Caveat Emptor - big time *NM*

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/630121-ims-new-detection-speculation-28.html

No connection, just happened to blunder over it this AM. Details are said to come out on 7/8.

... of a reliable sensor that could determine with certainty an impending IMS bearing failure.
We'd have to wait and see if it will do that, but I'm intrigued.
I always applaud inventiveness and entrepreneurship and I hope it works and makes Jake a lot of money.
Happy Porsche-ing,
Pedro

Pedro Bonilla
1998 Boxster 986 - 311,000+ miles: [www.PedrosGarage.com]
PCA National Club Racing Scrutineer - PCA National HPDE Instructor - PCA Technical Committee (Boxster/Cayman)

---

Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar

"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting" ... Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney in "LeMans"

"If you wait, all that happens is that you get older"... Mario Andretti

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose" ... Ayrton Senna

Yeah - I saw that the other day too. It took me 2 days off and on to read through the 28 pages of posts !!! Geez - there's a lot of people willing to drink the Kool-Aid without much knowledge.

I admit it sounds intriguing, but I believe I'll wait until the product is unveiled and Pedro has some time to offer a second opinion.

See my other pastime at www.gothamcityracing.net

Wonder if it is a Y-shaped stick where you put the arms of the Y in each hand, and then waive the stick part over your engine compartment. If the stick dips down when moved over the IMS, you're in deep doo doo. ONce you know for sure, the device can be used in the same manner to help you detect underground water.

All I want is the guarantee that if I install it and the IMS fails without it detecting it, they pay for the new crate motor from Porsche. Of course with the legal and accounting guarantee of a trust account to pay for it. Else, I could just buy an extended warranty from US fidelis (they went bankrupt and their management was charged with fraud) and get the equivalent warm and fuzzy feeling.

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

you could just pee on your hand and stick it in feathers it would feel warm and fuzzy for a lot less and it would wash off unlike the sucker you would see on your forehead every time you shaved should you "step right up" for this action when the sensor goes off 6 months after installation

From his website:

"I warranty the things that I assemble 100% start to finish with my own hands, from scratch, but not otherwise. We hate to be so direct with these statements, but we are realists and this is simply reality.

The IMS Retrofit procedure is considered "Experimental", it always has been and always will be, because it is not recognized by Porsche at all. Upon completion of your vehicle we'll have you sign an waiver stating that you understand the risks associated with this experimental procedure and are willing to assume them 100%, not holding my company responsible for your engine in any way, shape or form. "

Quote
Roger987
From his website:

"I warranty the things that I assemble 100% start to finish with my own hands, from scratch, but not otherwise. We hate to be so direct with these statements, but we are realists and this is simply reality.

The IMS Retrofit procedure is considered "Experimental", it always has been and always will be, because it is not recognized by Porsche at all. Upon completion of your vehicle we'll have you sign an waiver stating that you understand the risks associated with this experimental procedure and are willing to assume them 100%, not holding my company responsible for your engine in any way, shape or form. "

signing that would officially make you a sucker in writing

[tinyurl.com]

Dave - 06 987 S coupe SG/NL; gone (but still my first love): 03 986 AS/GG/BK;

Roger:

So if I understand this statement, even if he puts in the IMS replacement unit himself, he doesn't warranty the unit from a IMS failure because it is not part of an engine assembly that he has assembly completely himself..right?

And his rationale for not providing any warranty of the part he's supplying and installing completely eludes me.

I would have thought that given he asserts his bearing assembly is far superior to the factory part, he'd warranty his component, at the very least.

I'm not saying his component isn't any good, or that it isn't wise to install it in our engines. I'm just very suprised he doesn't appear to be standing behind it at all. In fact, he's going out of his way to make sure the buyer will NOT hold him responsible, in any way, for the component's failure.

I'll stick with changing my oil regularly and, each time, examining the filter closely for metal bits.

Hmm.. just out of curiosity, if I buy a stock IMS from Suncoast or get one from a local dealer and have it installed by the dealer or a Indi, is that part warrantied by Porsche? If so what are the terms?

