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KevinR-MedinaOhio - Thursday, 16 August, 2012, at 10:40:04 am |
Last week I had something happen to me while out in the Blue Box that I thought I would relate and ask for opinions.
It was a typical gorgeous day, and I was out in the Box with the top down, driving home from somewhere along a rural state route in the country. A new or newer, bronze-colored Corvette hard top approached me, our combined closing speed was <120mph (each going 60mph or less). When we passed each other the driver had the Corvette at such a high RPM that it actually hurt my ears. The decibels had to be in the dragster rev range, and was far higher than anything I have experienced off a race track. I didn't get a look at the driver as I was wincing.
Today, I passed the same car on the same road while in my SUV, and barely heard his car as it passed. I got a look at the driver this time, and it was your typical high-end sports car guy in his early or mid 50s.
Was this an example of someone showing contempt for other manufacturers' high-end cars, and has it happened to you?
Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.
It was a typical gorgeous day, and I was out in the Box with the top down, driving home from somewhere along a rural state route in the country. A new or newer, bronze-colored Corvette hard top approached me, our combined closing speed was <120mph (each going 60mph or less). When we passed each other the driver had the Corvette at such a high RPM that it actually hurt my ears. The decibels had to be in the dragster rev range, and was far higher than anything I have experienced off a race track. I didn't get a look at the driver as I was wincing.
Today, I passed the same car on the same road while in my SUV, and barely heard his car as it passed. I got a look at the driver this time, and it was your typical high-end sports car guy in his early or mid 50s.
Was this an example of someone showing contempt for other manufacturers' high-end cars, and has it happened to you?
Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.
| You meet all kinds on the road. He might have been trying to show you up.... MarcW - Thursday, 16 August, 2012, at 1:50:40 pm |
in some fashion.
I see this, or at least think I see it, sometimes.
It could be worse. Sometimes these drivers appear to see how close they can come to the rear of my car as they whip out and go around. And I'm not driving like a road boulder either, but sometimes with traffic so heavy one can't just change lanes when he wants to to make way for a faster car coming up from behind at just the right instant so the closing in car can keep its momentum.
Some drivers I think expect all other cars to part like the Red Sea did for Moses as they come up behind so these faster moving cars can continue their above the limit speeding unimpeded by 'lesser' cars.
Can add that when I was researching Covettes -- some months before I bought my new 02 Boxster -- some owners really buy into that sports car thing. There was a rash of Corvette engine oil consumption complaints and the short story is word came down from it was reported GM the engines were fitted with low tension rings to reduce internal friction. The side effect was under some conditions the engines would use more oil. GM's advice was to avoid high rpm usage.
Well, this created an uproar with some owners who said something to the effect they bought a Corvette for its sports car cred [a cred in part created/bolstered by a generous GM advertising budget] and they were darned if they were going to resort to driving the car like it had a old lumbering diesel engine.
In a few cases I read where some owners got re-ringed engines.
Anyhow, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that Corvette driver's actions. I pass many/encounter many Corvettes around where I live/drive and most do not pay me and either of my car's any attention. I can't remember ever getting "challenged" to a stop light race, at least by a Corvette owner.
And he might have been enjoying his car. I sometimes drive one of my cars in a sporty fashion, that is take the engine up to redline when I can -- such as accelerating onto the freeway -- simply to enjoy the thrill of the acceleration and the sounds. Even though I do this when there's is light traffic I often time pass other cars. I'm not showing their drivers' up. I just enjoying my car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I see this, or at least think I see it, sometimes.
It could be worse. Sometimes these drivers appear to see how close they can come to the rear of my car as they whip out and go around. And I'm not driving like a road boulder either, but sometimes with traffic so heavy one can't just change lanes when he wants to to make way for a faster car coming up from behind at just the right instant so the closing in car can keep its momentum.
Some drivers I think expect all other cars to part like the Red Sea did for Moses as they come up behind so these faster moving cars can continue their above the limit speeding unimpeded by 'lesser' cars.
