many want to believe that any oil not on the list is due to some conspiracy but what the reasoning for Porsche to be involved in this is beyond me. My thinking is a bit less conspiratorial. It just may be the oil maker knows the oil is not suitable for the list, that for one reason or another it doesn't meet the standards that Porsche has set and which as best I can tell doesn't publish save the oil must be synthetic, have a multi-viscosity grade of 0w-40, 5w-40 and 5w-50. That these approved oils all meet some SAE, API or other oil standards classifications doesn't mean any oil that has matching SAE, API or other oil standards classifications is automatically approved. There's something deeper involved and it doesn't involve payoffs or bribery or whatever. It may just be that Porsche as an automaker of the1st magnitude -- which is one reason why many of us love and buy Porsches -- knows what the hell it is doing and has put together a list of suitable oils intended to allow the engine and the car to deliver the pleasurable experience we all paid dearly for and which we all expect to receive, in spades.)
Sorry, kind of went off there a bit.. Anyhow, if you want to use another oil, for whatever reasons, then that is your decision.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
Laz - Thursday, 19 May, 2011, at 10:55:10 pm |
| except that.. grant - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 10:21:18 am |
you and i and marc are under no pressure to compromise wear to meet CAFE or European green regs. Porsche is.
I believe people largely do what you incent them to do. Same with that 20k oil change interval that they quickly abandoned.
Presumably because they realized it was failing miserably.
Grant
I believe people largely do what you incent them to do. Same with that 20k oil change interval that they quickly abandoned.
Presumably because they realized it was failing miserably.
Grant
Laz - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 12:30:57 pm |
Laz - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 10:21:55 am |
The chirp might be a pulley or the belt.
This next point is controversial, but as stock Porsche pads last for so many thousands of miles, the rotors wear should be enough to warrant changing them at the same time, whether or not there is metal to metal contact. It's not just rotor wear limit per se, but that a substantial raised lip is left at the outer and inner circumferential areas of the discs' surfaces. These might cause the new pads to not seat properly, at least for an extended period of use.
This next point is controversial, but as stock Porsche pads last for so many thousands of miles, the rotors wear should be enough to warrant changing them at the same time, whether or not there is metal to metal contact. It's not just rotor wear limit per se, but that a substantial raised lip is left at the outer and inner circumferential areas of the discs' surfaces. These might cause the new pads to not seat properly, at least for an extended period of use.
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... Dwass - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 3:35:19 pm |
Laz - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 3:52:59 pm |
| Re: Your followup question is for someone else to answer. (Noise.) Mine was concerning the rotors. Dwass - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 4:10:08 pm |
No worries. Truth is, these kind of noises are often impossible to figure out without seeing the car. If the clutch is replaced and the noise is still there, it'll be something el$se.
On the brakes issue, you raise a good point. I could replace the pads and rotors and probably still come out ahead of the dealer. Also, when I had the brakes repaired last time, the service guy said "Porsche says to always replace the rotors with the brakes". Whether this is true or necessary, it could (in my mind) perhaps prolong the life of the pads... Am I crazy to think that?
On the brakes issue, you raise a good point. I could replace the pads and rotors and probably still come out ahead of the dealer. Also, when I had the brakes repaired last time, the service guy said "Porsche says to always replace the rotors with the brakes". Whether this is true or necessary, it could (in my mind) perhaps prolong the life of the pads... Am I crazy to think that?
Laz - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 4:20:43 pm |
| If you're going to do the clutch, you might as well do the LN IMS, new style RMS, and AOS........ JiminAZ - Tuesday, 17 May, 2011, at 1:26:24 pm |
| Re: Time for some pretty major maintenance and I need some advice. DIYs or dealer too... boxsterd - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 1:35:34 am |
As you surmised a new clutch isn't DIY. That said, if you're replacing the clutch, I suggest you also have the RMS replaced, and replace the IMS bearing with a ceramic bearing from LN Engineering. I had all three done by a dealer for about $3000.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 01:40AM by boxsterd. (view changes)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 01:40AM by boxsterd. (view changes)
| Many answers grant - Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, at 3:39:27 pm |
Oil - easy. $60 oil at Wal-Mart and a $15 filter vs. whatever your dealer charges. You'll need ramps, a big catch bucket, a filter wrench, and a 8Mm allen extension. Takes less time than dropping the car off and picking it up, for me at least.
brakes - also quite easy. Need jack stands, basic tools, brake cleaner (read marc's advice to me - then read it again) - pads are $100-125/set. You wont need rears. You wont need rotors either. I go through 2-3 sets of pads per set of rotors. I prefer NOT to turn them - it leaves more material, and pads quickly shape themselves to rotor irregularities. Since i am on tracks with some regularity, i get lots of this fun (pads = 5 track days). Textar OEM pads are good, as are Hawk HPS and Stoptech 309s - all are street pads suitable for light track use. or not. get a power bleeder abnd flusht he fluid too ($50 for the bleeder, $15 for the fluid). I have seen dealers charge outrageous sums for brakes.