Terms are here:

[www.porsche.com]

This is correct.
The reason for this is very simple, since I am a very direct person that avoids "issues" at all costs I can explain it to you:

We go to exceptional measures to ensure than any vehicle that we apply a retrofit bearing to is worthy of the expenditure of time and money that the procedure costs. This includes pre-eval Dyno tests to compare engine output to our standards from dozens of other like engines, to sump removal and inspection, oil filter removal and inspection and even leak down and compression tests if an engine has any questions concerning it's integrity. A couple of weeks ago a car arrived here that I decided not to carry out a retrofit procedure on. The engine had 80K miles, yet it made 30HP less on the dyno than it should have, the AFR was good but the engine started up like it had low compression, so we completed a leak down and compression test and it failed horribly on every cylinder. The owner had driven the car here, so he was able to see the real numbers and the fact that the engine had issues. We decided that the procedure would be throwing money away, because the engine was clearly losing it's ring seal. That was an example of an engine that came here for a procedure and we found an issue that was impending, but how about the hidden issues that no one can find? How about the ones that have no symptoms, like IMS tensioner paddle failure?

Having spent the majority of my childhood and my complete adult life in the mechanical world with both automotive and aviation backgrounds I can tell you that anytime anything happens to an engine that isn't positive a finger pointing exercise begins. I am up front, direct and painfully blunt about the fact that we will not guarantee any portion of an IMS procedure, not even the bearing. I do this, because I want to completely avoid dealing with instances where a finger pointing exercise if an engine experiences one of the other 21 modes of failure that we have documented after the procedure is carried out. When an engine fails after ANY WORK is done to it BY ANYONE the finger gets pointed sharply at the last pair of hands to have touched the engine. Considering that a number of engine failures are somehow related to the areas surrounding the IMS (IMS tensioner paddle, IMS drive chain, tensioner paddle wear surfaces) these things can fail and either appear to be the IMS bearing, or the IMS bearing can see damage as part of the collateral impacts the primary failure leads to.

This is a real concern for me and thats why I state it in every directive and information transmission that we have with potential clients before we engage the project, when someone has the procedure carried out they understand this and agree to it. The poster that copied the content from my site into this forum proves this. I have nothing to hide and would rather not work with the portion of the following that isn't able to understand my rationale behind this decision. That said, no one seems to have an issue with it, because this forum is the first place that I have ever had these terms challenged in 3 years and I've never had a client have a problem with endorsing the documents and mailing them back, or signing them at my desk. More than the signature, what matters to me is that the person simply understands that nothing mechanical is absolute or perfect and that this entire procedure is considered by the manufacturer of the engine to be "impossible". (at least with a dual row bearing)

That said, LN does offer a 1 year guarantee on the actual IMS Bearing which covers the bearing that we retrofit only, not the engine or associated items.

So, what happens when an engine that we have completed a procedure to fails in any way? I really don't know, because it has yet to occur, but I am sure that it will at some point given the volume of retrofit procedures that we carry out. I know that some people may not agree with my stance on this topic and thats perfectly fine, because we all have that right. I believe that our clients are bright enough to understand that the procedure "is what it is" and they always tell me that they appreciate the old fashioned, direct way in which I have built this company and carry out our operations and everything we do. Of course, those who do not agree with my terms that we state directly and up front do not have to do business with us and they can choose to go elsewhere, and they'll probably get that warm and fuzzy feeling and might even get to see a Unicorn jump over a Rainbow while they are there. Others may choose to do nothing, which is also fine.

Now, concerning the IMS Guardian:
This is something that has been in the works for over three years. It is a simple system that will alert the driver of an impending engine issue with enough advanced notice that action can be taken before collateral damage occurs. The system installs seamlessly into the stock vehicle dash and appears to be a factory fitted unit, it is a total stand alone unit that does not use ECU integration. More details will be released on the website when we return from summer shut down the week of July 11th.
I haven't posted here in a long while, but I am guilty of lurking, I made this post as I felt it was important that the members of this group at least are given the reasons in which I created the terms associated with the IMSR procedure in regard to warranty.

My understanding of the economics of warranties is that the manufacturer of a part does the proper diligence to minimize the likelihood of their part failing. They do some sort of analysis to determine the expected loss based on claims, and they build that into the price.