Can add that when I was researching Covettes -- some months before I bought my new 02 Boxster -- some owners really buy into that sports car thing. There was a rash of Corvette engine oil consumption complaints and the short story is word came down from it was reported GM the engines were fitted with low tension rings to reduce internal friction. The side effect was under some conditions the engines would use more oil. GM's advice was to avoid high rpm usage.
Well, this created an uproar with some owners who said something to the effect they bought a Corvette for its sports car cred [a cred in part created/bolstered by a generous GM advertising budget] and they were darned if they were going to resort to driving the car like it had a old lumbering diesel engine.
In a few cases I read where some owners got re-ringed engines.
Anyhow, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that Corvette driver's actions. I pass many/encounter many Corvettes around where I live/drive and most do not pay me and either of my car's any attention. I can't remember ever getting "challenged" to a stop light race, at least by a Corvette owner.
And he might have been enjoying his car. I sometimes drive one of my cars in a sporty fashion, that is take the engine up to redline when I can -- such as accelerating onto the freeway -- simply to enjoy the thrill of the acceleration and the sounds. Even though I do this when there's is light traffic I often time pass other cars. I'm not showing their drivers' up. I just enjoying my car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
| Re: You meet all kinds on the road. He might have been trying to show you up.... TomBrand - Thursday, 16 August, 2012, at 10:38:12 pm |
I get this every day but from SUV's and Trucks. They always want to race especially when the weather is wet. When I beat them and get in front they like to flash their brights. idiots. I like to stay in front because they kick up stones while they are on their phones, constantly sliding into the shoulder and I don't care for the smell of diesel fumes or oil burners when I have the top down. Bottom line I have bigger balls and you know what the middle finger is for.
Tom Brand
Tom Brand
KevinR-MedinaOhio - Thursday, 16 August, 2012, at 11:15:40 pm |
I am convinced he was trying to prove "his was bigger than mine". The car must have been redlined. What a childish stunt. 
Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.
Driving a new-to-me '09S in Aqua Blue Metallic. It does .5 past light speed. I made the Kessel run in less than 12-parsecs.
Motto: If you have your top up, that storm outside had better have a name!
Motto 2: Having the top up on a convertible is an oxymoron. Don't be a (oxy)moron.
| Re: You meet all kinds on the road. Mstimely - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 6:54:40 am |
Loved this thread,
Truly a boxster with the top down illicits a certain response from the general public. Mostly envy...but every yahoo with a spoiler thinks the race is on just because they end up next to you at a red light. I personally pride myself on going low and slow. After all it gives all the rest more time to enjoy the view of fine German engineering.
Truly a boxster with the top down illicits a certain response from the general public. Mostly envy...but every yahoo with a spoiler thinks the race is on just because they end up next to you at a red light. I personally pride myself on going low and slow. After all it gives all the rest more time to enjoy the view of fine German engineering.
Laz - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 8:58:36 am |
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 09:01AM by Laz. (view changes)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 09:01AM by Laz. (view changes)
| I get those too, the majority of encounters are positive. Check that... MarcW - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 1:30:43 pm |
| For the most part me too - mostly kids - teens and pre-teens with thumbs up, nice car, etc. grant - Friday, 24 August, 2012, at 11:19:47 am |
Laz - Friday, 24 August, 2012, at 12:03:58 pm |
 *NM* Gary in SoFL - Friday, 24 August, 2012, at 12:48:08 pm |
Ed fromTampa ( formerly Long Island) - Saturday, 18 August, 2012, at 4:08:30 pm |
| Me too. One of my biggest peeves ever. It is imtimidation, aggressive driving... MarcW - Monday, 20 August, 2012, at 4:44:53 pm |
pure and simple and yet quite often I pass a CHP on the side of the road with a pickup truck or some other vehicle way too close and I have yet to see the CHP cruiser pull out and pull over the tailgater. But you can but sure if I'm running 10mph over the limit it would pull out and come after my car.