Clutch- $1500 is a very good price. Expect to pay a bit more. Engine does not come out - only the tranny drops.
I think all of these are on Pedro's site as how tos. Dont hesitate to ask questions. My email is open and on the site.
Grant
brakes - also quite easy. Need jack stands, basic tools, brake cleaner (read marc's advice to me - then read it again) - pads are $100-125/set. You wont need rears. You wont need rotors either. I go through 2-3 sets of pads per set of rotors. I prefer NOT to turn them - it leaves more material, and pads quickly shape themselves to rotor irregularities. Since i am on tracks with some regularity, i get lots of this fun (pads = 5 track days). Textar OEM pads are good, as are Hawk HPS and Stoptech 309s - all are street pads suitable for light track use. or not. get a power bleeder abnd flusht he fluid too ($50 for the bleeder, $15 for the fluid). I have seen dealers charge outrageous sums for brakes.
Clutch- $1500 is a very good price. Expect to pay a bit more. Engine does not come out - only the tranny drops.
I think all of these are on Pedro's site as how tos. Dont hesitate to ask questions. My email is open and on the site.
Grant
| **UPDATE** Dwass - Thursday, 19 May, 2011, at 11:40:58 pm |
I've been looking for a good independent in Chicago... Most seem to be over $125/hr. I did find someone who is about $95/hr which seems "ok", unless anyone knows or can recommend someone else???
Anyway, we're fearing the worst at that this point regarding the clutch and flywheel... since I'm slipping in second (if I put my foot down, no slipping if relaxed throttle acceleration), the flywheel may need to be replaced.
OK.... so....
If I do the clutch, I would obviously have the flywheel done if needed, but what else should I do? Besides RMS, we all agree to that, right?
IMS: IMconfused. There's the IMS bearing and then there's the IMS seal? (huh?)... I've been digging around and read that there's no Porsche replacement part since it's supposed to last the life of the engine (referring the the bearing here). Is this true??? SO confused after reading things now... Replace that? (IMS _______?)
Flywheel:EXPENSIVE.... Is this the part number: 986-114-012-05? If I type that in google, I get "LUK" flywheel. If that's correct and I could just get the LUK one, I'd save about $250. Is LUK just the manufacture name? Thoughts?
Brakes: I'll do it, it can't be that bad. I don't have to bleed the brakes, as far as I know, just pads and rotor replace. My rear rotors are real bad, especially the inside face and the pads are less than 2mm from what I can tell. Front pads are at about 2mm and rotors are too "lippy" on the edge (about or over 1mm). I'm nervous about jack stands... I have read a few write ups and everyone seems to have "their" way. If someone thinks a specific article/link is good for a guy like me, do share please. Hockey puck method seems to be a favorite...
Oil: I'll do it... soonish. Thanks for the tips on the oil types... I didn't anticipate such an interesting discussion! I will use the ramps for that, is that ok? I know someone here, maybe Pedro? said that it's better if the whole car is lifted so that oil doesn't remain. I guess oil would "slosh" to the side and residual oil would remain if that's the case. I suppose I may need jack stands for this too. I would do it with the brakes is if this the case (also AOS, see next).
AOS: I cannot find the DIY article I saw a few months ago on it. ANYWHERE. I have seen some stuff on a few other sites, I don't remember seeing that you have to lift the car and remove a wheel. Seems easy enough to access from underneath the car without removing the wheel. Can't I just use ramps? In general though, I don't even know if my AOS is bad... I DO KNOW that I have oil around the crank case. Logic says, why not replace the aged part. I figure it's a few hours of work and I'll save $300+ on that + possible catastrophic failure. I like projects anyway and the satisfaction that goes with the completion.
Now, you're me. You know you need a new clutch. You're slipping in second. They guy who's doing the work quotes parts prices higher than I could get them, he said I could bring my own (Porsche) parts. I am not in the best financial shape right now, but I need to keep my car and myself safe. I must be wise and realistic.