Sometimes they purchase insurance to cover claims against them, in which case they can negotiate a low rate with the insurance company, based on their demonstration to experts hired by the insurance company, that the product is solid and reliable.

In either of those cases, if your claims are correct, this would add a very minimal cost to your products and allow you to guarantee your products.

So regardless of the likelihood of failure, it is possible for even a small company to offer a warranty on a part. No company can guarantee 100% that their part won't fail and no reasonable person expects such a thing. But people who are purchasing parts for the purpose of peace of mind need a guarantee that if the part does fail, they won't get financially screwed.

Regarding your concern about being blamed for failures that have nothing to do with your parts, you have to realize that the consumers usually don't do the analysis themselves. They rely on experts -- such as local mechanics -- to determine the cause of the failure. If those mechanics believe that the cause is a broken part that is yours, negotiating with them is just a part of doing business.

Note that I'm not saying that doing all of this is fun or easy, just that it is possible, and there are lots of companies that successfully pull it off.

Boxsterra,
Thank you for that reply. I am well aware of the insurances that you mention and some of my products do have things like this in place. I do offer a one year unlimited mileage warranty on our reconstructed engines and have had two small claims that we had to take care of. The last one found me in Washington laying on my back replacing a camshaft in a customer's garage, but we exceeded his expectations and he was very happy that I made the trip.

The monetary liability of the warranty isn't what concerns me, as that is the cost of doing business, as you state, but thats just money. What does concern me is opening ourselves up to the group of people that only do something to gain a warranty (which can be nothing more than a false sense of security) on a component. I am fortunate enough to have built a business where we stay busier than we even want to be so much of the time. I have chosen the less stressful method of doing business, which means being direct and not over promising. I am coming to you from a facility that is bought and paid for, where I have built everything myself and have done so with cash money, all 3 buildings and 30,000 square feet, to include the lab and 3 dynos. We don't have to make every single sale to make me happy, and keep my employees fed, so I choose to deal with those who accept us for what we are and what we offer and have fun here everyday, living a much less stressful life than most reading this thread.

There is no dollar amount that can be put on a complaint or any negative situation where things turn into a "he said, she said" finger pointing exercise. It would be much different if the only thing we cared about was profit, money and didn't put as much heart into what we do, or how we provide it. I have operated on this piece of property since the age of 13, when i had my first paying customer for a complete engine, since that time I can count on one hand how many negative situations I have been in, but all it took was one to teach me my life lesson in "situations".

Trust me, if I could put a warranty on something, have it scatter into pieces and then get a single phone call where the customer called with a happy voice and said "Jake, my engine blew up, I want to use my warranty" that would be one thing.. If ALL I had to do was replay that happy voice in my head over and over for 2-3 months when I thought about it, and I could stroke the guy a check and never hear anything from him again, not have him spread rumors and etc. I would be happy as hell! That doesn't happen, and it can't because the money part of the situation is the least of what we have to endure when anything breaks.. The phone calls, disappointment and overall dent in the reputation is much, much worse, not to mention the loss of sleep.

Someone would have to run a business like mine, dealing with these engines to understand this as completely as I do and they would have to have built their brand from scratch to even care.

As I have stated many times before and have illustrated with graphic photos, not all IMS Bearing Failures are actually IMS bearing failures. The IMS gets a bulk of the blame because it is so well known.

To address the points you bring up:

It is by selling products and/or services that you are opening yourself up to scrutiny by the consumers, not by offering a guarantee on your products. A guarantee means that you will make good if your product fails, not that your product won't ever fail.

In my experience, the vast majority of customers who get great customer service when something goes wrong will highly praise the vendor. For example, how many complaints have you heard from Porsche owners whose problems have been covered by warranty? There will always be some naysayers and it is useless to try to control an entire population. In fact, attempts to control information and customers is viewed very negatively by those who are aware of it.

Porsche owners are much less concerned with the success of your business than with the terms and attitude under which you do business. Microsoft, Charles Ponzi, Saddam Hussein, and many others have been very successful building their businesses too.