Generally speaking, traffic law enforcement in CA sucks. Really really sucks. If the radar gun doesn't beep an alarm there's no infraction.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
Generally speaking, traffic law enforcement in CA sucks. Really really sucks. If the radar gun doesn't beep an alarm there's no infraction.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
Laz - Monday, 20 August, 2012, at 5:50:54 pm |
Try the rear fog: it often worked for me. The 981's is centered* and looks more like a third brake light, which many people are conditioned to perceiving it as such. (Ok, that's some weird grammar.)
* Other than how it can fool someone into backing off, having it in the central backup light module makes it less "effective" as a rear fog because, well, it can be confusing and cause someone innocently following to brake unnecessarily in a poor visibility situation.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2012 05:57PM by Laz. (view changes)
* Other than how it can fool someone into backing off, having it in the central backup light module makes it less "effective" as a rear fog because, well, it can be confusing and cause someone innocently following to brake unnecessarily in a poor visibility situation.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2012 05:57PM by Laz. (view changes)
| You have just summarized why i have minimal respect for traffic law enforcement grant - Monday, 27 August, 2012, at 10:45:07 am |
Its about revenue and making numbers, pure and simple.
Enforcing the many serious dangerous habits is hard. People who tailgate, people who turn left in FRONT rather than going around ( as the law, and logic, dictate), people who travel in the left lane when they are not actively passing, people who pass on the right, weave in and out, text white driving, run yellow/red lights - these are all difficult but really dangerous.
Or, how about people who speed in residential areas? Where kids and dogs are present? That really burns me, especially since the majority here are moms in SUVs who wont let their kids walk the dangerous streets - guess why they might be dangerous huh?
Speeding is easy. Its even easier if they lay in hiding on a clear, open area with good radar access - exactly the environment in which driving fast is likely safe.
Ergo my near total lack of respect for the highway law enforcement.
Don't get me wrong, police officers do many valuable tasks. This just isn't one of them.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
Enforcing the many serious dangerous habits is hard. People who tailgate, people who turn left in FRONT rather than going around ( as the law, and logic, dictate), people who travel in the left lane when they are not actively passing, people who pass on the right, weave in and out, text white driving, run yellow/red lights - these are all difficult but really dangerous.
Or, how about people who speed in residential areas? Where kids and dogs are present? That really burns me, especially since the majority here are moms in SUVs who wont let their kids walk the dangerous streets - guess why they might be dangerous huh?
Speeding is easy. Its even easier if they lay in hiding on a clear, open area with good radar access - exactly the environment in which driving fast is likely safe.
Ergo my near total lack of respect for the highway law enforcement.
Don't get me wrong, police officers do many valuable tasks. This just isn't one of them.
Grant
Grant
gee-lenahan-at-gee-mail-dot-com
| Reminds me of the time on I-40 just inside the AZ border (heading east)... MarcW - Monday, 27 August, 2012, at 4:22:00 pm |
when an SUV in the slow lane changed lanes so unexpectedly the car in the fast lane and behind the SUV had to apply the brakes. I saw the brake lights come on.
The car was an AZ state police cruiser. Did the SUV get pulled over? No.
On another trip in my Turbo just before Williams and I was so tired I could hardly keep my eyes open. I pulled over -- safely to be sure -- and off the freeway and an AZ state police officer stopped me. I failed to signal. He made a big thing out of having me work the turn signal stalk. I think I was so tired I was actually working the on-board computer stalk. Anyhow, he gave me a warning and a big lecture about how to drive and oh by the way told me the radar detector and NAV unit were illlegal where they were placed and told me if I refused to move them he would confiscate them. 'course I complied with his order.
That speeding in residential areas is a laugh.
When I lived in Oak Grove MO a co-worker -- car nut -- lived nearby and at work he invited me over to look over his cars. He cautioned me about speeding in that area. I assured him I was not in the habit of speeding in any residential area and would be on my best best behavior.