-Do I do (order) the flywheel without looking at it first? How can you really tell if it's bad. Does it only go bad ONLY if the clutch is low enough?
-How many hours should it take to do the RMS and "IMS seal".... guy added an additional 3 hours labor for that. I thought it was RIGHT there when the trans is off. Maybe I'm wrong.
-Assume I have the indy do the clutch, (flywheel?), RMS, (IMS?). What else would be wise even if it's not "bad" yet to replace. The car is driven year round in Chicago... extreme cold and extreme heat. Parked outside. 11 years old. 52,000 miles. Things wear down, things go bad. If I can save labor charges down the road and get another 10+ years out of this job, what should I add/do?
Thanks for the help.... this is overwhelming. I just don't want to mess up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 11:49PM by Dwass. (view changes)
Anyway, we're fearing the worst at that this point regarding the clutch and flywheel... since I'm slipping in second (if I put my foot down, no slipping if relaxed throttle acceleration), the flywheel may need to be replaced.
OK.... so....
If I do the clutch, I would obviously have the flywheel done if needed, but what else should I do? Besides RMS, we all agree to that, right?
IMS: IMconfused. There's the IMS bearing and then there's the IMS seal? (huh?)... I've been digging around and read that there's no Porsche replacement part since it's supposed to last the life of the engine (referring the the bearing here). Is this true??? SO confused after reading things now... Replace that? (IMS _______?)
Flywheel:EXPENSIVE.... Is this the part number: 986-114-012-05? If I type that in google, I get "LUK" flywheel. If that's correct and I could just get the LUK one, I'd save about $250. Is LUK just the manufacture name? Thoughts?
Brakes: I'll do it, it can't be that bad. I don't have to bleed the brakes, as far as I know, just pads and rotor replace. My rear rotors are real bad, especially the inside face and the pads are less than 2mm from what I can tell. Front pads are at about 2mm and rotors are too "lippy" on the edge (about or over 1mm). I'm nervous about jack stands... I have read a few write ups and everyone seems to have "their" way. If someone thinks a specific article/link is good for a guy like me, do share please. Hockey puck method seems to be a favorite...
Oil: I'll do it... soonish. Thanks for the tips on the oil types... I didn't anticipate such an interesting discussion! I will use the ramps for that, is that ok? I know someone here, maybe Pedro? said that it's better if the whole car is lifted so that oil doesn't remain. I guess oil would "slosh" to the side and residual oil would remain if that's the case. I suppose I may need jack stands for this too. I would do it with the brakes is if this the case (also AOS, see next).
AOS: I cannot find the DIY article I saw a few months ago on it. ANYWHERE. I have seen some stuff on a few other sites, I don't remember seeing that you have to lift the car and remove a wheel. Seems easy enough to access from underneath the car without removing the wheel. Can't I just use ramps? In general though, I don't even know if my AOS is bad... I DO KNOW that I have oil around the crank case. Logic says, why not replace the aged part. I figure it's a few hours of work and I'll save $300+ on that + possible catastrophic failure. I like projects anyway and the satisfaction that goes with the completion.
Now, you're me. You know you need a new clutch. You're slipping in second. They guy who's doing the work quotes parts prices higher than I could get them, he said I could bring my own (Porsche) parts. I am not in the best financial shape right now, but I need to keep my car and myself safe. I must be wise and realistic.
-Do I do (order) the flywheel without looking at it first? How can you really tell if it's bad. Does it only go bad ONLY if the clutch is low enough?
-How many hours should it take to do the RMS and "IMS seal".... guy added an additional 3 hours labor for that. I thought it was RIGHT there when the trans is off. Maybe I'm wrong.
-Assume I have the indy do the clutch, (flywheel?), RMS, (IMS?). What else would be wise even if it's not "bad" yet to replace. The car is driven year round in Chicago... extreme cold and extreme heat. Parked outside. 11 years old. 52,000 miles. Things wear down, things go bad. If I can save labor charges down the road and get another 10+ years out of this job, what should I add/do?
Thanks for the help.... this is overwhelming. I just don't want to mess up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 11:49PM by Dwass. (view changes)
| Re: **UPDATE** boxsterd - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 1:22:06 am |
I've never heard of replacing an IMS seal. Perhaps you're confusing it with RMS (Rear Main Seal)? I had the IMS bearing replaced because if it fails, and it has been known to fail, the engine is toast and will need to be replaced. The ceramic bearing from LN Engineering is expensive, something like $500 or $600, but since the transmission was already out to have the RMS seal replaced, saving labor costs, I figured it was worth the peace of mind to replace the bearing even though there was nothing wrong with it. You can read more about the LN Engineering IMS bearing here:
[www.lnengineering.com]
[www.lnengineering.com]
| Re: **UPDATE** Dwass - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 2:10:02 am |
Yeah, I started digging a bit more, I had seen that youtube video from LNE, but now I see the site.