A lot of people find it insulting when they hear someone say that they should just believe what you say because there is no way they could possibly understand. Many of us have started our own businesses and dealt with the related complexities. And most Porsche owners are intelligent and well-educated. If you have a point to make, you can just make it. We will understand and if we don't at first, we will ask you the relevant questions so that we do understand.

I know the details of your new product have not been released yet but are you saying that there are many ways in which the engine might fail that the Guardian will not detect? If that is the case, why have a device that will catch some small over-hyped subset of possible engine failures?

I 100% agree with your statement: "In my experience, the vast majority of customers who get great customer service when something goes wrong will highly praise the vendor. For example, how many complaints have you heard from Porsche owners whose problems have been covered by warranty?"

When my engine (IMS) failed on my 02 SYS, while on vacation, Porsche not only paid for my night in the hotel in Toledo, they picked up the rental car to get me to my final destination (didn't want to fly and needed a car anyway), and then on top of it, paid for a one-way plane ticket to get me home (why drive a Camry from Chicago to DC when it was supposed to be a Boxster?). They would have paid for my wife's as well, but I was meeting her there on her way back from a business trip, so she already had a ticket home. Even though one never wants to have such a terrible experience, the way Porsche handled it, gave me no pause whatsoever when it came time to buy a new car. In fact, I even purcahsed a more expensive one from them (911S Cab), once they engineered the IMS out of the new engine, of couse

So isn't it probable that those possible non IMS engine failure points like an IMS tensioner paddle, an IMS drive chain, tensioner paddle wear surfaces and so on, which can "fail and appear to be the IMS bearing", tend to overstate the easy diagnosis IMS failure rate to begin with?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2011 11:13AM by Gary in SoFL. (view changes)

Ok, so if I understand this, Jake, you do offer a 1 year warranty on the bearing (installed by your shop or a dealer that has been trained by you?), covering only that IMS bearing....right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2011 12:47PM by MikenOH. (view changes)

No, my company does not extend the warranty of one year to the bearing. That warranty is given to the bearing its self by LN Engineering. I suppose that if we had an occurrence that the purchaser could default to LN and that would be up to Charles as to what he would do.

I prefer to keep things simple, and I hope that my explanations helped some of you understand how I bade the terms of our service. The system has been very effective to date, with pleased purchasers, no hassles and tons of respect for our way of doing things which are so refreshing to a huge majority of those who do business with us. I don't plan on changing anything, but I do appreciate the input of the board.

The IMS Guardian SYSTEM will have a one year warranty.
Back to lurker mode, its been nice being back on the forum again. Have a good weekend.

If it doesn't work, the engine is toast. I would guess that it would not pay for a new engine - but would only replace the system. Isn't that sort of like a free replacement guaranty on a parachute? Just curious.
mike

The warranty covers the system. Not the engine. The systems that are bought directly from us will receive a 150% credit based from the purchase price of the system to be credited toward Flat 6 products or services to correct the engine issue.

I would NEVER warranty anything on the engine if the system didn't work, because dishonest people could disarm the system, blow the engine on purpose then reattach it saying it never worked. You guys want a guarantee from me, but how can I guarantee the integrity of thousands of purchasers?

Think about that. Like I said, I keep it simple.

OTOH, what good is any warranty if failure is most likely discovered when the engine is blown? At that point, replacing the IMS guardian system seems a waste of time. Sort of like throwing a new parachute on the body lying on the ground.

Hey, give Raby credit for being upfront about the product. No one at Porsche told me that my engine apparently hadn't been perfected and that they were still in the middle of searching for an IMS fix as they collected my $60K. All the M96 owners got from the company was the usual BS about "engineering excellence." By comparison, Raby's statement is a breath of fresh air.

Choose your BS carefully, grasshopper.

Spoken like an expert on the subject.

spoken like a snide snot

Another post that's of no value to anyone.

"Spoken like an expert on the subject."

I couldn't agree more. Boxsterra, follow the thread upward and see how my original comments about Raby and Porsche (and not directed to any posters on here, I might add) were quickly turned into a personal attack. If I'm attacked, I'll respond, although I would rather keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand. If anyone wants to see how IMS failure discussions are handled in a civil manner with respect for varying opinions and their posters, please visit Planet 9.