When I got at his house he explained why he mentioned the speeding. He told me the neighbors had been complaining so much about speeding they forced the local police to set up speed traps at various times/places in that neighborhood.
Some weeks later I was talking with this co-worker and he mentioned the speed traps were halted. Guess why? Seems the speeders were the people that lived in that area. They were speeding and getting caught and cited.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
The car was an AZ state police cruiser. Did the SUV get pulled over? No.
On another trip in my Turbo just before Williams and I was so tired I could hardly keep my eyes open. I pulled over -- safely to be sure -- and off the freeway and an AZ state police officer stopped me. I failed to signal. He made a big thing out of having me work the turn signal stalk. I think I was so tired I was actually working the on-board computer stalk. Anyhow, he gave me a warning and a big lecture about how to drive and oh by the way told me the radar detector and NAV unit were illlegal where they were placed and told me if I refused to move them he would confiscate them. 'course I complied with his order.
That speeding in residential areas is a laugh.
When I lived in Oak Grove MO a co-worker -- car nut -- lived nearby and at work he invited me over to look over his cars. He cautioned me about speeding in that area. I assured him I was not in the habit of speeding in any residential area and would be on my best best behavior.
When I got at his house he explained why he mentioned the speeding. He told me the neighbors had been complaining so much about speeding they forced the local police to set up speed traps at various times/places in that neighborhood.
Some weeks later I was talking with this co-worker and he mentioned the speed traps were halted. Guess why? Seems the speeders were the people that lived in that area. They were speeding and getting caught and cited.
Sincerely,
MarcW.
| Cynicism mikefocke, '01S Sanford, NC - Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, at 2:00:21 pm |
I live in a gated community. Means the roads aren't public. Local law has no jurisdiction and school bus only drops kids off by the gate and they walk or are picked up to go the last few miles. No sidewalks. Speed limit 25MPH. 2 really serious accidents last month. No idea if the accidents were speed or just failure to pay attention (I suspect the latter as both involved a car and a golf-car or bike). This invited discussions about allowing sheriff in to enforce speed limits. Vote was no because they wouldn't want to catch residents coming back from the club DWI.
| Re: An Example of... m2 - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 12:13:40 pm |
Yesterday while road biking with my daughter a motorcycle passed close to me and gave the loud pipe open throttle rev. I immediately thought of this thread... and small dick, loud pipe mentality. Funny... as there is a guy who drives a big piped Viper that does the same thing whenever he gets a chance. It has only occurred next to me while going up climbs... so if the driver is trying to match gears he's lacking in real skills :^)
Just lunkheads...
Just lunkheads...
Laz - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 12:51:18 pm |
| Re: My dad used to say, "Empty barrels make the most noise." chrismmm - Saturday, 25 August, 2012, at 8:40:50 am |
in my area i get a lot of gawkers, interested kids, tailgaters that want to read the tag or lisc plate holder (mine says 82d Airborne Division), people stop me and ask me what year its is (i could tell them it is a 2011 and they would not know the difference. I especially love it when more expensive "luxury" cars pull up or near and look over my car..until i look over at them and catch them peeking, heads snap back into place of course, hilarious! In myexperiences on the road people will start down a porsche while ignoring Mbenzs, vettes, nissan 350s/370s, beamers, caddys, etc.
Love it!
chrismmm: 2007-987 . jet black . north georgia
PCA PST member
Love it!
chrismmm: 2007-987 . jet black . north georgia
PCA PST member
| From a different perspective Guenter in Ontario - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 2:04:59 pm |
A lot of posts here seem to be assuming that the other car is "trying to be better" "trying to show me up". Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe the other driver was just enjoying the sound of his/her engine. Maybe he/she was in a hurry.
I know I have loved the sound of the Symphony in Flat Six for years. In the years before I was able to buy my Boxster, whenever I pulled up beside a Porsche at a red light, I'd always roll down my window, rain or shine, cross my fingers and hope that the driver was in a big hurry when the light turned green.