Another expensive part that I'll kick myself later if it fails for not being replaced.
Maybe I'll do it...
Just need to see how I can afford all of this at once.
Thanks again for the info!
Another expensive part that I'll kick myself later if it fails for not being replaced.
Maybe I'll do it...
Just need to see how I can afford all of this at once.
Thanks again for the info!
I should sleep, while I still can, but I just did some more research on IMS failure.
So I have this chirping sound. It's continuous. I seriously don't think it's a belt. I really hope it's not IMS.
BUT
I don't think it's IMS... at least the chirping I'm talking about.
Reason?
As stated in an earlier post, the sound is present after the car has been warmed up. It's continuous, regular, same tone... AND it "magically" goes away when I press the clutch pedal to the floor. The second I let the clutch out, mind you, I'm in neutral, the sound returns. I don't notice it when I'm driving because of the engine noise and the GHL exhaust.
The mechanic I may use thinks it could be the throwout bearing.
What's so frustrating about this and car noises in general is that they are disconcerting (to say the least), annoying, hard to diagnose/locate, AND the WORST is when you spend $$$ thinking you fixed it only to find that it's still there. I'd hate to waste an opportunity with the transmission out to not fix it. So there's a good chance it's clutch related, but what could it be???
Appreciate your thoughts!
So I have this chirping sound. It's continuous. I seriously don't think it's a belt. I really hope it's not IMS.
BUT
I don't think it's IMS... at least the chirping I'm talking about.
Reason?
As stated in an earlier post, the sound is present after the car has been warmed up. It's continuous, regular, same tone... AND it "magically" goes away when I press the clutch pedal to the floor. The second I let the clutch out, mind you, I'm in neutral, the sound returns. I don't notice it when I'm driving because of the engine noise and the GHL exhaust.
The mechanic I may use thinks it could be the throwout bearing.
What's so frustrating about this and car noises in general is that they are disconcerting (to say the least), annoying, hard to diagnose/locate, AND the WORST is when you spend $$$ thinking you fixed it only to find that it's still there. I'd hate to waste an opportunity with the transmission out to not fix it. So there's a good chance it's clutch related, but what could it be???
Appreciate your thoughts!
| Re: **UPDATE** Dwass - Friday, 20 May, 2011, at 1:05:48 pm |
The IMS issue is a bearing that supports one end of a shaft that down-gears the cams. If it fails, the motor is instantly, 100%, toast.
There is no certainty on the failure rate.
It is located behind the flywheel. Once you have the tranny and clutch out, its right there staring at you. A slightly tricky job requiring severla special tools, but no big deal for someone who does them regularly.
You have three options.
1. do nothing, play the odds.
2. get OEM replacement part from Porsche or Pelican parts. Same part, same problem. Or not.
3. Get the LN engineering part. $700. IMNSHO, worth every penny.
Labor is the same either way.
There is no "seal". There is a cover that is part of the bearing.
Unlike the RMS, which is a nuisance at worst, this is catastrophe at worst.
Search and you can see picture of mine out of the car. Pics are also on LN's site.
Grant
There is no certainty on the failure rate.
It is located behind the flywheel. Once you have the tranny and clutch out, its right there staring at you. A slightly tricky job requiring severla special tools, but no big deal for someone who does them regularly.
You have three options.
1. do nothing, play the odds.
2. get OEM replacement part from Porsche or Pelican parts. Same part, same problem. Or not.
3. Get the LN engineering part. $700. IMNSHO, worth every penny.
Labor is the same either way.
There is no "seal". There is a cover that is part of the bearing.
Unlike the RMS, which is a nuisance at worst, this is catastrophe at worst.
Search and you can see picture of mine out of the car. Pics are also on LN's site.
Grant
| Two observations on Grant's info ... Pedro (Odessa, FL) - Saturday, 21 May, 2011, at 10:38:22 am |
... I don't believe that an IMS failure dictates that the motor is instantly 100% toast.
There are different levels of failure and I have seen (my own car, included) IMS bearings that have been replaced with quite a bit of play but before complete degradation and the engine was saved.
Also, if you decide to replace the IMS bearing with an OEM bearing and not the LNE retrofit, the engine has to be removed and the block has to be opened.
The beauty of the LNE retrofit is that the engine stays in place and doesn't have to be opened.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
There are different levels of failure and I have seen (my own car, included) IMS bearings that have been replaced with quite a bit of play but before complete degradation and the engine was saved.
Also, if you decide to replace the IMS bearing with an OEM bearing and not the LNE retrofit, the engine has to be removed and the block has to be opened.
The beauty of the LNE retrofit is that the engine stays in place and doesn't have to be opened.
Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"
"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti
"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna
| As I understand it mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Saturday, 21 May, 2011, at 1:36:37 pm |
there is the LN kit and a "soon to be available" Pelican kit. Each are available for the early single and double row bearing.
There is no Pelican version for the last version of the IMS which does require the removal of the engine and "splitting" of the case and shipping the IMS shaft to LN. I don't know of any other option for the latest IMS design.
I don't know of any replacement kits available from Porsche.
There is no difference in installation procedures that I know of. Wayne has said Pelican's kit uses the same tools.
This table of similarities/differences between the kits were vetted by Charles and Wayne in January http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/mikesporscheboxsterwebpages/ims-kits
I would expect to re-verify the table when the Pelican kit is really available for purchase.
I don't know any reason why the use of the Pelican kit would be preferred other than price. If one were to intend to keep the car a long time, the LN would seem the route to go. To patch up the car at minimum expense to sell, then perhaps Pelican.
There is no Pelican version for the last version of the IMS which does require the removal of the engine and "splitting" of the case and shipping the IMS shaft to LN. I don't know of any other option for the latest IMS design.
I don't know of any replacement kits available from Porsche.
There is no difference in installation procedures that I know of. Wayne has said Pelican's kit uses the same tools.
This table of similarities/differences between the kits were vetted by Charles and Wayne in January http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/mikesporscheboxsterwebpages/ims-kits
I would expect to re-verify the table when the Pelican kit is really available for purchase.
I don't know any reason why the use of the Pelican kit would be preferred other than price. If one were to intend to keep the car a long time, the LN would seem the route to go. To patch up the car at minimum expense to sell, then perhaps Pelican.
| Me too. That's what i was referring to. I still ike the LN kit though. *NM* grant - Saturday, 21 May, 2011, at 3:33:32 pm |
| Re: As I understand it - IMS stuff Bobtesa - Saturday, 21 May, 2011, at 7:53:27 pm |
Mike, you are correct for the "last version", 3rd, 2006-2008 iteration of the IMS - the engine has to be taken apart. I find it interesting that LN and a link their site is now included in the emails I get from my dealer. A few comments as best as I can remember from reading the LN info:
First, every Boxster owner should read the info LN provides (because there is a lot of great info there and below is from my faulty memeory).
They did some fancy statistical ananysis and estimate a 10% failure rate at 90,000 miles. BUT, this seems to depend on -
How you drive (have fun with it! Drive it like it is meant to be driven. But, warm it up first.)
Don't drive too little. (My read on this: a 5 year old car with 5,000 miles may not be the great buy it looks like.)
Change oil more regularly then is recommended - I think they said every 5K miles or 6 months.
They wrote quite a bit about oils, but that was all beyond my understanding. I plan to talk with my dealer about this for the next oil change.
I was very unhappy to learn that LN has now seen some 2006 IMS failures. I bought my 2008 two years ago hoping Porsche had solved the problem. Even worse, now if I decide to replace my IMS with an LN version, it will be even more coslty because of the engine tear down that is required.
1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson
First, every Boxster owner should read the info LN provides (because there is a lot of great info there and below is from my faulty memeory).
They did some fancy statistical ananysis and estimate a 10% failure rate at 90,000 miles. BUT, this seems to depend on -
How you drive (have fun with it! Drive it like it is meant to be driven. But, warm it up first.)
Don't drive too little. (My read on this: a 5 year old car with 5,000 miles may not be the great buy it looks like.)
Change oil more regularly then is recommended - I think they said every 5K miles or 6 months.
They wrote quite a bit about oils, but that was all beyond my understanding. I plan to talk with my dealer about this for the next oil change.
I was very unhappy to learn that LN has now seen some 2006 IMS failures. I bought my 2008 two years ago hoping Porsche had solved the problem. Even worse, now if I decide to replace my IMS with an LN version, it will be even more coslty because of the engine tear down that is required.
1999 Arctic Sivler/black/black (sold)
2008s Silver/black/black - so predictable
2011 Outback
8/24/2011 first Grandson
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