In terms of reaction from other people, it's seldom that I'm out in the CURVEN8R that I don't get at least one compliment, whether it's a kid on the sidewalk calling out "NICE car", someone coming over and asking about the car, or in the case of one older gentleman sitting in his car, staring at the CURVEN8R, when I came out of a store and said to me, "That is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen" (Good thing his wife wasn't in the car at the time.
)
The few negative comments I've received have been out of jealousy. Usually from the driver of an old rusted out car. Do I get upset about those comments? Nope. I just consider the source of the comment. Just makes me appreciate that I'm fortunate enough to be able to drive one of these cars.
Maybe the other driver was just enjoying the sound of his/her engine. Maybe he/she was in a hurry.
I know I have loved the sound of the Symphony in Flat Six for years. In the years before I was able to buy my Boxster, whenever I pulled up beside a Porsche at a red light, I'd always roll down my window, rain or shine, cross my fingers and hope that the driver was in a big hurry when the light turned green.
In terms of reaction from other people, it's seldom that I'm out in the CURVEN8R that I don't get at least one compliment, whether it's a kid on the sidewalk calling out "NICE car", someone coming over and asking about the car, or in the case of one older gentleman sitting in his car, staring at the CURVEN8R, when I came out of a store and said to me, "That is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen" (Good thing his wife wasn't in the car at the time.
)The few negative comments I've received have been out of jealousy. Usually from the driver of an old rusted out car. Do I get upset about those comments? Nope. I just consider the source of the comment. Just makes me appreciate that I'm fortunate enough to be able to drive one of these cars.
| Re: From a different perspective Roger987 - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 3:57:56 pm |
My experience is similar, Guenter. I'm routinely getting thumbs up from a whole range of people - kids on on bikes, teens, 20 somethings, and elegant older ladies sitting with their dog on a park bench.
Yes, I've experienced my share of jackasses, often in beat-up cars with 'handles' on the back (nasty big spoilers) for whom the mere presence of my car prompts them to want to race. I ignore them, and if they are unrelenting, I'll actually take an exit just to get clear of them.
If it's someone who wants to go faster, he can fill his boots. If it's someone who thinks his car will keep up with mine in the twisties, he's going to be sorely disappointed after about the third turn.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 03:59PM by Roger987. (view changes)
Yes, I've experienced my share of jackasses, often in beat-up cars with 'handles' on the back (nasty big spoilers) for whom the mere presence of my car prompts them to want to race. I ignore them, and if they are unrelenting, I'll actually take an exit just to get clear of them.
If it's someone who wants to go faster, he can fill his boots. If it's someone who thinks his car will keep up with mine in the twisties, he's going to be sorely disappointed after about the third turn.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 03:59PM by Roger987. (view changes)
| Re: An Example of Sports Car Snobbery? decay - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 3:23:52 pm |
Not an example of sports car snobbery, per se, but a couple of months ago, I was at a stop light next to a souped up F-150. He peeled out on green, and weaved in and out cars and proceeded to get up to about 100mph in a 50 and was clear out of sight. I motored along at about 55 for a minute or two (top down), and smelled what I thought was a brush fire. As I continued, the smell got stronger. A little bit more and there was some smoke to accompany the odor. By the time I got to my turn, I looked ahead about a half mile, and there he was parked in the median, with flashers on, and smoke billowing from the back of his ride. I got a huge chuckle out of that. Wonder how much that cost him.
| Re: An Example of Sports Car Snobbery? TomBrand - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 4:06:23 pm |
Since I have had the Boxster:
Pickup truck driver threw out a cup of coffee at me---luckily I swerved, this happened twice with different pickups.
Someone spit a hawker on the drivers side door while I was in IHOP for breakfast.
Pickup nearly rolled while trying to keep on a turn.
SUV was losing it when tracking me at 110mph.
Just to mention a few----the funniest thing ever said---A corvette guy asked me, how I liked the Boxster because he was thinking of buying his wife one. I responded in pure brilliance,
" Funny you sau that, I just bought a new vette for my wife and sister"
Pickup truck driver threw out a cup of coffee at me---luckily I swerved, this happened twice with different pickups.
Someone spit a hawker on the drivers side door while I was in IHOP for breakfast.
Pickup nearly rolled while trying to keep on a turn.
SUV was losing it when tracking me at 110mph.
Just to mention a few----the funniest thing ever said---A corvette guy asked me, how I liked the Boxster because he was thinking of buying his wife one. I responded in pure brilliance,
" Funny you sau that, I just bought a new vette for my wife and sister"
 Burg Boxster - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 4:40:32 pm |
I wonder what the PSE wink-wink acronym really is since apparently it serves to help one compensate for other short comings.
Gosh, let alone what it says about those w/ aftermarket Fabspeed/AWE/etc. set-ups...
* exclusively in that I come across basically the same % of jackasses per miles driven in my DD as I do in my therapy car. Though in my therapy car I am more diligent to excuse/remove myself/car from the circumstances more expeditiously (i.e. turning off, etc.).
Gosh, let alone what it says about those w/ aftermarket Fabspeed/AWE/etc. set-ups...
* exclusively in that I come across basically the same % of jackasses per miles driven in my DD as I do in my therapy car. Though in my therapy car I am more diligent to excuse/remove myself/car from the circumstances more expeditiously (i.e. turning off, etc.).
Boxsterra - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 9:36:19 pm |
| Re: An Example of Sports Car Snobbery? db997S - Monday, 20 August, 2012, at 3:03:34 pm |
Boxsterra - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 9:41:34 pm |
He was driving his car at redline. Lots of sports car drivers do that regularly. They're just enjoying their cars. His car had a loud exhaust before he saw you.
He might have even just missed a downshift while he was gawking at your car.
Unless there's something relevant you're not mentioning the situation seems totally normal.
He might have even just missed a downshift while he was gawking at your car.
Unless there's something relevant you're not mentioning the situation seems totally normal.
| I didnt post because i was confused too. grant - Friday, 17 August, 2012, at 9:46:42 pm |
| Re: An Example of ???? dak911 - Sunday, 19 August, 2012, at 9:47:47 am |
Laz - Sunday, 19 August, 2012, at 10:00:55 am |
Laz - Sunday, 19 August, 2012, at 3:42:48 pm |
Was at a local farm store with an open front, and was talking to a guy who's a mechanic. He waxed enthusiastically over it and while we were talking an old lady in a PT Cruiser pulled along side and started admiring it, too. Then some other guy said as he was going to his Jeep, "Yeah, but it's not American. Think about where your money's going." His appearance and speech came across as bumpkin-ish, so I immediately figured intellectual repartee would be lost on him. Just looked up Jeep's composition by country of origin: depending on the model, it's 30% furrin, so I suppose on principle he's torn 30% of his vehicle out. The mechanic, the old lady, and I went back to our bonhomie. Two for three still ain't bad.
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2012 03:43PM by Laz. (view changes)
Minus 40 degrees... Is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2012 03:43PM by Laz. (view changes)
| Never had a negative encounter Lawdevil & CURVN8R - Sunday, 19 August, 2012, at 4:35:24 pm |
Laz - Monday, 20 August, 2012, at 11:02:50 am |
| Re: An Example of Sports Car Snobbery? garyinseattle - Monday, 20 August, 2012, at 12:48:41 pm |
I recently changed from a 987 to 997s Cab. I find that I don't get nearly as many comments on the 911 as I did on the Boxster. Several negative looks in the 911, and I almost think that part of it is that the Boxster seems to be a more approachable car for many people, while the 911 may have a somewhat stereotype of being driven by a D-bag. On the positive side, Porsche owners seem to really respond positively to the 997, and i don't hear as many 'stories' of why I bought this car versus some other car by 911 owners.
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